Prelude to the Apocalypse

[Rob]

.

[Rob]

for months on end we've been hearing non-stop assertions that those not of European descent, very much including Native Americans, are not only objectively both genetically and culturally inferior to those of European descent but one hundred percent responsible for the problems that plague them:

...in order, as it happens, to attempt to directly counteract the environmentalist stance on this particular issue, despite literally years of declarations that he himself is an ardent environmentalist?

Underlined section is absolute fabrication. I've always thought highly of subsistence living and self-sufficiency in general. And I care about the environment, but the environment is not always the first or only thing to consider. My view is that we should focus on reducing our own consumption rather than waiting or hoping for the rug to be pulled out from under us.

Listening to Stefan and other wingnuts has been entertaining and somewhat enlightening.

Wingnut Stefan has a nice and long new video up: Why I Was Wrong About Nationalism. Tell me if you call in to his show and crush him in a debate about this stuff. I'd love to hear it. I'd really love to hear some great counterarguments to any of it because so far I've received about jack and shit from this thread.

[Zen]

What fiendish new device of ruin and despair does Torquemada now contrive?

Smoke-blowing and relentless tedium, with the stiffener that he is in it for the duration.

God save us all!

soul crushing loneliness

You say that, like it is a bad thing
In all seriousness, BryanM, infantile and ineffectual ad hominem?
You are in imminent danger of falling back into your "black men's cocks" sermon.

Spoiler

that's as far back as I care to go; anyone who wants more, there's plenty.

Since we're here now, why not take this logic one step further again? I ended up buried in the thread the other day and ran into something:

When undead claymation muppets disapprove of your weasally slimey way of life, it's time to re-evaluate things on a fundamental level.

Or make a video trashing PBS. He can't be blamed entirely for the graph's eccentric dimensions - he just borrowed it from Pew Research here.

Between 1965 and 2015, new immigrants, their children and their grandchildren accounted for 55% of U.S. population growth.

And values shift with shifting demographics, as he pointed out with the data on smaller vs. larger government and political party preference.

Listening to Stefan and other wingnuts has been entertaining and somewhat enlightening. I can at least say that I better understand their desire to wish upon a (reality TV) star and throw their dignity away.

Disregarding the tonal shift, there's something else glaringly obvious that's now being overshadowed. Rob is capable of understanding demographics. He can count, the same way as anyone who can will realise that net immigration is a drop in the ocean compared to the established groups that are already present, and that he and anyone else who wants to willingly box themselves into a corner aren't going to do a damn thing about it. Even the most craven culture warrior would be able to deliver a personal narrative with fewer holes than the one he's been spinning. Who's he taking issue with? "Tiny minorities in cahoots with liberals trying to destroy the ancestral culture and values I've only just now decided that I have." Who share this belief? "Normal people. Normal people with very high IQs. The most normal people you've ever seen." Why the change of heart to begin with? "..."

Was the prospect of being able to mash crotches with a few other preening isolationist tryhards really too good to be able to pass up? I'm still not buying it.

Disregarding the free-flow, Xgya flavoured screed (because, who the fuck has time) there is this, again;

Was the prospect of being able to mash crotches with a few other preening isolationist tryhards really too good to be able to pass up?

Have you and BryanM been reading the same book? Is it good? May I see it?

[BulletMagnet]

Well Trumpskis, you and the "moderate, principled fiscal conservatives" you put into office demanded it, you got it, just past midnight. Congratulations. And lest you forget, they're not even close to finished bilking you for all you're worth.

[BryanM]

It's a necessity to postpone the economic meltdown for around six to twelve more months. Gotta keep that casino going. If they can gut the welfare state to fill the hole they've made, we can have a second great depression and everything.

Who was saying that Trump was Hoover again?

[BulletMagnet]

Who was saying that the entirety of contemporary conservatism was Hoover again?

Fixed.

[BryanM]

What's a "contemporary conservatism" and how does it differ from capitalism from the last couple hundred years?

Hoover is a very specific figure that denotes the fall of a specific power bloc. So miserable was his failure, due to the guy who replaced them, they had to pass a constitutional amendment that made it illegal to love a president that much and it took them decades to completely and totally gut the Democratic party down to the pathetic creature it is today.

