LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

The place for all discussion on gaming hardware
fluffymadness
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:31 pm

LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by fluffymadness »

Hi guys. Since CRT's are slowly dying, and some people including me don't really like the motion blur that comes with an lcd when bullets in shmups are moving at high speed over the screen or when the background is scrolling fast....

Basically this thread is for raising awareness that there are some possibilities to mitigate motion blur on an lcd to get a tad nearer to a crt in terms of motion clarity
Also hopefully some devs see this and no longer hardlock the framerate to 60fps in shmups.

First I want to say thanks to blurbusters.com, for the huge amount of technical details, ressources and articles that gave me an in-depth understanding of the whole topic.
Most of the info in the summary below will be found in some form or another on this site, so I recommend everyone to take a look at their articles who want to further immerse in this topic.

So how does motion blur look, and what are the difference compared to a crt?
Image

Ok, so how do I reduce this this problem?

Basically with modern LCD's the major solution to this problem is:

- Higher Refresh Rate e.g 120hz,144hz...

But this does only work with newer games, that support this high refreshrates and which are not framelocked at 60fps.

So, how does a higher refresh rate reduce blur?

Lcd\Led Monitors are based on the sample and hold technique. Basically when you have 60fps, one frame has a duration of 1/60fps = ~16ms
The leds hold the frame for this amount of time, and then change to the next.
This is what generates the motion blur for the human eye.
When you have a higher refresh rate, e.g 120hz the perceived motion blur is cut in half since the sample and hold delay is now only 1/120fps = ~8ms

When you take a look at the graphic above, you'll see it improves quite a lot. But it is still not on crt level which has a picture persistence of just 1.4ms due to phosphor glow.
It flickers, but motion blur is kinda non-existent because of that flicker.

However you can still improve it a bit further, by using the following feature:

- Backlight Strobing

Backlight Strobing

It basically turns the backlight from the screen off for a certain amount of time for an ongoing frame, producing a crt like flicker.
This feature is called Lightboost, Blur Reduction, or Ultra Low Motion Blur(Nvidia cards only) depending on the monitor you have.
Most of the time this feature is only available at 120hz Refresh Rate or more, so you can't use it with older games or games that are framelocked at 60fps.
Some monitors allow for single strobing (Backlight strobing at 60hz), however this flickers more notably than a crt with 60hz
To get a list of supported monitors for this feature:
https://www.blurbusters.com/faq/120hz-monitors/
The shorter the strobe light flash, the more clearer the motion but the more screen brightness you will lose.

Black Frame Insertion

Good news on this one. It can be used for old games that are run on an emulator. Groovymame and retroarch support it perfectly.
Since the Framerate is locked on older Spritebase shmups and you can't really do anything about it, this is a nice solution to still get your blur reduction fix.
Basically your screen refresh rate is 120hz, but you'll spread out the 60fps while rendering, each 2nd frame is a completely black picture.
Screen brightness is reduced to 50%, however motion blur is also reduced quite significantly.
You can combine this feature with Backlight strobing for even more blur reduction.


The list

I'm trying to compile a list of shmups for PC to give an overview of which games are framelocked and which games natively support more than 60fps, so that screens with 120hz or more can be used for blur reduction.
Hopefully this list will grow a bit in the future with more shmups that are not tied to 60fps.

R=Name &Platform &Type &Tate &Framelocked R=Caladrius Blaze &PC &Vertical &- &Yes R=DARIUSBURST Chronicle Saviours &PC &Vertical &- &Yes R=Eschatos &PC &Vertical &Yes &Yes R=Pawarumi &PC &Vertical &- &No R=Raiden IV &PC &Vertical &Yes &Yes R=Raiden V &PC &Vertical &No &Yes R=REVOLVER360 RE:ACTOR &PC &Horizontal &- &Yes R=Shikhondo Soul Eater &PC &Vertical &No &Yes R=Skyforce Reloaded &PC &Vertical &- &No? R=Strania - The Stella Machina &PC &Vertical &- &Yes


So, if you know any shmups on steam that are framelocked or not framelocked, please tell me, so I can add it to the list.
A good way to find out: Turn Vsync off in the control panel of your graphics card, activate a framecounter in steam or use something like fraps.
Set your screen Refreshrate to 120hz or more.
If the framecounter in the game still says 60fps after that, or the game is running at turbo speed, it is locked/tied to 60fps
Last edited by fluffymadness on Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:45 pm, edited 6 times in total.
fluffymadness
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:31 pm

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by fluffymadness »

*Reserved*
Anim8
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:22 am

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by Anim8 »

As most/all are locked to 60fps and the fact most monitors can't strobe at 60hz.
I think the best option would be to use some form of software based black frame insertion.

