Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

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Shepardus
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Shepardus »

I actually learned Progear's scoring mechanics from Wikipedia, the description there is unusually detailed and accurate for a shmup.

The general idea is that you want to cancel bullets with rapid shot (which cancels bullets around destroyed enemies) to raise the jewel class, then cash in on that by getting big cancels with the lock shot. Lock shot cancels bullets around destroyed enemies as well as bullets near those cancelled bullets, creating a chain-reaction effect, so you get bigger cancels than with the rapid shot. The gems created from lock shot are also worth a lot more than the rings from rapid shot. But once you let go of the lock shot the jewel class is reset (unless you haven't collected any gems), so you still need to use the rapid shot to raise the jewel class again. Switching between lock shot and rapid shot sucks in the jewels on the screen.

It's one of those scoring systems that makes more sense in practice than it does on paper trying to explain it in words, so I recommend watching videos of people scoring in the game. What you should see is that they frequently switch between rapid and lock shot. First they use rapid shot to cancel enough bullets for diamond rings, sucking in the rings by holding lock shot for a little bit (not for too long though, if you destroy any enemies with the lock shot and collect gems from that the jewel class will reset when you let go of the lock shot). Then they wait for bullets to fill up the screen and get a big cancel with lock shot, sucking in those gems by letting go of lock shot. This resets the jewel class, so the process starts anew. This all happens in a couple seconds usually.

Even more succinctly, scoring = rapid shot cancels to raise jewel class to diamonds -> lock shot to get big diamond cancels -> repeat.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Xyga »

Progear is one of the games one doesn't necessarily have to look for an explanation to understand the scoring system, it kinda comes naturally after a few credits if trying more than just holding/releasing a button.
IIRC it was the same the frst time I played ESPgaluda.
Guess it's because the benefits of doing the right thing are immediately visible; mountains of gold and jewels, greed is good!
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by el_rika »

I get the feeling that in Progear, playing for score is also the best way to survive. In DodonPachi for example, you could just ignore scoring while still smoothly beating the levels.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Shepardus »

Understanding the cancel mechanics is crucial for both survival and scoring. In addition, in Progear there's no limit to the score extends in the first loop (the maximum extra lives you can carry is 9, but extends are at 3m and every 4m thereafter), so scoring better directly leads to more lives.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by el_rika »

Another question. After i reach max jewelry icon (the grey one), the more i stay on it, the bigger the stone chain area will be? Or the actual number of max jewels is unimportant for the chain area?
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Shepardus »

Doesn't make a difference as far as I know, just the jewel class (even that I feel doesn't make that much of a difference, though maybe I just never noticed since diamonds are easy to get).
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Stevens
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Stevens »

Ill go with Shep on this one - I've read as much as I could find on Progear and I've never found anything saying such. Pretty sure the are of effect for the gems is fixed.

But yeah, Progear is dope. I'm parroting what another poster said to me when I first picked it up, something along the lines of - "I could play stage four all day."

My experience with Cave is limited compared to some others here, but stage four in Progear might be the best stage the ever put together.

Although now that I think about it Futari, Akai Katana, and Esp 2 (less so compared to the other two) also have pretty damn good stage fours.

Progear's is tops though.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by LichbannMejolaro »

I have a question about Mame.

I downloaded some games to test on it (Mushihimesama, Dodonpachi Daioujou, Deathsmiles etc) and in all of them, the warning screen says that the emulation has a "timing" problem.

I've played they and they look pretty ok. What would that problem be? Is something related to slowdowns?
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by OmegaFlareX »

Yes, it is missing most (all?) of it. The original PCBs really struggled under the massive amounts of objects the games throw around. Mushi original mode will probably be the most accurate in this case.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Xyga »

If I remember well there were two main causes; some slowdowns were intended, some were due to hardware limitations.
While the former might get emulated in the (maybe distant) future, the latter might never at all...so the CV1000 games in MAME could remain incorrect forever.

Also there's the relatively high lag.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Shepardus »

Note that Dodonpachi Daioujou fares better than Mushihimesama and Deathsmiles since that one is on different, better-emulated, hardware.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Bananamatic »

it's also not a shitfest that's supposed to be in slow motion half the time else it's unplayable
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by LichbannMejolaro »

I started playing R-Type on Mame and although I loved the game, the fact that you have to start again from the beginning after every death is infurating.

Is that a compiled list of shmups that does this so I can avoid them?
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by wgogh »

This thread is the closest thing I can think of
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14114
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Klatrymadon »

Does anybody know of any workarounds for the (seemingly fairly well-known) performance issues with Stella Vanity? I'm getting inconsistent, choppy framerates, and stages in which the game is essentially running at half the intended speed throughout (the first one being the worst offender so far), regardless of the graphical settings I choose or the amount of action onscreen. I'm assuming it isn't that my PC would struggle to run it anyway...
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Shepardus »

What version are you playing? Starting from one of the versions the dev added in deliberate slowdown.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Klatrymadon »

Thanks! It's 1.22, the latest available one on the English DLsite. It definitely has intentional slowdown at various points, but there's also an unusual sluggishness to the rest of the game, even during some pretty dead spots in the first stage. In replays I'm watching, the same sections are all running much more quickly and smoothly. Area 3 fares a lot better, for some reason, although it's still not quite hitting a consistent speed.

