XRGB-mini Framemeister

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AugenWurst
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by AugenWurst »

Hi,
I need help with my RGB modded PAL N64.
Do I need a CSYNC or Sync on Luma RGB cable for the XRGB-mini?
GraphicNoise
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by GraphicNoise »

AndysSeveredHead wrote:Nope, it didn't work. I'd have gotten an OSSC by now if I didn't think it would be impossible for me to figure out how to output to my TV with sound. So far, Silent Hill, Parappa and Um Jammer Lammy are all my games that are incompatible with LCD TV's. Looks like I'm gonna have to find a nice CRT soon...
Ah, too bad. You're playing on an NTSC console, right? Maybe it's really a region-specific issue.
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Bobster
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by Bobster »

AndysSeveredHead wrote:
Nope, it didn't work. I'd have gotten an OSSC by now if I didn't think it would be impossible for me to figure out how to output to my TV with sound. So far, Silent Hill, Parappa and Um Jammer Lammy are all my games that are incompatible with LCD TV's. Looks like I'm gonna have to find a nice CRT soon...
For what it's worth, the 1.6 version of the OSSC comes with audio over HDMI now. Not sure if you were aware they changed it to include audio and is no longer a DVI connection.
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FBX
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by FBX »

Recent developments in RGB color space modes on TVs and capture devices (limited and full) have lead me to a bit of an issue:

Some time back, I found that certain HDMI mods like the UltraHDMI and the NES AVS expect to output in "Full" RGB color space mode. As such, I had started calibrating all my Framemeister profiles with my TV set to Full RGB mode. This made it so I could switch between HDMI consoles and the Framemeister, and everything would have proper brightness and black levels.

Now with the SNES Classic expecting Limited RGB mode, I'm starting to see a conflict. Furthermore, I've been conversing with Try4ce from MLiG who found better results with PS2 profiles that were adjusted based on a Limited RGB display mode. I made some profiles based on both Full and Limited display modes, and indeed his capture results were indicating we need to calibrate based on Limited rather than Full.

Keep in mind I'm not referring to the Framemeister's own Limited and Full RGB modes. That should always be set to "Full" regardless. The question here is whether I should ditch the profiling based on Full mode of the display/capture device and release new ones based on Limited mode, or just release a separate set based on Limited mode.

To give an example of the difference, PS2 component on Full RGB display mode should need a Brightness value of around 36 to hit the proper threshold. In Limited RGB mode, this threshold value goes up to 48. This is of course based on Gamma default value of 10, and a black level value of 1. You can lower Brightness down and bring Gamma up to compensate and reduce overscan noise, but at the cost of some slight darker color fidelity loss. An example of this would be Brightness 40, Gamma 20, Black Level 1.

I'd be interested in hearing opinions on this and how I should proceed.

-FBX
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by Fudoh »

Limited RGB is a bastard mode, which was completely unneccessary in the first place. Nintendo is about the only company to use it. And yes, it's a pain. If you're switching from full range to limited range RGB on your FM profiles, you're causing a lot of problems for users of PC monitors instead of TVs.

Remember that any capture results are compromised by that the fact that you always end up with a range compression, either by directly capturing in YCbCr or by converting to YCbCr during encoding. Especially on devices that only capture in YCbCr (e.g. all the Elgato or Avermedia boxes), the range controls are most often misused (or misunderstood). This starts with wrong video playback settings and ends with browsers not being able to properly convert the limited range on Youtube's videos to the full range profile required by the monitor.

Setting the FM to full range while using the TV in limited mode and calibrating to that combination is nonsense. Please don't do that - - or if you do it for yourself, please don't encourage other people to do the same. While some other systems have range settings as well, you're completely killing "calibrated" compatibility with simpler VGA or YUV to HDMI conversion boxes or even PCs connected through HDMI, which don't offer as easy offset controls as the FM does.

Also, if you're using off-spec calibration on your FM profiles, you're screwing everybody that uses properly adjusted capturing devices.