But as in a hook for DX9,10,11,OGL etc which outputs a black frame for every other frame.

Maybe this can be done using reshade?
Something like, (note i have no idea how to write a reshade filter)
framecount=yes
if framenumber=odd; then output black frame etc

I'm not sure if this is possible or not with reshade, anyone?
You would need a 120hz monitor using this method in much the same way as retroarch.
User avatar
SNK-NEO-GEO
Posts: 541
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:58 pm
Location: zip code 20151 USA

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by SNK-NEO-GEO »

thanks for posting, good info..
A link to enable black frame insertion in Groovymame would be great to use with LCD monitors.

in another note - "Basically your screen refresh rate is 120hz, but you'll spread out the 60fps while rendering, each 2nd frame is a completely black picture" A fellow member mentioned setting 120hz on Groovymame to use with a Mitsubishi XM 27" CRT because the Mitsubishi XM 27" supports the 120hz refresh rate and this would decrease lag in gaming with GroovyMame. I am not sure if this is the same as Black Frame insertion but has anyone tried that? is this something that is recommended on CRTs that support 120hz?
The Future Is Now
fluffymadness
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:31 pm

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by fluffymadness »

SNK-NEO-GEO wrote:thanks for posting, good info..
A link to enable black frame insertion in Groovymame would be great to use with LCD monitors.

in another note - "Basically your screen refresh rate is 120hz, but you'll spread out the 60fps while rendering, each 2nd frame is a completely black picture" A fellow member mentioned setting 120hz on Groovymame to use with a Mitsubishi XM 27" CRT because the Mitsubishi XM 27" supports the 120hz refresh rate and this would decrease lag in gaming with GroovyMame. I am not sure if this is the same as Black Frame insertion but has anyone tried that? is this something that is recommended on CRTs that support 120hz?
To use 120hz with groovymame and also blackframeinsertion with lcd

If you are using an lcd, make the following edits in the mame.ini.

Code: Select all

lcd_range                 60-120
black_frame_insertion     1
and set your screen refresh rate to 120hz. Then it should work

For CRT....does the Mitsubishi CRT support 640x480 120hz ?
For every 31khz VGA CRT you can use 240p at 120hz if you have a compatible ati card and use crt emudriver

When you set 120hz you'll effectively double the rendering, render each image twice,but I'm not quite sure why it can decrease inputlag in mame.
However you'll have some kind of image doubling effect with 120hz if you don't activate blackframeinsertion in the mame.ini

If you want to reduce input lag effectively, i think it's better to use frame_delay in the groovymame ini.
Basically frame delay improves input lag by pushing the input polling and rendering closer to when the frame will actually be displayed.
However, you'll need quite a beefy cpu to handle the highest value in groovy mame which is frame_delay 9
About 4ghz Single core is recommended ^^

Also set video to d3d in the ini.

Code: Select all

video d3d
This also reduces lag, because this way groovymame will use d3dex as backend.

Another thing is that some cheap encoders for arcadesticks also have some hardware lag, you can probably shave off some ms in that area too.
Last edited by fluffymadness on Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.
fluffymadness
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:31 pm

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by fluffymadness »

Anim8 wrote:As most/all are locked to 60fps and the fact most monitors can't strobe at 60hz.
I think the best option would be to use some form of software based black frame insertion.

But as in a hook for DX9,10,11,OGL etc which outputs a black frame for every other frame.

Maybe this can be done using reshade?
Something like, (note i have no idea how to write a reshade filter)
framecount=yes
if framenumber=odd; then output black frame etc

I'm not sure if this is possible or not with reshade, anyone?
You would need a 120hz monitor using this method in much the same way as retroarch.
It would be awesome, if someone could get this going.
Anim8
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:22 am

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by Anim8 »

fluffymadness wrote:
Anim8 wrote:As most/all are locked to 60fps and the fact most monitors can't strobe at 60hz.
I think the best option would be to use some form of software based black frame insertion.

But as in a hook for DX9,10,11,OGL etc which outputs a black frame for every other frame.

Maybe this can be done using reshade?
Something like, (note i have no idea how to write a reshade filter)
framecount=yes
if framenumber=odd; then output black frame etc

I'm not sure if this is possible or not with reshade, anyone?
You would need a 120hz monitor using this method in much the same way as retroarch.
It would be awesome, if someone could get this going.
Came across this thread over at blurbusters

https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopi ... 223#p24542
Ask and ye shall receive!

