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 Post subject: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:58 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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Location: Toronto, Canada
I just had an N64RGB modded console returned to me to be tested; the problem was described as horizontal random noise on solid white screens (if you start Paper Mario 64, in the first 10 seconds, you will see this). This is visible on both OSSC and XRGB mini.

I tested this with multiple modded consoles, and multiple SCART cables; and sure enough.. it's there. But it doesn't look like your standard high frequency noise (vertical jailbars); it horizontal, and only in the solid white; and very random.

As a last test, I fed S-Video cable from the N64 into the scalar (bypassing the RGB amp) and sure enough.. it's still there (just not as visible). Which leads me to believe that this is an inherit problem with all N64 consoles.

- Can anyone else confirm they see this problem?
- Any suggestions on what can be done to fix? I'm guessing one of the IC's inside is starving for power when solid white is shown.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:09 pm 


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I get something similar on my md2 and gamegear, like a third of the way down, buzzy power interference.

I figured it was improper shielding on my RGB bypass boards, have purchased some copper tape to test.

I'll check out my n64RGB now tho, as I have not noticed this on my one yet.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:19 pm 


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Ok what I get on the gamegear and md2 is not the same.

I see the horizontal bars on fade in/out and scene change with paper Mario.
This games a bit strange, check out the yellow and brown bricks on the right side of the intro, they have random jumping/flashing pixels.
Loaded pilot wings, pixels jumping all over the place, most noticeable on green.
Loaded Mario 64, look at the green S on select file screen, jumping pixels.
Loaded superman, look at the top of the screen, bad interference flickering, this is similar to my gamegear and md2. Most noticeable on the light blue backgrounds.
It's actually really bad/noticeable on this title.
This is present in all games but hard to see on certain backgrounds.
My install is very neat, extra short and properly grounded.

Also my everdrive menu jumps up and down like an interlaced image. Very odd. Maybe it needs OSSC setting tweak??

Edit**
The horizontal interference seems similar to when I had crappy 3.3v regs oscillating in a neo geo cart. I went thru 5 regs before I found a good one and had no interference on screen.
Tim did have fake 3.3v regs in his last batch of nesrgb which caused similar issues, but I'd assume he would of looked over all his products when he realised this.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:42 pm 



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The problem is that I see this in S-Video out as well! Not just RGB .. so was wondering why no one else complained about the noise in stock N64..


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:12 pm 



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leonk wrote:
The problem is that I see this in S-Video out as well! Not just RGB .. so was wondering why no one else complained about the noise in stock N64..

Same! My CPU-08 Nintendo 64 was showing faint vertical lines on transition screens in Pokemon Stadium when connected with the official Nintendo SNES S-Video cable. I'm not sure if that's a cable issue, a game issue or a system hardware issue.

I bought a GameCube Monster S-Video cable (SNES, N64 and GameCube cables all work interchangeably), hoping this issue will be resolved.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:03 pm 



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
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GeneraLight wrote:
leonk wrote:
The problem is that I see this in S-Video out as well! Not just RGB .. so was wondering why no one else complained about the noise in stock N64..

Same! My CPU-08 Nintendo 64 was showing faint vertical lines on transition screens in Pokemon Stadium when connected with the official Nintendo SNES S-Video cable. I'm not sure if that's a cable issue, a game issue or a system hardware issue.

I bought a GameCube Monster S-Video cable (SNES, N64 and GameCube cables all work interchangeably), hoping this issue will be resolved.


If @leonk is seeing this noise with S-Video then it might an issue inherent to the N64 (maybe certain revisions) that cannot be fixed.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:16 pm 


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Hey leonk,

have you tested this issue on an unmodded console or with a modded console with just the 'basic' THS7374 amp mod?

Actually, I cannot see the problem on my setup. Maybe very very very slightly but I cannot say if that is an impression because of what you have written.
I tested in on three consoles: each console modded - N64RGBv2 (via OSSC), N64Advanced (via OSSC) and UltraHDMI (via THS7374 Amp to OSSC and second on HDMI out directly).

Can you further describe the issue? Or make a picture of it?

I do have an idea but before writing anything wrong here I want to wait for your answers. ;)

BR
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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:32 pm 



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Borti. Here's a video showing the problem

https://youtu.be/JHlJ8ePSK3Q


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:15 pm 


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OK, I don't have this flickering. I watched the Paper Mario intro several times.

Try this firmware build: https://www.dropbox.com/s/bfjskfwzm0wuh ... m.zip?dl=0
I'm not sure if it resolves this issue but it's at least worth trying it ;)

Otherwise please try the following: insert a series resistor into the digital line to the modding board, i.e. you need 9: 7x data, data sync and clock. The resistors should be something in between of 47ohm and 100ohm; not much less or more. They should be placed close to the modding board.

