Sangoku Justice - CAVE [Strategy Game/ iOS & Android]

[Sumez]

I think it's still unconfirmed whether it's a game.

[Xyga]

All I wanted to say is that IMHO the portion that kinda sees shmups (and for some; video games entirely) only as some kind of solo e-sport have for a long time made the genre look somewhat inaccessible like it's a thing of extreme goals only, and the community a niche dominated by a core group of elitist douches looking down on those who don't align to their competitive-only mentality. It is not really the case and not all of them are douches of course, there's plenty of good and fucking cool top players around who've contiously enriched the community, but they're not the most vocal about what games and gamers are worthy of consideration or death, you know. Again not necessarily intentional but 'tunnel vision' is probably the right term indeed to describe an attitude that's been kinda negative for the popularity of the genre.

What's the relation to Cave? Simple; even if their games dragged tons of people, people who might always remain more or less casual players, maybe never able to make expert criticism of the games nor compete seriously on the high score boards, [call them the 'Cave Casuals' if ya want], the fact is that company has been a massive contributor, the last major one, and was rightfully loved for what they did.
Now what I can't take seriously at all is the revisionism that's decidely been trendy for a few years, basically after digging the fuck out of Cave for a decade and even longer for the more early adopters, the only discourse that seems to remain today within the shmup/shmups-friendly communities is 'Cave is shit', 'glad they re gone', and anyone defending Cave is a fanboi... if we can't even have forgiveness nor have a hint of respect for an ex-giant of one of the best genres of games ever, what is left for love?
I know the internet is wide-open to shitposting but have the fuccbois really conquered almost every last corner of it? Are we cursed to go by the Book of Rob 'cleanse all those I deem inferior'? It's definitely not nice for newcomers to the genre to discover what games they like and their less-involved attitude towards games basically earns them to be looked down upon, especially if it's by good/veteran players.

[BIL]

I think it's still unconfirmed whether it's a game.

Oh damn - no reason not to post this then!



^ OFFICIAL FAN ART （＾ω´ ）

Book of Rob 'cleanse all those I deem inferior'?

It's like an inverse Bible, New Testament is where he got a bit cranky

[Stevens]

Also forgive me: I'm on the last leg of the semester. Grumpy and hair-trigger as fuck.

I don't miss those days at all. What year are you in?

[Squire Grooktook]

Also forgive me: I'm on the last leg of the semester. Grumpy and hair-trigger as fuck.

I don't miss those days at all. What year are you in?

More than several in: had to switch my major which set me back for time quite a bit. Currently struggling to land the filled up classes I need, then struggling with the math once I get them. It's been rough.

[Bananamatic]

Every other waking hour is devoted to either college, or game development. 5-7 hours a week is all I can spare, and that's on a particularly good week (which is getting more and more rare). Despite all that, I still play my favorite stg and genuinely enjoy them (even if I don't discuss them a ton - surprise surprise - I don't have much time for forums either), and I don't need a snobby lecture about how nobody is enjoying these games "to their full potential" and it's badwrongfun and we should all ditch our own playstyles and hobbies and become superplayers instead.

I play maybe two hours a day on average though (even though I have way more free time currently)
don't think I was playing at all either when I was busy with school
that's another thing, people don't even realize that you don't have to play 6 hours a day to get anywhere because no one really plays so they just look at no life retards like gus and think that's how it works
especially since the games are so dead and competition is nonexistent, there is absolutely nothing to keep up with unlike other games and you can play at your own pace

[Sumez]

The amount of time you really "need" to put into shmups is definitely overrated. Imagine if someone put as much time into Garegga as the worst World of Warcraft players did in that game.

Of course with the condensed intensity of a typical shooter, one hour of playing definitely feels like hell a lot more than an hour of Dragon Quest grinding.

[Sumez]

I think it's still unconfirmed whether it's a game.

Oh damn - no reason not to post this then!

Spoiler

^ OFFICIAL FAN ART （＾ω´ ）

Thread isn't funny plz lock

[BIL]

B-b-but... I thought it was DICKS that were haraam! D:

[Bananamatic]

The amount of time you really "need" to put into shmups is definitely overrated. Imagine if someone put as much time into Garegga as the worst World of Warcraft players did in that game.