And - last but not least - many TVs do indeed have working auto-sensing range settings, that actually work with the NES/SNES Mini. And if your TV doesn't feature that option, why not consider using two HDMI inputs ? One for your full range RGB sources and another one for your limited range ones.
nissling
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by nissling »

Like Fudoh stated, there's some stuff you should avoid. Drugs, tobacco, extremists and limited range RGB.

One thing that should be noted in your example regarding using the Ps2 with a component cable is that full range YUV is risky. In fact, full range YCbCr isn't accepted by the HDMI protocol. With analogue sources we're not talking about video vs full levels of course but rather 0IRE vs. 7.5IRE. I'm not sure what reference level the Ps2 outputs at when using YPbPr but it's certainly not all cut and clear when it comes to this subject with all consoles.

I'd say focus on full range RGB and let Nintendo learn their stuff. They're like the gaming equivalent to Apple and will probably never change in that regard.
ZellSF
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by ZellSF »

Pretty sure the Switch supports full range RGB.
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FBX
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by FBX »

Fudoh wrote:
And - last but not least - many TVs do indeed have working auto-sensing range settings, that actually work with the NES/SNES Mini. And if your TV doesn't feature that option, why not consider using two HDMI inputs ? One for your full range RGB sources and another one for your limited range ones.
My TV does have an "Auto" mode, but strangely it always seems to think everything wants Limited output. As such, I just don't trust it. I would do like you say and set aside a 2nd HDMI port for Limited devices like the SNES Classic, but I have everything going into my Sony A/V receiver first. I suppose I could use the Limited mode HDMI port on the TV for the SNES Classic and then use the TV's digital audio out for sound (which I already have routed back into the receiver).

Anyway, interesting opinions! It does save me a LOT of hassle if I don't have to cater to Limited RGB mode, but I will say it seems some capture devices expect this. That's why Try4ce was having trouble with my test profile appearing too dark on his captures.
nissling wrote:
One thing that should be noted in your example regarding using the Ps2 with a component cable is that full range YUV is risky. In fact, full range YCbCr isn't accepted by the HDMI protocol. With analogue sources we're not talking about video vs full levels of course but rather 0IRE vs. 7.5IRE. I'm not sure what reference level the Ps2 outputs at when using YPbPr but it's certainly not all cut and clear when it comes to this subject with all consoles.
My example doesn't deal with PS2 component by itself. I was rather referring to the settings on the Framemeister's output of PS2 component. When using a display's Full RGB mode, PS2 component on a Framemeister must have the brightness raised to 36 and the saturation lowered to 25. When the TV is set to Limited, the Framemeister's brightness must be raised even higher to around 48.
StrzxgvNuvWvfld
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by StrzxgvNuvWvfld »

This evening I set up my PS2 for the first time in ages to play some PS1 games. For some reason, the Framemeister is outputting them all at 480i (even though they're definitely 240p titles). Any idea what could be causing this? I have a "fat" pal PS2 with a Messiah 2 chip (it's pretty old :) ), connected to the Framemeister via component. The same problem exists using "official" releases and burned discs. The games I'm trying are all NTSC-J. 240p PS2 games seem to be outputting correctly, it's just PS1 titles.
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by Fudoh »

Many of the cheaper modchips were notorious for that exact problem and it only affects NTSC PS1 titles played on PAL PS2 machines.
AndysSeveredHead
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by AndysSeveredHead »

Bobster wrote:
AndysSeveredHead wrote:
Nope, it didn't work. I'd have gotten an OSSC by now if I didn't think it would be impossible for me to figure out how to output to my TV with sound. So far, Silent Hill, Parappa and Um Jammer Lammy are all my games that are incompatible with LCD TV's. Looks like I'm gonna have to find a nice CRT soon...
For what it's worth, the 1.6 version of the OSSC comes with audio over HDMI now. Not sure if you were aware they changed it to include audio and is no longer a DVI connection.
I had no idea! I need to start paying more attention to that project... Is there a catch?
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TheShadowRunner
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by TheShadowRunner »