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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:37 am 



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Hi Borti..

I tried this newest firmware.. and no luck. Is it identical to the one you released 10 days ago with Tim's update? or different? Because I tried that one as well as same issue.

It's really ONLY visible in solid white screen. No where else. Given solid white screen is rare, I'm just gonna leave it as is. No one else really noticed it, and it seems to be there since day 1.

That being said, have you noticed that with your deblur algorithm, the title screen for paper mario seems to be moving 1 pixel to the right (or is it left) back and forth quickly??


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:20 am 


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What you see on the white screen are probably reflections on the data lines. I enabled the weak pullup for the test firmware hoping that it will help a bit.
Have you tried to use resistors as suggested?
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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:27 pm 



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Hi Borti. I decided to not do the resistor test as the system works great as is and I would prefer to not experiment with someone else's console. I spoke to the owner; his concern was this was only an issue with his console; but this seems to be an issue with all the consoles I tested.

I can see it also in S-Video output connected to XRGB / no mod.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:23 am 


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@Borti

I cut some trace pads on Tims NESRGB and installed 9x 56ohm resistors inline.
The white banding on Paper Mario is now a neat crosshatch, but the best part is my jumping pixels are now gone!

Nothing else was changed with the install, I am yet to update the firmware.

Before when I was on the select screen for Mario 64 I had pixels jumping from the S on select and other places.

I've been looking at the screen for 10 minutes since the resistor install and not a single pixel jumping, just a nice solid image.

I still have interference on screen but I feel that is from a cheap Ebay PSU.
I'm getting shocked from the ground plane on the N64, and it wont load my Everdrive 64 unless a Memory Expansion Pak is installed in the console ** Edit ** n64s don't work without the jumper pak installed, its a link for the ram it seems.

Have to cut the big pad for CLK, I didn't realise at first.
Also I wouldn't recommend using such small resistors, its all I could find on hand inside an old set top box.
https://i.imgur.com/NREgRPj.jpg


Last edited by Syntax on Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:45 am 


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Neat idea to implement the resistors :)

Somewhere I read that someone also installed some larger ceramic caps (4.7uF IIRC) on top of the preinstalled 0.1uF caps.
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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:32 pm 


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@Syntax is the resistor fix actually fixing the noise on the solid white image as shown in leonk's youtube video. I have the same problem myself and am thinking about applying the same fix to my board. I don't seem to have the pixel jumping problem though but I do get the noise on paper mario intro and the blue on superman. Any negative side effects of the fix?


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:47 pm 


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The moving horizontal noise in superman is a transistor oscillating AC or something, I'm yet to test an official PSU.
Maybe one of the N64 SMD electros have gone closed circuit?

The resistors only really fixed the pixel arrangement.
What used to be a horrible unstable mess in all games is now as it should be.
The N64 is looking much more like an emulator now in terms of image quality.

Id noticed something was really off when playing Paper Mario over Christmas with my little bro and he was laughing at how messed up the stars look.

So all in all the resistors sharpened and stabilized the picture, and now there is a noticeable difference between deblur on and off.

But the solid horizontal lines on white fade in and out of Paper Mario are still present, albeit less noticeable, which I cannot confirm if its just my poor memory/placebo :/


Updated to the dev test SW version of Tims firmware Bortie released , No problems there, deblur works perfect, but no other noticeable change.
https://github.com/borti4938/n64rgb/tre ... es/viletim


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:06 am 


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@Syntax thanks for the info, guess I'll hold off then.

The noise does look like a bad cap or PSU problem. Both of my PSUs are official and both have the same problem, but one of them I know is bad(reset problem). Maybe I need to do more testing.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:53 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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FWIW this is a very localized problem. 99% of games look amazing. It also tends to only show up on HDTV. On PVM I can't see the issue.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:34 am 


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Had a play with the N64 today to try and figure out why I have this power interference on screen, took me awhile but i've found its tied to the sound output somehow.

When the music changes so does the interference in the Superman first blue screen.
I've tested back to back and its the same pattern each time.

Not really sure where to go from here other than a cap kit.

Tested on 2 self made cables, each one has RGBS shielded on one coax and LR audio and blanking shielded on a separate coax so I'm pretty sure its not happening there.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:19 pm 


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I think your right about the audio, I just retested myself to take a look. Also I just moved my setup so I could take a video capture and for some reason the problem isn't showing up as bad today as it normally does. I'm not sure why maybe less power interference or maybe the n64 has warmed up from being on for awhile causing a difference with the caps. I really don't know but I would be interested to know if a cap job helps or not.

Here is my video capture of SuperMan64 intro for comparison , Viletim IGR with deblur on with a everdrive64. You can really only clearly see it in the first 8 seconds the bigger you watch the video the better you can see it(I'm watching on a 65in), I had a hard time on my laptop, like I was saying its not really acting up as bad today for some reason, its normally worse.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/afrlbhwki ... rMan64.mp4


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:35 pm 


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That video was perfect.