No political system can possibly guarantee either a national economic security or an individual standard of living. Government can guarantee no man a job or a livelihood

The same shit then is the same shit now, coming out of the exact same line of sperms.

[BulletMagnet]

Should said bloc be forced back into retreat this time around you might be onto something; the fact that it hasn't already happened, multiple times over, due to countless failures going back to at least Reagan doesn't have me holding my breath. As you say, it's the same intellectually-bankrupt, brazenly plutocratic garbage that led to the Depression, but tell any conservative that and they're certain to tell you what really happened and/or how this time will be different, unlike what all those fake historians and economists have been shoveling into your heads. And I can all but guarantee their tune won't change even after the shit hits the fan, because not only should it, again, have already happened hundreds of times over, but yeaaaah fuck yooouuu yeeeaahhh.

If the economic right finally gets what's coming to it, great; personally, again, I'm not holding my breath. The fact that we're even talking about this, frankly, is enough in itself to convince me as much.

[BryanM]

And I keep telling you we had an opportunity in Obama, but he's a conservative too, so why are you surprised he helped kill the democratic party? He's collecting his $millions in bribes as we speak.

It isn't the "conservatives" we have to convince to vote against themselves (Whatever that is. Gotta love these vague labels), it's the young people and the people who've given up on the political process.

Hillary nearly won the election somehow. Despite doing everything in her power to lose. That you don't think that's an incredible accomplishment for someone who would have been crushed by the electorate of the 80's under Reagan's shoe, means you might need some perspective on how much things have changed over the years.

[Rob]

Well Trumpskis,

lol. No "whoops, my bad" about the Steinle thing. No apology for offensively mischaracterizing my views. "Well Trumpskis," You really are something.

[BulletMagnet]

It isn't the "conservatives" we have to convince to vote against themselves (Whatever that is. Gotta love these vague labels), it's the young people and the people who've given up on the political process.

1) The "conservatives", however you care to define them, are already "voting against themselves" by any objective measure, and have been doing so for the better part of fifty years, with no sign of stopping. 2) I can't imagine that knowing that a significant portion of the population is so woefully uneducated about how the country works and/or yeaaaah-style embittered to have essentially controlled the country's electoral fate for most of the past half century - and whose influence is still growing, especially at the local level - isn't a significant part of what's caused so many people to tune out. I mean, even if you try to make at least a minimally-informed decision at the ballot box, a huge swath of the country has been deliberately and calculatingly convinced by the very people fleecing them to "go with their gut" (i.e. elect whoever makes the most ridiculous promises, notwithstanding any evidence that they'd actually be able to deliver) and furthermore mockingly decry those who don't (and especially those who speak about it openly) as "elitists" - why the hell even bother? If nothing else it's not the sort of problem that just sort of eventually solves itself.

you might need some perspective on how much things have changed over the years.

Once the budget shortfalls that result from the Billionaire Blowjob Act of 2017 inevitably skyrocket beyond initial projections as all that "trickle down" growth fails to materialize for the umpteenth time, see if Trump and company even bother to tick them back up a bit to pretend they care before sinking their fangs deep into Social Security (and no, the baked-in expiration date for the non-plutocratic cuts doesn't count), as Reagan and Bush 41 did; then we can talk about precisely what has changed, and how much.

@Rob - As I said, I'm pretty much done with you so long as you say stuff like this, once again ignoring the bulk of my remarks in favor of the bits you can parse for nits, while the rest of us are left waiting ad infinitum for your own "clarifications" on the UN wants to destroy white people, this document proves it or American attitudes towards the Irish haven't changed since the Declaration was signed, but what the hell -

Prosecutors initially charged Garcia Zarate with second-degree murder, which meant they had to show jurors he had a “willful disregard for human life” when he picked up the gun. But at the end of the trial, the judge agreed to the prosecutor’s request that jurors could also consider convicting him of first-degree murder if they believed Garcia Zarate meant to kill Steinle.

Michael Cardoza, a longtime San Francisco Bay Area lawyer said the prosecutor made a mistake by asking the jury to convict Garcia Zarate of first-degree murder despite strong evidence that the bullet ricocheted around 90 feet (27 meters) before fatally striking Steinle on July 1, 2015. Cardoza said a better case could have been made to convince jurors Garcia Zarate had a “reckless disregard for human life” and convicted him of second-degree murder.