StrzxgvNuvWvfld wrote:This evening I set up my PS2 for the first time in ages to play some PS1 games. For some reason, the Framemeister is outputting them all at 480i (even though they're definitely 240p titles). Any idea what could be causing this? I have a "fat" pal PS2 with a Messiah 2 chip (it's pretty old :) ), connected to the Framemeister via component. The same problem exists using "official" releases and burned discs. The games I'm trying are all NTSC-J. 240p PS2 games seem to be outputting correctly, it's just PS1 titles.
Yeah the Messiah2 was known to screw up with PS1 video output.
As long as the chip is active, the flaw will be there even for originals.
Try to disable the chip, i don't remember if there's a button combo or something, but I believe so, and try that original again, you'll see the difference immediately.
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Bobster
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by Bobster »

AndysSeveredHead wrote:
Bobster wrote:
AndysSeveredHead wrote:
Nope, it didn't work. I'd have gotten an OSSC by now if I didn't think it would be impossible for me to figure out how to output to my TV with sound. So far, Silent Hill, Parappa and Um Jammer Lammy are all my games that are incompatible with LCD TV's. Looks like I'm gonna have to find a nice CRT soon...
For what it's worth, the 1.6 version of the OSSC comes with audio over HDMI now. Not sure if you were aware they changed it to include audio and is no longer a DVI connection.
I had no idea! I need to start paying more attention to that project... Is there a catch?
No catch that I know of! No more need for a separate add-on board.

Then again, I haven't received mine yet so who knows. No one has said anything on the OSSC thread to indicate any problems though.
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by TooBeaucoup »

PopetherevXXVIII wrote:I joined just to ask this one question.

How do I get the N64 to not look like either Vasoline or fecal matter was smeared on my screen?
I'm using a slightly modified Firebrand 5x Profile, with an Unmodded N64 going though S-video.
I'm thinking maybe it's not my settings and the N64 graphics that I see that look crisp are from emulators.
Or maybe there is a setting I just haven't tried yet.
Sadly, there's not a whole lot you can do about this. It's just the nature of the N64 on HDTVs. However, modding the N64 with RGB definitely helps. Also, you can use a Gameshark to disable the N64's anti-aliasing (Blur) effect in most games and coupled with RGB, it looks damn nice on an HDTV. However, even through s-video, using a Gameshark to disable anti-aliasing would probably help.

Short of that, the N64 HDMI mod makes it look really nice, but that's expensive to have installed and or pretty tricky to install yourself. And I find that an RGB mod with the Gameshark doing the de-blur looks pretty much the same, to my eyes.

Here's pictures of my N64 via RGB using the Gameshark to de-blur.

Image

Image

Image
StrzxgvNuvWvfld
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by StrzxgvNuvWvfld »

TheShadowRunner wrote:
StrzxgvNuvWvfld wrote:This evening I set up my PS2 for the first time in ages to play some PS1 games. For some reason, the Framemeister is outputting them all at 480i (even though they're definitely 240p titles). Any idea what could be causing this? I have a "fat" pal PS2 with a Messiah 2 chip (it's pretty old :) ), connected to the Framemeister via component. The same problem exists using "official" releases and burned discs. The games I'm trying are all NTSC-J. 240p PS2 games seem to be outputting correctly, it's just PS1 titles.
Yeah the Messiah2 was known to screw up with PS1 video output.
As long as the chip is active, the flaw will be there even for originals.
Try to disable the chip, i don't remember if there's a button combo or something, but I believe so, and try that original again, you'll see the difference immediately.
Thanks for your reply. The problem is, my originals are Japanese, so they won't boot with the mod chip disabled! Do you know if this is just an issue with older chips? If I get hold of a PS2 with a Matrix Infinity, will it display 240P? Or should I just get a chipped PSX (which is cheaper, but it would be nice to have both consoles in one!)
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by Fudoh »

If I get hold of a PS2 with a Matrix Infinity, will it display 240P?
yes, it does.
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TheShadowRunner
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by TheShadowRunner »

Fudoh wrote:
If I get hold of a PS2 with a Matrix Infinity, will it display 240P?
yes, it does.
DMS4 Pro SE here, and I can confirm it works flawlessly.
Everblue
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by Everblue »