A BFI shader for MPC-HC.

Step 1) Save this HLSL code to BFI.hlsl:
--------------------------

// BFI Shader for Blurbusters.com
// Author RLBURNSIDE
// Public domain - use as you wish

sampler s0 : register(s0);

float4 main(float2 tex : TEXCOORD0) : COLOR
{
// Set your 3D projector to SBS 3D mode and voila, the right half of the image side is black and the left side contains the entire frame, squeezed in
if (tex.x < 0.5)
{
tex.x *= 2.0;
float4 colour = tex2D(s0, tex);
return colour;
}
else
{
return float4(0,0,0,0);
}
}

--------------------------

Step 2) Drop it into : C:\Program Files (x86)\MPC-HC\Shaders (you will need admin rights)
Step 3) Add it to Post-resize shaders. (View->Options->Playback->Shaders)
Step 4) Watch a movie or tv show in MPC-HC fullscreen
Step 5) Activate SBS 3D mode on your projector

It should also work for any game as a post processing effect via SweetFX or similar. Might need some minor code tweaks depending on the interface.

Took me 2 minutes :)

ps make sure your 3D settings show the left eye first, otherwise you will incur an 8.33 ms latency hit. All projectors support swapping eyes or you can just change the sign on the shader inequality then subtract 0.5 (right before the *= 2.0 line)
Last edited by Anim8 on Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Xer Xian
Posts: 881
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Italy

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by Xer Xian »

Being a console gamer, I'd rather have a hardware/built-in display motion blur reduction solution for 60Hz content (HD console games). It looks like there's just a handful of monitors that have this feature, all made by benq and now discountinued. Everyone also seems to complain about excessive flickering with 60Hz strobing, so I don't know if that was even a sensible way to go in the first place..

I wonder why there's no talk about a rolling-scan OLED. Combining CRT-like scanning with OLED's instant pixel transitions would make for great motion resolution at even 60Hz refresh and with little or no side-effects except a dimmed picture. At CES LG showed a gimmick-y rollable OLEDs prototype instead. :lol:

Anyway, good thread. As for the list, all 'classic' shmups that made it on Steam will be locked at 60Hz for sure..
User avatar
SNK-NEO-GEO
Posts: 541
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:58 pm
Location: zip code 20151 USA

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by SNK-NEO-GEO »

@fluffymadness - thanks for the info on the Groovymame LCD settings..I will give that a try. I have an LCD monitor that support Ultra Low Motion Blur and goes up top 144khz which is on the list.. I need to test things out and see how GroovyMAME works on that LCD:).


For my CRT setup - I do have GroovyMAME with a compatible ati card and use crt emu driver for 15khz\31khz gaming connected to the Mitsubishi XM plus..

"does the Mitsubishi CRT support 640x480 120hz ?" Not use..Never looked into that. But maybe the member was talking about a different subject but I do remember him mentioning to set groovymame to 120hz.. I will reach out to the member and find more info. thanks
The Future Is Now
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by Xyga »

@X-X; there's a lot to desire but no existing blur reduction method is without its downsides. Still a long, long road. Especially when you consider all the unresolved issues + not everyone having the same expectations (remember retrogaming is the 5th wheel) + all the proprietary tech shit. ^^
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
Anim8
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:22 am

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by Anim8 »

Xer Xian wrote:It looks like there's just a handful of monitors that have this feature, all made by benq and now discountinued.
Not quite discontinued. If your still interested in the gaming branded BenQ monitors they do still sell them, just re-branded and sold under the Zowie Brand.
BenQ xl2720z is now sold as Zowie xl2720, which can single strobe at 60hz

http://www.benq.com.au/product/monitor/xl2720z/ (discontinued)
https://zowie.benq.com/en/product/monit ... l2720.html (Current)
User avatar
Xer Xian
Posts: 881
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Italy

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by Xer Xian »

Xyga wrote:@X-X; there's a lot to desire but no existing blur reduction method is without its downsides. Still a long, long road. Especially when you consider all the unresolved issues + not everyone having the same expectations (remember retrogaming is the 5th wheel) + all the proprietary tech shit. ^^
Yes, but you will agree that out of all the methods available, rolling-scan on a fast emissive display is the best - apply that to an OLED and you sort of end up with a fixed-pixel CRT :o it might even help alleviating burn-in since pixels will stay off for the most part of the refresh.. as you said in some other thread, it's featured in Sony's OLED PVM/BVM monitors, it just needs to make its way onto consumer products (and no I don't mean the Oculus VR glasses).
Anim8 wrote:Not quite discontinued. If your still interested in the gaming branded BenQ monitors they do still sell them, just re-branded and sold under the Zowie Brand.
I didn't know that, thanks! A bit of shame that BenQ didn't allow to set strobe lenght on the menus (I'd have no way of using Blurbusters' utility with consoles), but still this is definitely under my radar now (currently it's seriously overpriced in Europe.. 400+ euros everywhere vs 249 dolla in the US).
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by Xyga »