“The prosecutor got greedy,” Cardoza said. “She lost credibility when she told jurors he pointed the gun at Kate Steinle.“

San Francisco Deputy District Attorney Diana Garcia argued the shooting was murder. The jury sided with the defense, which argued that the shooting was an accident, and found him guilty only of being a felon in possession of a firearm.

You want to string me up for my phrasing, you go right ahead. As I said, I've wasted enough time on your nonsense already. Enjoy the tax cut while you continue to bravely focus on the real source of our problems.

[Domino]

I wish Bernie would won so we can know how a socialist would run the White House. Even that I 95% disagree with socialism, I would give it a shot to see if it would make things better for the US.

If this Tax Bill does become law, I would benefit for it and I'm in the middle class. However, I'm not too happy that the national debt will increase even more.

[BryanM]

I wish Bernie would won so we can know how a socialist would run the White House. Even that I 95% disagree with socialism, I would give it a shot to see if it would make things better for the US.

We've come full circle! If you really feel that way, I've got this thing called the 2020 democratic primary you can chip into...

But seriously, it won't differ much from FDR. If you're happy with how things are going, you'll want to oppose him, because once the corporate dems are gone, they won't be coming back.

If this Tax Bill does become law, I would benefit for it and I'm in the middle class.

The comparison chart for those curious.

A single person making $50,000 currently would pay $5473.75 in income tax. The senate plan would change this to $4,369.50, for a savings of $1104.25 per year. That's if you're single.

If you have dependents, it is a smaller benefit. A married couple with no kids making $50,000 pays $3447.50. Under the senate plan, $2,739. +$708.50 a year for a married couple with no kids.

If you make $24,000 or less, of course there's no difference to you. Outside of any benefits and exemptions (such as the tuition waiver stuff the kids are concerned about which suddenly makes them liable to pay taxation on money they don't have) they take away from you... then it's pretty bad.

I believe that the proposed individual tax brackets are to be phased out in 10 years, while the corporate tax cuts are permanent, so it'll be a gift of between $7085 to $11,104.25 max in total, not considering any additional costs you may see elsewhere (I'm just talking about the raw brackets here), if you're earning a good income from a wage for the next ten years.

In the best case scenario that's a 2.48% raise for single people who're doing well for themselves. For those on top, it's a massive number that dwarfs that of course. And for those living on or near the minimum wage, well..........

by any objective measure

They're culture warriors. They're objectively getting everything they want: making people's lives who they don't like worse.

Stop thinking that everyone has the same value system as you. Many would be happy drowning if it means they can piss on Anita Sarkeesian's face.

Replace Anita with any other imagined adversary. It doesn't particularly matter.

furthermore mockingly decry those who don't as "elitists"

Is Hillary Clinton an "elitist". One in a privileged position working to advance the interests of others in a privileged position. Yes. Or no.

If yes, why are you complaining?

If no, what drugs are you on?

In an alternate universe I'm complaining about her massive corporate "tax credits" worth $trillions of debt right now.

[Mischief Maker]

I wish Bernie would won so we can know how a socialist would run the White House. Even that I 95% disagree with socialism, I would give it a shot to see if it would make things better for the US.

If this Tax Bill does become law, I would benefit for it and I'm in the middle class. However, I'm not too happy that the national debt will increase even more.

Well remember that socialism is not communism. It's an unfortunate choice of words on Bernie Sanders' behalf, but then this was a guy who chained himself to a black woman being arrested as part of the civil rights struggle so it's understandable he'd be inclined to more punchy rhetoric. His policies are mainly aimed at returning us to the golden age of the middle class, the 1950s, but without the segregation. FDR's second bill of rights. (edit: jinx!) In Western Europe he'd be considered a moderate.

Meanwhile Roy Moore is bouncing back in the polls, showing that murderers on death row have a stronger sense of justice when it comes to pedophiles than evangelical voters. If he wins, NAMBLA should set up their headquarters in Alabama.

[Specineff]

You know, living in the fifth most populous city in the USA, surrounded by a vast amount of other hispanics, along with middle-easterners, asians and africans,

I said that I find myself surrounded by a vast majority of hispanics, and there are other ethnicities around me, bonbon.

What's your point?