Edit: it seems to run at normal speed if I keep it windowed, so maybe it's just my PC...
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Randorama »

where is the thread linking to a wikia on shumps ranked by (arbitrary) difficulty? Thanks in advance.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by BurlyHeart »

In my sig :mrgreen:
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by copy-paster »

Anyone (or trap) know whats the deal with Ketsui Back and Fast ver?
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Randorama »

Leviathan wrote:In my sig :mrgreen:
Excellent, thank you!
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by xxx1993 »

Anyone think Saya and Hina's backstory in DoDonPachi SaiDaiOuJou is a bit too similar to Yuriko Omega and Izumi from Command and Conquer: Red Alert 3? Not only that, but A.I. from DoDonPachi Daifukkatsu even resembles Yuriko Omega.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by xxx1993 »

What are the differences between each version of both Psyvariar 1 and 2?
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by LordHypnos »

I understand that there is some manner of R-Type port on the 360, how good or bad is it?
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by OmegaFlareX »

I've seen Hardware (what I assume is engineer) credits in a lot of arcade shmups, but I thought about it and, what exactly did they do if the game borrows hardware from an earlier title? Did they act as consultant, answering questions from the programmers about registers or bus data or whatehaveyou? Was this just a formality thanking them for their work from sometimes years prior? I also assume they didn't just sit around waiting for the phone to ring; management probably had them working on new hardware designs constantly?
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by BIL »

LordHypnos wrote:I understand that there is some manner of R-Type port on the 360, how good or bad is it?
Kiken has always suggested R-Type Dimensions is a bit rickety, and generally inferior to the IREM-produced R-Types (PS1). Never had reason to try it myself, but it seems to be regarded as adequate at best.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by LordHypnos »

BIL wrote:
LordHypnos wrote:I understand that there is some manner of R-Type port on the 360, how good or bad is it?
Kiken has always suggested R-Type Dimensions is a bit rickety, and generally inferior to the IREM-produced R-Types (PS1). Never had reason to try it myself, but it seems to be regarded as adequate at best.
Thanks for the link! Unfortunately, he is only speaking about R-Type II, but that's still pretty good to know. From reading a bit further, it looks like it might just be basically a port of the (inferior) world or maybe NA release of R-Type II. I downloaded the R-Type Dimensions demo, and it did seem like stage 1 of R-Type is the same, at least, but the autofire rate is slower than the one that I use in MAME, so it's a little harder. I'm still considering buying it, but IDK. No reason to rush, anyway.
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Solunas wrote:How to Takumi your scoring system
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2) Make it a multiplier for your actual score
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by BIL »

Crumbs, up too late here. :mrgreen: Yeah it seems they used the World ROMsets. Ghegs also mentioned some Force weirdness, this time in R-Type 1 (though he also clarified the ports aren't terrible or anything).
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by LordHypnos »

BIL wrote:Crumbs, up too late here. :mrgreen: Yeah it seems they used the World ROMsets. Ghegs also mentioned some Force weirdness, this time in R-Type 1 (though he also clarified the ports aren't terrible or anything).
That's a pretty nice summary. Thanks!
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Solunas wrote:How to Takumi your scoring system
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by RVCountry »

Hi all. Wasn't sure whether to post this here or the new user introduction thread, but I figured this was probably the best place.

I'm getting a bit old/busy for games, but I still have time for shortform stuff like shmups. Getting really good at an arcade style game is something on my bucket list. I know reaching superplay status takes tens of thousands of credits and lots of practice, but I'm up for the work.

My question is: what shmup should I go with? That's very broad but I've tried to narrow it down based on the shmups farm Top 25 lists and my own preferences. I've been messing around with MAME and have a short list to work with. The problem is I'm not very good at these games, probably a low-mid level player, so I don't know how they'll change (for better or worse) when I put more work in.

Short list: Eschatos, Gradius V, Ketsui, Mars Matrix, Mushihimesama Black Label, Battle Garegga

Thoughts: I'm not a big fan of straightforward enemy chaining. I lean towards shmups with dynamic scoring systems that aren't entirely memorization (I know a lot of memorizing is unavoidable with enough practice). Gradius V is on here because I love the stage design and it might be cool to master a "marathon shmup." I'm having trouble getting into Garegga because of camouflage bullets and the rank system sounds weird, but it's so highly regarded I must be missing something. I'm loving Mushi BL on Original but I don't know how good the scoring is for Maniac/God. Ketsui is way outside my skill level but I've been grinding out the first two stages for decent scores, and Ura Loop/TLB are enticing rewards for mastery. Right now I most enjoy Mars Matrix, it feels so rewarding/flexible, I got a real high when I earned my first twelve digit score, but I am a little worried the dynamic chaining will get stale when you get a set route. Eschatos Advanced/Endless don't appeal to me but Original is so good.

Sorry for the blog post lmao. Basically I'm looking for opinions on how good these games "hold up" when you put enough time in. Also looking for other suggestions on good shmups to think about. For now I'll probably narrow my list down to three or four, put a decent chunk of time into those, then make a final pick. But I could use some help/opinions reaching those three or four. If you got through this wall of text thanks for reading/any advice you have. :D
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