I got a PS1 connected to the Framemeister via an official Sony PS1 Scart cable and the adapter with a sync stripper. Is this the best way to get a clean picture out of the PS1 or AC sync over luma would give a better picture? Thanks!
StrzxgvNuvWvfld
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by StrzxgvNuvWvfld »

Fudoh wrote:
If I get hold of a PS2 with a Matrix Infinity, will it display 240P?
yes, it does.
Excellent, thanks. Might be time to retire my trusty fat PS2. It has served me well!
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FBX
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by FBX »

Spent a few hours tonight working on the final pass of PS2 profiling. Thankfully I didn't have to worry about juggling display RGB space modes of 'Limited' or 'Full' as it turns out the Framemeister's "AUTO" output mode ignores these spaces anyway in favor of YCBCR. Since "AUTO" output mode is the only way on the Framemeister to avoid the nasty green bias on RGB sources, I'm sticking with it as my template for profiles. Here's the package update:

Code: Select all

70PS2IN2   --  NTSC Sony PS2 480i Component and RGB Output 2X vertical scaled.

71PS2PR2   --  NTSC Sony PS2 480p Component output 2X vertical scaled.

72PS2IW2   --  NTSC Sony PS2 480i Component and RGB output 2X vertical scaled, 16:9 AR.

73PS2PW2   --  NTSC Sony PS2 480p Component output 2X vertical scaled, 16:9 AR.

80PS214X   --  NTSC Sony PS2's PS1 mode 240p Component and RGB Output 4X vertical scaled.

81PS215X   --  NTSC Sony PS2's PS1 mode 240p Component and RGB Output 5X vertical scaled.
All of these profiles are set to component input by default, so you will need to press the RGB input button on your remote after loading them if you plan on using RGB cables for your PS2. You can re-save the profiles to use RGB input by default as needed. However, after calibrating PS2 component output using official cables, I find this format to be every bit as good as RGB for the PS2 on the Framemeister, and since 480p works perfectly this way, it is my recommendation to use component cables for the PS2.

Direct link to the new package:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/fra ... -10-15.zip

-FBX
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Blair
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by Blair »

thanks for the component profiles FBX, I've been messing around with your earlier PS2 profiles to make some videos. are the colors already pre-calibrated in these profiles? because I've heard of problems with component being a bit oversaturated (I also noticed this a bit in my own testing especially on games that are already very colorful)
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FBX
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by FBX »

Blair wrote:thanks for the component profiles FBX, I've been messing around with your earlier PS2 profiles to make some videos. are the colors already pre-calibrated in these profiles? because I've heard of problems with component being a bit oversaturated (I also noticed this a bit in my own testing especially on games that are already very colorful)
Yes, these new profiles are obsessively calibrated. They should look pretty consistent from component to RGB.
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Blair
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by Blair »

FBX wrote:
Yes, these new profiles are obsessively calibrated. They should look pretty consistent from component to RGB.
fantastic! can't wait to give them a shot.
TooBeaucoup wrote: Here's pictures of my N64 via RGB using the Gameshark to de-blur.
Spoiler
Image
TooBeaucoup, that actually looks pretty nice. I don't have a game shark but I've heard this can be done with IPS patches to roms and then played on a flash cart (like the one I have), but when I looked into it there was over six different options that could be tweaked per game to get different results, so I was a little bit overwhelmed on what actually needs to be adjusted for the best quality picture. ( anybody have a decent tutorial?)
jamisonia
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by jamisonia »

Firebrand

I have a request. Could you be a bit more explicit in your notes about profiles? I seem to remember you used to say that I should turn on overscan mode on my TV when using 4x profiles, but those instructions appear to be gone, so I'm not sure if I made that up. Also the producer and Deep Color profiles? What are the differences? Should I be using one of those if they work with my setup? Do you need to turn deep color on my TV when using deep color? Or Nonstandard RGB mode?
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Kez
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by Kez »

jamisonia wrote:Firebrand

I have a request. Could you be a bit more explicit in your notes about profiles? I seem to remember you used to say that I should turn on overscan mode on my TV when using 4x profiles, but those instructions appear to be gone, so I'm not sure if I made that up. Also the producer and Deep Color profiles? What are the differences? Should I be using one of those if they work with my setup? Do you need to turn deep color on my TV when using deep color? Or Nonstandard RGB mode?
FBX can correct me if I'm wrong on any of this:

As far as overscan goes, if you enable scanlines and they look even - your TV is in the right mode.