Of course with the condensed intensity of a typical shooter, one hour of playing definitely feels like hell a lot more than an hour of Dragon Quest grinding.

not having to keep up with updates and the metagame is a big deal as well
drop an online game for a year and you'll have to relearn a ton of stuff
drop dodonpachi for a year and it will be the same as before

[drauch]

Go ahead and send me the link to your deviantart, BIL.

[Squire Grooktook]

I play maybe two hours a day on average though (even though I have way more free time currently)
don't think I was playing at all either when I was busy with school
that's another thing, people don't even realize that you don't have to play 6 hours a day to get anywhere because no one really plays so they just look at no life retards like gus and think that's how it works

I agree, you don't need a huge time investment. A consistent 2 hours a day is fine for proficiency (2 hours a day spent on anything, art, music, etc. is a good way of getting good at it if you're consistent). But like I said, I'm lucky if I can reserve 2 hours a week for games at this particular period in my life. And tbh, I don't really enjoy the games I play any less because of the time constraints.

[Bananamatic]

so in the end it just comes down to not wanting to play

[Squire Grooktook]

What? No. Unless you're directing that at others (who? is it not possible that many people on this forum are similarly stricken for time? Was GaijinPunch's sig immortalized fisting quote for nothing?), I don't see how you read that from my post at all.

>guys you only need 2 hours a day to git gud
>I only have 2 hours a week on a good week. I still enjoy playing casually though!
>LMAO GUESS YOU DON'T REALLY LIKE THE GAMES ENOUGH




There are certainly games I've enjoyed digging into hardcore. Dangun Feveron comes to mind, I've done a lot of scoreplay for that. Save state practiced stage routes and the works a few years ago. I wanted to return to it with the recent M2 port and beat my old score, but I literally do not have time to relearn or improve my old routes. I barely have 2 hours a week (frequently not even that), to play, let alone per day. "Want" has nothing to do with it.

But I still thoroughly enjoyed revisiting and replaying it, even for a short time. I've enjoyed replaying and revisiting many games that I either don't have the time to fully explore, or have already seen all there is to see. Not everything is about the carrot at the end of the stick.

Also the "not playing it the way I'm playing it means you don't like the game enough!" is wrong, flat out, and is just a manifestation of that tunnel vision I mentioned. Again, there's more than one way of enjoying a game. Different people enjoy and cherish games from different perspectives. You can still love a game and not want to part with it for any reason, yet only bust it out once a year.

[Bananamatic]

except this "I like the game but I play it once a year" is the majority opinion
strategy discussion is impossible because no one cares about strategies
there was a ridiculous amount of misconceptions for 7 years about DDP because no one bothered to play the game, just accept A-L is the best, some shitty guide ages ago said C-L is garbage so it has to be
turns out that C-L is by far the easiest way to play the game for both survival and score
same shit on /shmupg/, just regurgitate the statement that it's nothing but monkey tier copying replays despite the fact I got further in dodonpachi by ignoring the available replays and finding better ways to play

this discussion is always the same bullshit
first they bring up that they don't have time, I say that I don't really play more than 1 hour a day on average
then you bring up how I am telling you to play the game a "specific way"
except there is no interest in playing the game in any way and I fully support playing the games purely for survival in order to get an easy 1cc

meanwhile instead of discussing how to get through the laser wheels in DFK in a beginner friendly way, people just state how they suck and how much they hate them
it would be really nice if those "non superplayer" people would discuss how to get past certain parts of a game in a non superplayer way or if they posted replays as examples to make it easier to help
except there is no interest in any of those things
it's like if street fighter players instead of asking "how do I beat fireball and shoryuken spam" just came to a group conclusion "these moves are bullshit and unfair"
even the casual final fantasy players on gamefaqs discuss the gameplay and strategies how to get past certain enemies
even the casual dark souls players do that
not here

people just aren't interested in any gameplay discussion in any capacity, not here, not on 4chan, that's a simple fact
anyone who cared about that left elsewhere
then it becomes simple to realize why shmups are dying
people give more shits about gameplay in literally any genre, even those "casual" ones the "hardcore" arcade players hate so much
it's not about skill or how much time you spend on them or wanting to be a superplayer or whatever
it's about showing interest, and barely anyone does that

[Squire Grooktook]

meanwhile instead of discussing how to get through the laser wheels in DFK in a beginner friendly way, people just state how they suck and how much they hate them
-
except there is no interest in any of those things
it's like if street fighter players instead of asking "how do I beat fireball and shoryuken spam" just came to a group conclusion "these moves are bullshit and unfair"
even the casual final fantasy players on gamefaqs discuss the gameplay and strategies how to get past certain enemies
even the casual dark souls players do that
not here

Okay look, I'm gonna be honest: I don't see it.