@Xer Xian, yes and no, rolling scan @60hz flickers visibly too, and what about off-refresh rates etc. As for it to become a consumer sets thing, I just don't have faith it'll happen tomorrow nor the day after. I think manufacturers of consumer produtcs are afraid of investing too much r&d money into blur reduction for mainstream usage because they're well aware of the limits in that area. Just look, Sony sets have strobing, who uses it for gaming? ULMB is a thing on g-sync equipped monitors, who really uses it for gaming sessions? Going back to Sony and other manufacturers they offer great combinations of frame interpolation and insertion, some work great but can't be done without tons of lag, therefore nobody uses them for gaming.
Etc etc, not a single existing blur reduction technique can be considered good-enough for all types of game source material and prolonged use. higher frame rates (120+) is the current best method imho, but yet again not very flexible when it comes to retro gaming.
Sorry for the pessimism, but I like to think I'm a product realist, this is a very difficult area of practice/research after all.
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
Anim8
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:22 am

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by Anim8 »

Xer Xian wrote:I didn't know that, thanks! A bit of shame that BenQ didn't allow to set strobe lenght on the menus (I'd have no way of using Blurbusters' utility with consoles), but still this is definitely under my radar now (currently it's seriously overpriced in Europe.. 400+ euros everywhere vs 249 dolla in the US).
Well you will be happy to know everything you can set via the Blurbusters' utility can be done in monitors OSD, but its "hidden" in the service menu.

To access it on the xl2720, hold buttons 3 and 4 with power off for 5+ seconds, and then press the power button while continuing to hold the buttons down. This will unlock the factory menu, which looks like: https://i.imgur.com/0LwcqPJ.jpg

https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopi ... =13&t=2467
User avatar
Xer Xian
Posts: 881
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Italy

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by Xer Xian »

Anim8 wrote:Well you will be happy to know everything you can set via the Blurbusters' utility can be done in monitors OSD
Yeah definitely! And thanks for the link too, that's a fairly long wall text, I will save it for later today.

@Xyga - I don't know about other people, I can't quite detect 60Hz CRT flickering so I'd be glad to have rolling-scan OLEDs. Maybe with adjustable persistence to find the sweet spot between flickering and blur reduction. I have no technical knowledge so I wouldn't know how or if it can be implemented at non-standard or even variable refresh rates, but as far as I know this applies to strobing and BFI as well. As for it not being likely to hit consumers' domain, who knows, maybe you're right, I'm not holding my breath for it in any case since 90% of my gaming time is spent on good ol' CRTs :)
bigbadboaz
Posts: 1135
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:08 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by bigbadboaz »

Rolling scan would be a significant improvement even at 60Hz, but you can bet your ass it isn't coming. The sample-and-hold issue has driven me crazy as long as I've known about it, and in the same period of time it's become very clear there is just no incentive for manufacturers to do the R&D.
Ikaruga11
Posts: 1454
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:32 pm

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by Ikaruga11 »

Yeah, motion clarity is awful on LCDs compared to CRTs. I could easily tell when playing Twilight Princess HD on my IPS monitor.
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by Xyga »

On a 'normal' sample and hold lcd 60Hz can't show great motion and it's especially apparent with fast scrolling and quick polygonal 3D games yeah.

BUT, and it's a big BUT(t) it varies quite a bit depending on several factors specs and performance, like response and RTC/overdrive, PWM (or not), resolution and source colors etc

A panel (assuming LED backlit) without crappy PWM and good balanced pixel overdrive makes a quite visible difference vs one that lacks both.