[GaijinPunch]

If this Tax Bill does become law, I would benefit for it and I'm in the middle class. However, I'm not too happy that the national debt will increase even more.

Explain please. The middle class gets fucked for this one...especially if you own a house, have college loans, or my favorite: pay local taxes.

[Domino]

Explain please. The middle class gets fucked for this one...especially if you own a house, have college loans, or my favorite: pay local taxes.

I have none of those. I should been more clear, this bill has major winners and losers. I have none of those above (and if I do own a home, condos only) since I'm in American's Wang. I did review the bill 100% and it sucks to be anyone living in a high-tax state. I'm seeing a lot more IL Tags in my neck of the woods, folks escaping from the nutty taxes that's in the Chicago area.

My taxes would decrease at the cost of of the national debt. Even if I benefit from lower taxes, I still think the bill sucks.

Well remember that socialism is not communism. It's an unfortunate choice of words on Bernie Sanders' behalf, but then this was a guy who chained himself to a black woman being arrested as part of the civil rights struggle so it's understandable he'd be inclined to more punchy rhetoric. His policies are mainly aimed at returning us to the golden age of the middle class, the 1950s, but without the segregation. FDR's second bill of rights. (edit: jinx!) In Western Europe he'd be considered a moderate.

Meanwhile Roy Moore is bouncing back in the polls, showing that murderers on death row have a stronger sense of justice when it comes to pedophiles than evangelical voters. If he wins, NAMBLA should set up their headquarters in Alabama.

When I say socialism, I mean socialism. Not communism.

If Moore wins, then the biggest LOL moment in 2017 will be that.

[Mischief Maker]

The hell of it is, they didn't even give it any candy coating like Bush jr's $300 check.

Republicans just said, "Fuck you! We work for the Kochs."

[Rob]

What's your point?

Upper right corner looks like a nice place to live.

[Domino]

The hell of it is, they didn't even give it any candy coating like Bush jr's $300 check.

Republicans just said, "Fuck you! We work for the Kochs."

When Democrats run Congress: "Fuck you! We work for Soros."

[Mischief Maker]

The hell of it is, they didn't even give it any candy coating like Bush jr's $300 check.

Republicans just said, "Fuck you! We work for the Kochs."

When Democrats run Congress: "Fuck you! We work for Soros."

This is why people voted for Bernie.

[GaijinPunch]

I have none of those. I should been more clear, this bill has major winners and losers. I have none of those above (and if I do own a home, condos only) since I'm in American's Wang. I did review the bill 100% and it sucks to be anyone living in a high-tax state. I'm seeing a lot more IL Tags in my neck of the woods, folks escaping from the nutty taxes that's in the Chicago area.

Condos still count, and are often more expensive than houses, so keep that in mind. IL tags have always been found in warm areas... especially this time of year (and it'll get worse in a few weeks... ).

Nobody's really calling Illinois a victim at this point. We do have high state income tax and property tax (the latter of which is about to go up in about 5 months), but the home values here are WAY more reasonable than California or NYC... the latter of which are going to get fucked the hardest from this. I'm a new home owner (less than a year), and am very pleased w/ my place. I show my friends in Tokyo, Cali, or New York what I got and how much I paid and they shit their pants. This bill wouldn't prevent me from buying, but I was looking to write off a few grand a year.

this bill has major winners and losers.

I still haven't figured out the winners in the middle/lower class.

The good news is w/ Congress taking the nuclear route, as long as we don't destroy ourselves until the pendulum swings the other way some of this can perhaps be undone.

[BulletMagnet]

Even if I benefit from lower taxes, I still think the bill sucks.

By every single measure I've encountered, most folks will end up paying far more in reduced public services and subsidies than they'll save in taxes. Of course, "most folks" were explicitly not the focus of this bill.

I wonder if anyone got the sense that something was a little off when the final nearly-500-page version of the bill was delivered to senators a few hours before the vote, chock full of often-unreadable hand-written additions and edits in the margins (and the closest thing anyone got to a response to complaints about it was this gem of contemporary conservative think tank output), and when Democrats asked for the weekend to actually look the thing over every single Republican said no. Meanwhile Mitch McConnell gets to spout off yet again about what he BELIEVES about the bill (because who needs procedural debate or objective analysis when you have beliefs, right?), and lets us know that, as with Trump, nobody's allowed to say anything bad about it for at least the next couple of years.