Even on fighting game forums (which I frequent a lot) and other genres, off-topic boards are pretty much always the most active and vibrant. There's only so much you can discuss a game that's been released for more than a few years before all the information that's readily available to the public has been put out there and all that's left is rehash of opinions with a minor discovery or scrub outburst here and there. And tbh that's not a bad state of affairs.

I personally cannot remember the last time I've heard anyone other than scrubs with post counts in the double digits call anything "unfair", and usually they get a resounding response of "here's a replay, go memorize it". Sometimes there's game design critique of what feels encouraging/rewarding, but that's more from the perspective of long time fans who are interested in discussing what makes the games tick, rather than outright complaints of impossibility. There are also some memes floating around, and some people have opinions that I might not agree with ("if it doesn't have cave-tier production values, it's just not a full course meal!") but that's the nature of discussion and the internet.

I see this forum as a chill place to hang out, occasionally discuss things, and watch for new news on the genre. I don't know what kind of eden you've been to where everyone always has riveting discussion of the genre that just keeps on giving many months in. A lot of the best players here are no longer super active, so indeed deep strategy advice on high level achievements is difficult to come by, but I'm not seeing the wide spread scrub-tier attitude problem you're describing.

[Xyga]

^ My point exactly there were more purely gameplay/strategy discussions years ago when the games were still a thing.

I don't believe it's because there's some stuff that was never found before and the few like Banana who're still at it today complain that it makes the forums sterile, the strategy and high score forums are just the most massive library of gameplay and strategy 'tips' for shmups in English.

But we're in 2017, soon 2018, it's practically a flatline, lots of people switched hobbies, some just became casual players because of time constraints - on that topic - let's not talk like anyone can really schedule a fixed number of hours everyday for playing, there's such a thing as unplanned irregularity in life and having more or less energy to dedicate to things.
Honestly up to 30 maybe I was able to do that easily, then after I lacked the time, yes, but also gradually lost the energy.
Several weeks or months of tiresome work in your 20's is not the same after 30 and 40 etc. Honestly I was playing a lot around 2006~2008 because I had the time and energy capital and could make real progress in several games, but that changed brutally.
Fuck I can't imagine if I had kids, I've got a pal who tends to his hardware and collection with love and although we don't say it out loud when we see each other we know he will never be able to play anything seriously anymore in his life, just an hour or two here and there every week maybe if not less.

I know it's depressing to hear but again;

- the last shmups 'boom' in history ended shortly after Cave - the last major arcade stg's maker - quit, nobody wants to admit it but it's true, after that it's been a handful of good indie/doujins, nice events, console and Steam ports, and then it decelerated and whole spirit of it began to fade away, I think this was about when I left the French forum for good and started posting here even though I knew things were changing. The phenomenon was less obvious and brutal here because the community is (was?) bigger and better. And from what I've seen the shit is practically breathing its last moments in Japan too.

- people who were the right age of their lives and experienced the boom (and actually had gotten in shmups way before that anyway) just fucking advanced in life because they had to and the party was over. there's just so many people remaining when the music, food and booze are almost all gone, the two chatting in a corner like they're alone, the one who won't leave the mic and sing until dawn, the drunk jerking alone in the middle, and the one under the table snoring in his vomit.
And when it's really late and all's gone to shit; the fight. And no there's no police to stop the shit.
I leave people free to identify with whomever in this gloomy after-party.

[Sumez]

^ My point exactly there were more purely gameplay/strategy discussions years ago when the games were still a thing.

Like... when Cave were actively putting out shmups? :O :O

[Xyga]

Among others yes. But I won't repeat several paragraphs explaining why.

[Sumez]

Oh, I'm not saying you're wrong - quite the contrary, no matter how much "casual scrub" you think Cave's late-life output brought to the table, they kept the discussion and strategy threads in here god damn busy. And not just for Cave games.