OLEDs are the second best for 60Hz motion after plasmas because they're like LCDs with all the sources of blur - all but sample and hold - eliminated.
I'm wating a couple of years to see what they'll do of hdmi 2.1 and possible strobing/bfi, but even if those end up disappointing I'll still get an OLED for all my console and arcade stuff.
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
bigbadboaz
Posts: 1135
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:08 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by bigbadboaz »

Yeah, I have a "good" LCD and there are no issues at all with certain types of motion: i.e. most of your modern 3D type games look freakin' great no matter what's going on onscreen. Unfortunately, it seems like flat-plane 2D scrolling is where sample-and-hold becomes a problem. It really fucks with any retrogaming, and field scrolling while watching live sports has the same smeary quality to it.
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by Xyga »

[rant warning: replying and taking the opportunity to develop my previous post point, but still on-topic :p]

Well I thought it was usually the opposite lol, less annoying with 2D than 3D (what's your model out of curiosity?)
Maybe it's got to do with our habits and resolution output and clarity, often the 3D stuff we play comes from PC or HD console and matches the panel's native resolution = clarity. While retro stuff is often uspscaled, softened and 'scanlined'.

What I do with retro sources on LCD now is using the sharpest output with only a tiny bit of whatever means of softening available. No frills.
Emulation-wise that means using integer scaling, no heavy shaders or blurry filters, no crt simulation.
Same with the OSSC, I use x2 and x3 less often than x4 and x5, the more shakey and movey a game the better it looks in motion with higher multiples and no fake lines (especially if they're going against the scrolling direction!).
The softening is done by the panel's natural pixel ghosting while in motion, and it looks considerably better that way.

NOTE: this is why good response balance with well-adjusted overdrive and no inverse ghosting, also no PWM backlighting, is absolutely crucial. People focus too much on features like HDR and blur reduction nowadays where they expect miracles, but the basic specs and performance of the panel and backlight are more important for all of our 60Hz locked stuff, and affect everything beyond anyway, be it higher refreshes or strobing etc.

For the more 'quiet' games I still use x2 and x3 sometimes even with an additional touch of softening either from my monitor's own sharpness settings or from a secondary processor like a DVDO (less often now since my current monitor does well by itself)


TL;DR of course a direct comparison with a CRT always hurts but avoiding bad quality and performance LCD monitors and turning off too blurry filters/shaders and fake scanlines when they oppose motion direction also greatly helps with overall motion clarity and perception, even at 60Hz sample-and-hold.


EDIT: forgot to mention the 360 shmups ports, in particular those lacking high-res redrawn graphics only offering crappy filters, well the same rules apply, they look so much better in motion while minding to keep the integers and turning the filters off. Of course a display that can overscan by itself or a DVDO is necessary for those who can't stand big borders.
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
bigbadboaz
Posts: 1135
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:08 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by bigbadboaz »

I have the famous Sony 800B - didn't find it as great for gaming as was hyped. Yes, it was among the best for input lag at the time, but motion isn't great at all.

I don't actually run filters for the most part - just the original 2D bitmaps coming through as intended, and they smear. If I had to guess, filters might actually help: the image being softer to begin with would downplay the blur effect once it began to move.

You're right that most of the 3D I run is input directly at 1080p, but then again my retro stuff is technically the same, even if it's upscaled first by the outputting console.

Dunno. I do think that different TVs have different blur characteristics, both due to panel type and particular companies' processing methods. And overall, it's safe to say that as far as LCD may have come, it's ultimately all still "lipstick on a pig".
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by Xyga »

bigbadboaz wrote:I have the famous Sony 800B - didn't find it as great for gaming as was hyped. Yes, it was among the best for input lag at the time, but motion isn't great at all.
You'll always see smearing on LCDs but typically more on TVs as the panels of those are commonly driven slower than monitors and don't offer any adjustable RTC/overdrive.
No mistake the W800B is 'good' for gaming but there's so much an LCD TV can do with 60Hz sources, they're no OLEDs or plasmas, not even pc monitors.
It's important to know what to expect.

For instance I have a 42W650A very similar to the W800B since it's a Sony VA of the same era, and some full-hd monitors to compare; a 32" Samsung VA that's clearly more responsive than the W6, two 32" IPS (LG and ViewSonic) even more responsive, and one 27" HP IPS beating all of the previous, and I'm still talking basic 60Hz sample and hold PWM-free so the conditions are the same for all mentioned displays.
All the same resolution, refresh and backlight, and between the Sony and the HP the difference in motion blur/perception is almost shocking.
Yet in terms of average pixel response between the two and in general the Sony vs all these monitors, we're probably talking of a difference of about 5~8ms, at worst. Enough to leave one in the realm of TVs and the others in that of monitors.
Personally I don't sit very close to my TV so its blur level is no big deal, it would be if I sat as close as I do with my monitors though.
Lots of people now use big TVs almost like they're monitors, sure technically they're the same, but TV manufacturers don't think like us, they don't feel they need to provide TV panels driven as fast as monitor's.
bigbadboaz wrote:I don't actually run filters for the most part - just the original 2D bitmaps coming through as intended, and they smear. If I had to guess, filters might actually help: the image being softer to begin with would downplay the blur effect once it began to move.