It's seriously beyond parody at this point. Especially since every one of these pigfuckers will be voted right back into office by the very people whose livelihoods they just put to the torch.

The good news is w/ Congress taking the nuclear route, as long as we don't destroy ourselves until the pendulum swings the other way some of this can perhaps be undone.

If this even happens we've seen this show before: remember how the GOP told the rest of us, traitors and terrorist sympathizers all, to go to hell for the entirety of the Bush years, and then as soon as Obama was elected demanded compromise (read: capitulation) on absolutely everything or else they'd just shut the government down, and all the "centrists" joined them in their rending of garments and gnashing of teeth for the love of sacred bipartisanship? They paid no price for this last time around, they've got no reason not to about-face while feigning principled consistency and do it all over again.

[Specineff]

What's your point?

Upper right corner looks like a nice place to live.

Doubt it. There aren't enough bigots and racists here to make you feel welcome. And seriously dude, just drop it. Your attempts have moved from laughable to pitiful; this isn't even trolling. You come off more as desperately needing to find validation for whatever you believe in, than to get any point across, and it's starting to wear thin.

[Obscura]

The "tax bill" is secretly a "make people on the coasts actually pay for the shit they vote for themselves at a local level" bill, which is good.

"Deduct your state/local taxes from your federal taxes" is fucking insanity -- it means a state can give itself an expensive new program, raise its local taxes to pay for it, and end up with the rest of the nation paying for that expensive program. States shouldn't be able to vote themselves freebies at the expense of other states like that.

[Domino]

Condos still count, and are often more expensive than houses, so keep that in mind. IL tags have always been found in warm areas... especially this time of year (and it'll get worse in a few weeks... ).

I see plenty of IL tags in the summer months in my complex. Soon those vehicles will have FL tags. I see them all the time here. On average Condos property taxes are cheaper than property and on the most part they aren't crazy overpriced here.

Nobody's really calling Illinois a victim at this point. We do have high state income tax and property tax (the latter of which is about to go up in about 5 months), but the home values here are WAY more reasonable than California or NYC... the latter of which are going to get fucked the hardest from this. I'm a new home owner (less than a year), and am very pleased w/ my place. I show my friends in Tokyo, Cali, or New York what I got and how much I paid and they shit their pants. This bill wouldn't prevent me from buying, but I was looking to write off a few grand a year.

The property tax in the Chicago area is NUTS! You can get major savings if you move to something like the Midwest or the South on average (but lol on Texas).

I still haven't figured out the winners in the middle/lower class.

Winners:

Big businesses
Smaller businesses
People who live in the poorer/lower taxed states in the Midwest and the South
Those who have children for tax purposes (bigger tax credit)
No student loan payment or high medical bills
Those who are too poor to get health insurance and no longer have to pay the Obamacare poor people tax
People with cheap Mortgage payments
People who income is about to be taxed less with the changes of the rate and the ranges of the rates (for me if this bill gets signed by the man in order I'll be paying 3% less taxes on the federal level)

Losers:

Anyone living in the Liberal High-Tax states (I would so love to live in Maine but the cost of living is too freaking high for the low salaries in that state, that's why I have three recent coworker transfers from Portland, ME in my office)
Those who have high student loan payments and medical bills (20+ crowd, yepppp)
High mortgage payments
Those who need Obamacare


If this bill pass I will expect more people in the North to move more to the South in order to take advantage of cheaper taxes. Still sucks since I enjoyed my time in Rural New England, but the tax cost and the cost of living is more than double than what I get in Florida.

By every single measure I've encountered, most folks will end up paying far more in reduced public services and subsidies than they'll save in taxes. Of course, "most folks" were explicitly not the focus of this bill.

Want to know what's funny? My dad lives in a mostly retirement area in Northern FL. His county has a high percentage of retirees, and they get major breaks on property taxes. Most of the retires complain about why they are
paying taxes for schools when they don't have children in the system (as usual, schools get their funding from Property Taxes).