Regular profiles have the viewing area cropped so that junk in the overscan areas is hidden, producer profiles have this feature removed for people who want to use the footage in videos they are cropping/editing themselves.

Deep color modes have been shown to reduce noise in the output, but cause issues with quite a few TVs so are off by default. If your TV works with deep color enabled on the output you shouldn't need to change any settings.
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FBX
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by FBX »

jamisonia wrote:Firebrand

I have a request. Could you be a bit more explicit in your notes about profiles? I seem to remember you used to say that I should turn on overscan mode on my TV when using 4x profiles, but those instructions appear to be gone, so I'm not sure if I made that up. Also the producer and Deep Color profiles? What are the differences? Should I be using one of those if they work with my setup? Do you need to turn deep color on my TV when using deep color? Or Nonstandard RGB mode?
In regards to TV settings, I stopped worrying about recommending overscan modes. Scanlines and ultimately the pixels themselves look the best/sharpest when your TV is set to 1:1 or 'Full' mode. A such, I leave it up to the user to decide whether they want to change their TV's overscan settings. I just stick with Full mode on my display.

I'm pretty sure there's information about the producer profiles in one of the supplied text documents. If anything, you'd find news about them in the package history text file. What they are is for youtube personalities that want to post-edit their own border cropping, so I made theme with larger overscan areas to compensate for center timings being different on each person's setup.

Deep Color profiles have the Framemeister set to output in 12-bit color mode over HDMI. This has the effect of reducing noise in the picture, but some HDMI switchers and displays don't work with it. They are offered for people that can actually use them without issue, as they are the best the Framemeister can get in terms of noise levels. They have nothing to do with your TV's own deep color mode, so you don't have to worry about that.

Edit: The Package Version History text file does contain all the information. However, I went ahead and added the information to the profile descriptions text file. That should cover everything now.
elevengames
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by elevengames »

I'm running into an issue with my setup and I'm curious if anyone here has experienced it or has a workaround. I have a Genesis, PS1, and Dreamcast that I would like to connect to a Selecty 21 which connects to an XRGB mini. Currently, both the PS1 and Genesis work while going through the switch, but the Dreamcast does not. The intended flow goes like this:

Dreamcast -> Toro -> SCART to JP21 cable (from Retro Access) -> Selecty 21 switch -> XRGB mini

If I have the Dreamcast setup going through the switch, I get audio, but no video. The XRGB mini indicates it's not getting a signal. If I bypass the switch, and connect the Toro directly into the XRGB mini, the Dreamcast works and looks great.

I've seen people post on this forum indicating they have a similar intended setup as myself, and I've seen videos of people with similar setups, and I can't figure out if I'm doing something wrong or have a faulty piece of hardware somewhere in the chain. If anyone has any tips or suggestions, they'd be most appreciated.
rule_z
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by rule_z »

My setup is very similar:

Dreamcast -> Toro -> SCART -> gscartsw switch -> XRGB mini

And everything works fine, I think your problem is the Selecty switch. Maybe it doesn't handle the 480p signal from scart?
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Kez
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by Kez »

It may be worth trying to increase the sync_level setting if you haven't already. The signal coming from the Selecty might not be as strong as the one direct from the Toro.
elevengames
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Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister

Post by elevengames »

rule_z wrote:My setup is very similar:

Dreamcast -> Toro -> SCART -> gscartsw switch -> XRGB mini

And everything works fine, I think your problem is the Selecty switch. Maybe it doesn't handle the 480p signal from scart?
It doesn’t output video in RGB mode either. I’m thinking about going the gscartsw route anyways once pre-orders open up again.

Kez - I’ll try increasing the sync level later today. Thank you for the suggestion!
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