You're right that most of the 3D I run is input directly at 1080p, but then again my retro stuff is technically the same, even if it's upscaled first by the outputting console

Sorry I'm a bit confused, not sure I understand what you use, what source, what games, what machine settings, what settings on the TV when playing the retro stuff, it gives me a feeling you're not in an optimal configuration.
Again filters can't downplay the blur, they do exactly the opposite because they reduce the details, colors and contrast of the source, scaling with interpolation does the same (I know shaders mindful to not hurt colors and details output exist but I rarely see mention of those)

Mmh..I don't know how to better explain what I mean, maybe: you can't change the blur of you display, but it will appear worse if you use an already blurred and faded picture.
Formulated differently; blurring the details and fading colors and contrast away is what smearing basically does, so by adding a smoothing filter you actually increase/double the picture degradation when it's in motion.
On LCDs smoothing filters and more or less fancy shaders, imitating crt/scanlines or not, look good when still, but most make everything worse in motion.
Vibrant and sharp is what you want on a 60hz LCD (or only very gentle smoothing)
bigbadboaz wrote:Dunno. I do think that different TVs have different blur characteristics, both due to panel type and particular companies' processing methods
All TVs have different specs and performance directly related to blur/motion, indeed and of course. But if playing in 'game mode' as intended then processing shouldn't play any role, except in regards to the TV's own scaling, which is better to bypass by using native output or closest if possible.
bigbadboaz wrote:And overall, it's safe to say that as far as LCD may have come, it's ultimately all still "lipstick on a pig".
In regards to blur and processing? Yes, I agree. Some LCD TVs and monitors have pushed the performance of each panel type to what I believe are their limits (response, colors, motion, lag etc), but they're still not good enough, same for HDR etc, in the end only OLED or even better future panel tech will be able to offer the performance required for all of those advanced features.
The only good thing about LCDs now is that in particular with monitors; decent ones free from the historical main issues of the technology are now very affordable.

On-Topic: Sorry readers we're posting about peasant 60Hz stuff here when it should be about everything else better, but because we're actually stuck with mostly 60Hz-or-so games, well, it's not so off-topic. :p
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
Patrickbot
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:23 pm

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by Patrickbot »

Xyga wrote: TL;DR of course a direct comparison with a CRT always hurts but avoiding bad quality and performance LCD monitors and turning off too blurry filters/shaders and fake scanlines when they oppose motion direction also greatly helps with overall motion clarity and perception, even at 60Hz sample-and-hold.
Good stuff in this thread, I share pretty much the same perspective as you on this subject.

Another thing to bear in mind is that even the brightest LED-lit LCDs don't have sufficient brightness to compensate for both scanlines AND black frame insertion, so if you want perfect motion clarity and an acceptably bright image you have to reduce the strength of the scanlines.

OLED should be bright enough to do both 1:1 scanlines and BFI, but then you still have the display lag to contend with. In theory, this could be completely solved with something called "scanline beam racing," discussed on the Blurbusters site.

With an unlimited budget and enough expertise, it's possible to get a modern display to perform like a CRT. It's just that no one has done it yet, since scanline beam racing has yet to be implemented. The limitations of current display tech are why I still hang on to a 17" CRT monitor that I bought used for $10.
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by Xyga »

What you can do to compensate this with CRT shaders is reduce scanline height and raise brightness offset, both significantly.
Also set defocus X to the very minimum, and maybe turn Y off completely.
Turn mask/aperture effect off.
A hint of bloom might help too.

I take HLSL for reference here but most serious-enough CRT shaders can do a similar job (at the cost of still-shot crt realism tho)
Note: better have enough resolution real estate for such a profile, or use integer scaling, because it will more easily reveal bad scaling artifacts.
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
Patrickbot
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:23 pm

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by Patrickbot »

Xyga wrote:What you can do to compensate this with CRT shaders is reduce scanline height and raise brightness offset, both significantly.
Also set defocus X to the very minimum, and maybe turn Y off completely.
Turn mask/aperture effect off.
A hint of bloom might help too.

I take HLSL for reference here but most serious-enough CRT shaders can do a similar job (at the cost of still-shot crt realism tho)
Note: better have enough resolution real estate for such a profile, or use integer scaling, because it will more easily reveal bad scaling artifacts.
Good suggestions; that's pretty much what I've been doing when I use an LCD for 240p gaming.