[Squire Grooktook]

I think the commercial side of the genre is dead. I don't think the doujin burst slowed down: there's still a lot of very interesting doujin titles and circles formed every year.

I'm also idealistic enough to think that, while time and energy to be competitive might fade, there's always room to clear for things that are special to you if they really matter. 2-5 hours to for gaming a week might not sound like a lot to some, but it can be rewarding and magical in its own way.

But yes, I think that's the real reason this place is so chill.

That's also part of why I like it.

[Bananamatic]

There's only so much you can discuss a game that's been released for more than a few years before all the information that's readily available to the public has been put out there and all that's left is rehash of opinions with a minor discovery or scrub outburst here and there. And tbh that's not a bad state of affairs.

that's another misconception
plus lots of games have barely been discussed here in the first place and the info available is more disinformation than anything

[BIL]

- people who were the right age of their lives and experienced the boom (and actually had gotten in shmups way before that anyway) just fucking advanced in life because they had to and the party was over. there's just so many people remaining when the music, food and booze are almost all gone, the two chatting in a corner like they're alone, the one who won't leave the mic and sing until dawn, the drunk jerking alone in the middle, and the one under the table snoring in his vomit.
And when it's really late and all's gone to shit; the fight. And no there's no police to stop the shit.
I leave people free to identify with whomever in this gloomy after-party.

I may not entirely agree (I think the genre has a promising afterlife via the internet's ease of communication+development) - but this is undeniably poignant. Good show Xyga. 3;

In the meantime... LET JERK OFF TOGETHER (BOSS).mp3

[Xyga]

@Banana; well if everything was for naugh then please by all means create new threads and reeducate the shmuppers of the world ! Bring a new light.

Do it, and you'll realize it's too late, still only a pocket will have an interest, old-timers or scrubs alike.

Only a resurgence initiating with a few electrifying-enough new great games and emerging devs would revive the genre, I'll stick to that scenario.

@SG; I have no doubt the scene will continue to make good and even fantastic games, but you know the power of the 'commercial side' is not the same.
Not that the alternative isn't possible but I have a hard time picturing a handful of emerging Shanghai Alices, each creating and carrying their own 'school' over the years with successful titles. One new heavyweight alone could do the magic and create a new alchemy, but damn I'd have to be a significantly more positive character to believe something like that will actually happen in the not-too-distant future (honestly for a little while I thought Yotsubane would be 'the one'...)

@BIL; I'm working on a mass shmuppers sucicide event on new year's eve (just exaggerating a bit of course but it's fun)

[BIL]

@BIL; I'm working on a mass shmuppers sucicide event on new year's eve (just exaggerating a bit of course but it's fun)

Gonna have to pass on that one bro, I barely made it out of YagawaPalooza 2016 alive. It was going really well until the "IRL Superplay DVD" and now I'm tormented by PTSD, survivor's guilt, and the occasional jeer of "FUCKIN NOOB"

Spoiler

Those were some fuckin dedicated weeaboos though

[Bananamatic]

Not that the alternative isn't possible but I have a hard time picturing a handful of emerging Shanghai Alices, each creating and carrying their own 'school' over the years with successful titles. One new heavyweight alone could do the magic and create a new alchemy, but damn I'd have to be a significantly more positive character to believe something like that will actually happen in the not-too-distant future (honestly for a little while I thought Yotsubane would be 'the one'...)

you're forgetting that ZUN can reuse a fuckton of his assets (engine, bullets, characters, sound effects, sprites, enemies outside of bosses and even bosses sometimes, etc.), the backgrounds are simple and repeating and the bosses are tiny sprites
plus they aren't well designed as shmups either, the stages suck and game balance is mostly an afterthought
you'd probably end up with a bunch of really similar games if anyone else did that and the visual design would probably suffer too since reusing enemy sprites across games is pretty damn lazy

[mamboFoxtrot]

meanwhile instead of discussing how to get through the laser wheels in DFK in a beginner friendly way, people just state how they suck and how much they hate them
it would be really nice if those "non superplayer" people would discuss how to get past certain parts of a game in a non superplayer way or if they posted replays as examples to make it easier to help
except there is no interest in any of those things

hmm, well, honestly, I've never asked about how to get through things in a game, shmup or otherwise, because it's always something I've preferred to try and figure out myself
I'd like to say that other people having that mentality would contribute to the apparent lack of discussion around here, but then a number of our off-topic threads like the NES Sidescroller one have that kind of discussion. And that thread in particular is pretty much exclusively about decade+ old games, so...