People of all shapes and sizes would prefer to not even use public services if it means more money in their pocket. We already have two examples of that in Liberal States and Conservative States. My cousin growing up had some health issues and CT government actually provide a lot of funding for him on education and stuff to assist him with the health issues. Of course they can do that due to CT is a high tax state (which everyone pays the higher share of taxes to CT government, which by the way is unable to balance a budget). In FL we only have money because we tax the hell out of hotels from the tourist and higher sales tax/property tax. Now we should do a trip to AL and MS for what happens when you don't invest in public services.

This is why people voted for Bernie.

Thank you DNC for having Trump in the White House. Florida DNC still drives me nuts with "Debbie!" "Debbie!" My friend was one of the Bernie delegates in Phily DNC Convention 2016 and the slimeball nature of the DNC in general was appalling. She was in the room when Debbie got told to F off during the Convention. I blame her and Hillary for having Trump in the White House. They screw over Sanders and look what the hell we got out of it.

[ED-057]

In the best case scenario that's a 2.48% raise for single people

Woohoo! I'm gonna be rich! Hey, you guyz want to come over and party at my new mansion???

The middle class gets fucked for this one...especially if you own a house, have college loans, or my favorite: pay local taxes.

Wait, what?

The "tax bill" is secretly a "make people on the coasts actually pay for the shit they vote for themselves at a local level" bill, which is good.

"Deduct your state/local taxes from your federal taxes" is fucking insanity -- it means a state can give itself an expensive new program, raise its local taxes to pay for it, and end up with the rest of the nation paying for that expensive program. States shouldn't be able to vote themselves freebies at the expense of other states like that.

Meh. That's one hypothetical scenario. But if we were to revisit the map showing where federal tax dollars are collected and ultimately spent, ie. which states are paying more than they get back, and which states are paying less and getting more, you might reconsider.

OTOH, if one's local taxes are more than the standard deduction... that IS insanity.

[BulletMagnet]

Most of the retires complain about why they are paying taxes for schools when they don't have children in the system (as usual, schools get their funding from Property Taxes).

Because when poorly-educated kids become poorly-educated adults with no opportunities to build themselves a decent living nor any clue how to do the things adults need to do ("caring for the elderly" is probably somewhere on the list), everyone suffers. The same principle goes for police, firefighters, utilities, parks, Social Security, you name it: the idea is that even if you're not directly benefiting from it right this second you're living in a better society because of them. One can debate whether particular elements are sufficiently effective to be worth the cost (and before you do, be sure to take a look at the success rate of places that have tried private-sector replacements for them), but when the "I've got mine, the rest of you can go screw yourselves" perspective takes hold on a wide enough scale, that's when plutocratic shit like the recent tax bill happens, because nobody has more will nor means to tell everyone else to go screw themselves than those at the very top.

[Domino]

Most of the retires complain about why they are paying taxes for schools when they don't have children in the system (as usual, schools get their funding from Property Taxes).

Because when poorly-educated kids become poorly-educated adults with no opportunities to build themselves a decent living nor any clue how to do the things adults need to do ("caring for the elderly" is probably somewhere on the list), everyone suffers. The same principle goes for police, firefighters, utilities, parks, Social Security, you name it: the idea is that even if you're not directly benefiting from it right this second you're living in a better society because of them. One can debate whether particular elements are sufficiently effective to be worth the cost (and before you do, be sure to take a look at the success rate of places that have tried private-sector replacements for them), but when the "I've got mine, the rest of you can go screw yourselves" perspective takes hold on a wide enough scale, that's when plutocratic shit like the recent tax bill happens, because nobody has more will nor means to tell everyone else to go screw themselves than those at the very top.

Oh I know, that's why I did a on my statement. This might be the only time we will agree on anything politically BM. Still it doesn't stop the various retirees who will complain about them paying for schools and other crap.

[GaijinPunch]

The "tax bill" is secretly a "make people on the coasts actually pay for the shit they vote for themselves at a local level" bill, which is good.

"Deduct your state/local taxes from your federal taxes" is fucking insanity -- it means a state can give itself an expensive new program, raise its local taxes to pay for it, and end up with the rest of the nation paying for that expensive program. States shouldn't be able to vote themselves freebies at the expense of other states like that.

Yeah, now that we can't write off state taxes I'm sure the spending will all be roped in and John Q Taxpayer won't get butt fucked in some urban dictionary worth sex position involving a state and the federal govt.