The best I've been able to do on my ASUSVG248QE with black frame insertion enabled @ 120Hz and the backlight adjusted to 100% is a scanline strength of around 60-70% (or, a 30-35% reduction in brightness). This display is one of the brighter LED-lit LCDs, AFAIK. This is as close to 1:1 as you can get while still maintaining adequate brightness without jacking with the color levels or contrast. I use the "scanline-fract" or "interlacing" shader for scanlines.

With BFI, you can get away with adding a little bit of blur to emulate a CRT's gaussian blur. The best shader for adjustable sharpness is "tvout-tweaks-multipass," IMO. It actually simulates different signal resolutions/bandwidths. A lot of the blurs seem to darken the image for some reason, but this one doesn't, and it's very adjustable. It also does gamma correction.

Other useful shaders: "sharp-bilinear" can be very useful for dealing with scaling artifacts at non-integer scales; scanlines are still a problem though. Also useful are the jinc2 variants, which can be used to blend dithering while keeping the rest of the image sharp.
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by Xyga »

Mmh...not sure we're talking about the exact same thing, for me scanline strenght and height are not the same, strenght deals with the darkness and height the thickness, IMHO the latter works much better to deal with the overall brightness issue: thinner scanlines = less light blocked.
I don't remember how it's called in other shaders but a number like royale and hyllian feature the same.

Sorry I haven't used RA in a long while so I forget the settings names. Rather, lately i've been experimenting with MAME/Groovy on combinations of defocus-only + custom.png overlay effects, or even bilinear + prescale + custom.png, which are less crt-realistic but yield the greatest brightness output i've seen. All require integer scaling though...

For non-scanlined i've been using HLSL with everything but defocus off, which is basically custom bi-directional blur adjustable to the pixel and IMHO beats any other smoothing method around (hurts the colors a bit tho so gamma/brightness need adjustment). This is somewhat like what the high-end video scalers with advanced processing achieve, with the similar downside that it triggers OCD ^^
For those in a hurry filter + prescale2 is more than enough, great colors too, it's sort of like sharp-bilinear but not using shaders.
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
stryc9
Posts: 910
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:33 am
Location: Australia

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by stryc9 »

I know I'm among some major OCD individuals here (I'm bad myself, believe me), but there is something to be said for getting used to things - I replaced my old Samsung Plasma with last year's Sony Bravia X900F, and the comparatively poor motion resolution just shocked me for a good couple of months. Scanlines blur into invisibility in vertical games etc, really bothered me. But now I'm sort of amazed I was so sensitive to it, yes the effect is there, but it's not as horrible looking as when I first switched over.

Conversely I brought the Plasma back for a guest appearance just for comparison's sake and the thing looks really washed out colour wise compared to the LCD, even though I couldn't really notice much difference at the time, and I don't perceive the whole motion thing to be as pronounced as before. That's good.

To be honest going OCD over display quirks really tires me out and stops me enjoying the games, but if I'm being honest it was at it's worst when I had my CRTs in the mix. Geometry issues got to me more than any modern panel deficiencies ever have.
Facebook is for handbag users.
XBox Live Name: Katbizkitz
Patrickbot
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:23 pm

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by Patrickbot »

Xyga wrote:Mmh...not sure we're talking about the exact same thing, for me scanline strenght and height are not the same, strenght deals with the darkness and height the thickness, IMHO the latter works much better to deal with the overall brightness issue: thinner scanlines = less light blocked.
I don't remember how it's called in other shaders but a number like royale and hyllian feature the same.
Ah, yeah that it slightly different. Either approach works, just depends if you want thinner and darker scanlines or thicker and lighter scanlines. At 1080p, I run most 240p stuff at 5x vertical scale. At this scale, I prefer to keep the scanlines at 3 px wide and lowering the scanline darkness to 60-70%. This looks closer to the bolder-looking scanlines you get on a 31kHz monitor with inserted scanlines or a BVM.
Last edited by Patrickbot on Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Patrickbot
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:23 pm

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by Patrickbot »

stryc9 wrote:I know I'm among some major OCD individuals here (I'm bad myself, believe me), but there is something to be said for getting used to things - I replaced my old Samsung Plasma with last year's Sony Bravia X900F, and the comparatively poor motion resolution just shocked me for a good couple of months. Scanlines blur into invisibility in vertical games etc, really bothered me. But now I'm sort of amazed I was so sensitive to it, yes the effect is there, but it's not as horrible looking as when I first switched over.