my own ADD with playing shmups does kinda get on my nerves, though. Every once in a while I sit down and play something, have a good time, and think "hey I should get back to trying to actually beat some of these things" and then a few days later I'm back to my other hobbies and not really playing videogames at all

[Xyga]

Not that the alternative isn't possible but I have a hard time picturing a handful of emerging Shanghai Alices, each creating and carrying their own 'school' over the years with successful titles. One new heavyweight alone could do the magic and create a new alchemy, but damn I'd have to be a significantly more positive character to believe something like that will actually happen in the not-too-distant future (honestly for a little while I thought Yotsubane would be 'the one'...)

you're forgetting that ZUN can reuse a fuckton of his assets (engine, bullets, characters, sound effects, sprites, enemies outside of bosses and even bosses sometimes, etc.), the backgrounds are simple and repeating and the bosses are tiny sprites
plus they aren't well designed as shmups either, the stages suck and game balance is mostly an afterthought
you'd probably end up with a bunch of really similar games if anyone else did that and the visual design would probably suffer too since reusing enemy sprites across games is pretty damn lazy

I'm not forgetting how cheap Zun is, and this is certainly one of the reasons for the commercial success of a doujin maker, but I only took him as an example of surviving dev.
Cave knew well how to cut cost shoving tons of digitized sprites (honestly many looking like shit) and max out the pinku pyrotechnics, but they switched directors and designers from time to time which allowed for enough variety, the alt versions also didn't cost much and probably earned them very little only contributing to their image, but in the end their outrageaous formula worked, at least until enough arcades were still in business in Japan.
I don't see what kind of model independent STG devs could follow that would come even close to that, remain profitable and make the shmups market great again.
We've all seen the Steam attempt and some think it is the future for shmups, but I'm not convinced, the 'transition' didn't happen.
I think console platforms are the best territory, but looks like there remains only funds and devs for porting already existing games.

[Squire Grooktook]

What I've learned again recently from a meeting with some touhou fanboys (for the second or third time, I used to know some equally weird ones back in 2008 or so), is that the thing that made Zun such a force to be reckoned with (besides a few smart business practices in the doujin community) was his story and characters. Seriously.

I'm not saying they're good. But somehow, Zun has drilled into some sort of magical secret sauce in his insane and horrible writing style that appeals to a certain demographic and threatens to give everyone else an aneurysm.

"pffft, it's just cause it's got anime girls with a lot of good fan ar-"

No. Before Touhou there were thousands of better choices for waifus in games and general Japanese media. Today, there are even more choices. No...I have met with several Touhou maniacs - the kind of people who have really driven and proliferated the franchise both in Japan and abroad - and they are not all like your typical waifufags.

You see, Touhou lucked into the same kind of weird, obscure appeal that drives the most bizarre of fanbases. I'm talking fanbases like:

Sonic
Undertale
My Little Pony
And whatever the fuck mediocre flash cartoon everyone on tumblr is masturbating to these days

This is not your typical fanbase. This is the kind of fanbase that takes a simple and straightforward story for children and obsessively regards it it like it's somewhere between high art and a religious experience, and respects the creator as a literal genius of our times as they gobble up all his related media. There's almost nothing logical about it. Analysis of the stories, setting, and characters that they regard as personal friends yields not much particular depth, believability or artistry compared to other works (often less) that they could have chosen to obsess over. My theory is that these people have a screw loose, and some slightly off-kilter aspect of the writing style manages to worm its way into that screw in a way that is lost on people who don't write fan fiction about hedgehogs.

I'm not talking about the fairly decent stg player fanbase, or the casual fans. Or the guys who just jerk off to a doujin once in a while. No, beyond all that, Touhou is the fucking MLP of Japan for some unfathomable reason.

I have stared into the abyss of Touhou fandom. And it has stared back into me.

It is fucking insane.

[Xyga]

*shivers though*

Honestly I was trying to detach purely the games sales from the possibly really wrong reasons-for-purchase of these people.

And I really don't wish to ever see an eventual renaissance/new-boom of the genre that would be carried by a phenomenon similar to Touhou madness.

NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Nope.