Super easy to see your issue, and its exactly the same as mine.

Sound related interference....

Lowering music and game sounds in-game does nothing to minimise the noise on screen.


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:07 pm 


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OK, got the issue and I can reproduce that :)

Good news: I know how to get rid of it.
Bad news: it is not an easy fix with the commercial version of viletim.

If I connect my analog section to 3.3V I do have the same issue.
If I connect the analog section to 5V I get rid of it.

On my newer boards it's just setting a jumper or running a wire.

On viletims board this means that the THS7374 has to be supplied by 5V. By looking on a picture of viletims board, you have to cut a trace - the big one between the CPLD and the THS preferably between the small cap and the THS. Please note that this cap is shared between THS and CPLD so you have to install another cap for the THS7374 later.
I hope that this is the only one connection. After cutting you can check whether you still have a connection between the power supply of the THS7374 (large cap +) and 3.3V.
The you can install a replacement cap (100nF rated for 6.3V+; you can use a wired package and put it around the large 22uF cap) and connect the power supply for the THS7374 to 5V; e.g. connecting + pole of the 22uF cap with pin 10 of the MultiOut.

Cutting a trace is not ideal and non-reversible. But I would love to see someone who test that.
If the suggested fix does not work, then the issue is transferred into the analog part anyway through the R2R ladder. In that case the only fix atm is using a DAC-IC with VCCA connected to 5V instead of the R2R ladder.
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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:14 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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The THS7374IPW is rated to work on 3-5V. why would this noise show up in 3V and not 5V??


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:31 pm 


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cutting between the CPLD and the THS eliminates the 22uf tantalum cap from the 3.3v rail, should another be reinstalled?

Also if you can reproduce this issue, and fix it with 5v then it really cant be in the R2R ladder can it?

**EDIT** I understand that you mean its transferred through the R2R now.


Last edited by Syntax on Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:18 am 


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Cut the trace, installed a 100n over the 22uf and 5v to the 22uf +

Didn't fix or change anything with the noise on Superman. :(

https://i.imgur.com/xGmMFIs.jpg


Last edited by Syntax on Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:30 am 


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Syntax wrote:
Cut the trace, installed a 100n over the 22uf and 5v to the 22uf +

Didn't fix or change anything with the noise on Superman. :(
Thanks for testing! though I'm not sure if it has anything to do with the rgb mod myself seeing that I also get the noise using svideo with no mods installed at all on 2 different n64's.

Have you tried using svideo to see if the same noise shows up yourself?


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:37 am 


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I don't have a cable to test, but I figured as much. Thanks for confirming its a common N64 issue.

Probably an aging cap close to an audio DAC or something.

Will try make a dedicated 3.3v PSU and power the N64 from that off the 5v rail. (to avoid the seemingly dirty n64 3.3v rail)


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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:55 am 


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So I tried fitting a MIC39100 - 3.3WS with a 22uf tantalum on output and a 100n cap on input powered from the N64 +5v.
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/D ... c39100.pdf
Cut the original 3.3v trace.

The noise on screen is gone! No more horizontal interference lines!
But there's a new kind of fuzzy/static noise which is barely noticeable, probably from me not knowing what I'm doing I think I shouldn't of added the tantalum cause the 3.3v line already has one.

Anyhow, this means the 3.3v line in the N64 is noisy, how do we fix this, what is the cause?

https://i.imgur.com/Lre8KqN.jpg


Last edited by Syntax on Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:28 am 


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Thank for your work and testing out my brain farts :roll:

Also great for further modding and testing with the separate LDO regulator. Your MIC39100 - 3.3WS would be also able to get the power from the 12V input.
The datasheet suggested a 1uF input decoupling capacitor though. So your 100nF might be to low.

If you compare Nintendo consoles (mainly NES, SNES and N64) to SEGA ones (mainly MS and MD) you see that Nintendo hasn't used that much capacitors at all.
What will may help is to replace the electrolyt capacitors. Also on the bottom side there is an unpopulated footprint for a large ceramic capacitor; in the 3.3V power supply plane right before it goes under the RCP-NUS. Maybe one can install another pre-decoupling cap with 100uF there.
On the NUS-CPU-04 board this is C173 but labeling may differ from revision to revision.
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 Post subject: Re: N64 noise on solid white screen ... ??
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:39 am 


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I tried using a 100uf electro on 5v and 12 v but still have these hazy/static artefacts on screen in the same spots every time. (Different spots for different menus ect.)

Removed the LDO and wired 3.3v directly from the psu, old noise came back, but I noticed the static noise was there the whole time it seems.

Found it in Mario 64 menu too. might up the inline dataline caps to 75 ohms and see what happens.


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