Conversely I brought the Plasma back for a guest appearance just for comparison's sake and the thing looks really washed out colour wise compared to the LCD, even though I couldn't really notice much difference at the time, and I don't perceive the whole motion thing to be as pronounced as before. That's good.

To be honest going OCD over display quirks really tires me out and stops me enjoying the games, but if I'm being honest it was at it's worst when I had my CRTs in the mix. Geometry issues got to me more than any modern panel deficiencies ever have.
LCDs may have finally caught up to CRTs in terms of contrast, peak brightness, black levels and color reproduction but motion resolution and viewing angles remain a problem, and it's these two aspects that ruin the experience for me.

I can never get used to the horrible motion resolution of LCDs, and the horrible viewing angles. Play any 2d fighting game or shmup from the 90s and it's just awful, I can't even tell what's going on most of the time, and that's with a 2ms response time.

The viewing angle issue is another problem that greatly affects my enjoyment. I can't sit comfortably in my desk chair without everything getting horribly washed out on my TN panel LCD. I have to be sitting straight up and viewing the monitor perfectly head-on or else the colors get washed out. IPS panels are better with viewing angles but have worse input lag.

Yeah, geometry was an issue on CRTs but on a decent monitor you can get it 95% perfect, to the point where the geometry issues aren't noticeable when playing a game or watching a movie/show. It's particularly bad on flat screen CRTs like the much-hyped FD Wegas, which is why I don't actually like those. It's interesting to note that the PVMs and BVMs had curved surfaces, likely because a flat surface makes the geometry issues worse and harder to correct.

With scanline beam racing and black frame insertion you can get zero input lag and CRT-like motion clarity on an LCD, but the lost brightness from BFI becomes a problem when you try to add scanlines to 240p stuff. That, and you still have the viewing angle problem to deal with. OLED would solve the viewing angle problem, but then you have burn-in to worry about. There's just no such thing as a perfect display and everything is a compromise. Rather than spend thousands on a compromise solution, I prefer to just stick with CRTs for the time being. Maybe in another 10 years they'll have solved these problems.
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: LCD Motion Blur Reduction Topic, and Shmups >60fps List

Post by Xyga »

Patrickbot wrote:Ah, yeah that it slightly different. Either approach works, just depends if you want thinner and darker scanlines or thicker and lighter scanlines. At 1080p, I run most 240p stuff at 5x vertical scale. At this scale, I prefer to keep the scanlines at 3 px wide and lowering the scanline darkness to 60-70%. This looks closer to the bolder-looking scanlines you get on a 31kHz monitor with inserted scanlines or a BVM.
Well that's my point; I precisely don't believe they both work the same. From my experiments I've concluded that what gets the most in the way of motion perception and brightness with the strict limitations of LCDs, is essentially the amount of surface/pixels dedicated to these dark lines.
Even lowering the density/darkness doesn't help much, for best results the lines have to be as thin as possible, and not necessarily too light either (grey is bad, I use RGB instead but it's a bit long to explain)
In fact when you're trying to emulate thick light scanlines, you're only making it worse.
Sorry to contradict you so totally but I think the essence of my explanation on the topic didn't get through. :mrgreen:

It's hard to talk about these things without illustrations anyway, I'll try to post screenshots tomorrow to support my point.
IPS panels are better with viewing angles but have worse input lag.
What? no, IPSes don't have more lag I don't know where you read that, whatever the panel technology in displays is definitely not what's responible for input lag.
Response-wise (switching topics slightly here) there's good reasons why IPS is the preferred LCD tech for gaming displays these days, the fastest ones perform very close to the best TNs, in particular at 120Hz and up where you could say they're practically on par. So with the benefit of the good angles and colors both manufacturers and gamers have made their choice.
They're still not good-enough for the ideal BFI/strobing though, where response needs to be practically perfect.
I can never get used to the horrible motion resolution of LCDs
I understand that, motion resolution on LCDs will never be fixed in a satisfying-enough fashion. Earlier when I implied even the 60Hz can be decent enough under certain conditions, I should have added two more:
- they shouldn't be too big
- or you have to keep certain distance (which is further than people like to sit...)

In any case if we have hopes for good motion the likes of CRT and plasma in the future, it'll only be possible on OLED or whatever similar panel tech to come.
It's not the panel technologies I'm worried about, rather I find motion reduction R&D and adoption are too damn slow, like even in 20 years from now whatever is accomplished and becomes available will still be below our expectations...
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
Post Reply