XRGB-mini Framemeister

[FBX]

Yeah the Sonic 2 split screen is such a weird gimmick that upscalers can't seem to handle the output of it. I don't know the technical details, but there's yet to be a workaround other than getting a CRT.

[paulb_nl]

I'm comparing my OSSC to my XRGB-mini right now (don't really if I should post here or in the OSSC topic...) but I had my first drop-out on both units today: can't play Sonic 2, for Sega Genesis (High Def Version 1, NTSC, RGBs), 2-Player (screen goes blank or garbled on the bottom - sound still plays).

Check out the Genesis settings on OSSC wiki: http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?titl ... c_settings

If you want to play games that use the Megadrive/Genesis interlace mode (such as Sonic 2 in 2 player mode) adjust the H-PLL coast options so that pre is set to 3 and post is set to 3.

[Dochartaigh]

Thanks for the info, and I'll check out that link (right now all I can do is turn my OSSC to RGBs and turn scanlines on - NOTHING else - don't even know how to work the remote properly yet lol).

[FBX]

Cool! Glad there's a setting that works in the OSSC.

[Nandi]

So, I really don't want to start a new topic for this, let me know if I should.

I recently bought an Extron USP 405 video processor, great little unit, can upscale and downscale very well without any latency.

It's great when I am using it for up or downscaling on CRTs, but there is a little problem with LCDs. It can produce an image up to 1080p, but it is not autofitting the picture on any screen. I can move, stretch and zoom the picture however I like, but no autofitting. Is there any way or method to fit the image perfectly, or is it basically trial and error? Or am I just f*cked and cannot get integer scaling out of this on and LCD?

[GraphicNoise]

Hi everybody!

After following all your amazing discussions and reading Fudoh's and FBX's large amount of info for years I've finally bought an XRGB mini myself about a month ago. I instantly fell in love with the extreme amount of settings and the overall video quality. I use PAL systems, so some of my consoles required a lot of tweaking, but I even managed to get a good quality from my Saturn, which was a little resistant at first ^_^

The one thing that's been bugging me a lot though is the long dropout when PS1 games change their resolution, like from 240p to 480i (e.g. Chrono Cross' menu screen, Mr. Driller G's title screen/videos) or 288p tp 576i (Vagrant Story's title screen). As I understand it, there's no solution for that yet, right? After reading up a bit on the topic it seemed to me that CSYNC might be the way to go, but the more I read and think about it the less it makes sense. I have to say that while I really like the XRGB, I can't help but feel very disappointed by that one thing - I can even plug the RGB cable straight into my HDTV and play those games without issues and in a near-XRGB quality (which honestly surprised me as the Saturn looks a lot better on the XRGB).

Weirdly enough I see many posts of people who have those issues with Sega consoles, specifically the MD (Sonic 2) and the Saturn, though as I mentioned the latter was actually quite easy to handle. I might have to go through all of my Saturn games though to see if it really covers all, I've only tried 5-8 from all 3 regions so far.

What actually had an effect was turning off the auto sync as suggested by many people online, though that only leads to complete and utter visual chaos in form of a nice glitch show when the games switch from their interlaced double resolution back to their original progressive resolution. Sadly no sync level value produces any recognizable image.

Any idea if and how that issue could be solved? Any help is appreciated ^_^

[Kez]

Any idea if and how that issue could be solved? Any help is appreciated ^_^

There really is no solution to this problem on the Framemeister, and it is extremely unlikely that there ever will be unfortunately.

Presumably the only reason you have not experienced the problem on Saturn is that you haven't played any games that change resolution, Castlevania SOTN or Virtua Fighter 2 on Saturn do it if you have that to try. Saturn Bomberman also does it on the "10 player" arena.

The OSSC handles these transitions a lot better, but even then there can be issues depending on your display.

[GraphicNoise]

Ah, that's a bummer, really. I've watched a few more videos from the MLIG guys and noticed they even mention the Chrono Cross issues - I wonder why I hadn't noticed before.

Weirdly Virtua Fighter 2 was the first game I tried on the Saturn and it went pretty well. I also just tried Virtua Fighter Kids and Fighters Megamix (also Saturn Bomberman's 10 player mode as you suggested) as they seem to be the ones with the strongest switch effect according to the web. I had to turn auto sync off, but aside from occasional frame skips nothing happens and there are no dropouts. Sadly I don't own SOTN, so I can't check that one.

So far it seems only 5 of my PS1 games are affected by the long dropouts, which makes it a little more bearable:
Chrono Cross (switching to the menu, unplayable if you reload the profile while in the menu)
Vagrant Story (only on title screen, no big deal)
Mr. Driller G (title screen and main menu, cutscenes won't play properly if you reload the profile while in the menu)
Silent Hill (inventory, gets quite annoying)
Wild Arms (only on title screen)

I might try out my entire collection later.

Playing them via RGB or emulator on my HDTV instead or getting them digitally from PSN seems to be the way to go for those titles. I have to say though I'm seriously considering selling the Framemeister because of that...the dropouts really make it drop in value for me and so far the only useful scenario for it I can imagine is if I'd ever end up with an HDTV that doesn't have scart input. Well, that's highly likely given today's HDTVs, but who knows how many years my TV will last.

Also for some reason the Framemeister keeps switching back to japanese every 2-3 startups since the firmware update - I can read most of it, but it's still annoying. The euro scart adapter cable that came with it also seems to have some loose contacts an loses one of the RGB channels sometimes...let's say I had some bad luck and it didn't turn out as well as I hoped

[Kez]

Weirdly Virtua Fighter 2 was the first game I tried on the Saturn and it went pretty well. I also just tried Virtua Fighter Kids and Fighters Megamix (also Saturn Bomberman's 10 player mode as you suggested) as they seem to be the ones with the strongest switch effect according to the web. I had to turn auto sync off, but aside from occasional frame skips nothing happens and there are no dropouts. Sadly I don't own SOTN, so I can't check that one.

Virtua Fighter 2 just takes a while to load the character select screen, not game breaking but gives you a bit less time to choose. Games with infrequent switches are really not a big deal as it just means waiting a little while. It is when you have to wait constantly that it becomes annoying (like a menu you have to use a lot).

Playing them via RGB or emulator on my HDTV instead or getting them digitally from PSN seems to be the way to go for those titles. I have to say though I'm seriously considering selling the Framemeister because of that...the dropouts really make it drop in value for me and so far the only useful scenario for it I can imagine is if I'd ever end up with an HDTV that doesn't have scart input. Well, that's highly likely given today's HDTVs, but who knows how many years my TV will last.

Yeah, the Framemeister is a much better sell if you are trying to play 16-bit era games (or purely 480i games like a lot of the PS2 library). It might be worth considering the OSSC if you do decide to sell, it should perform a lot better with the 480i/240p switching (though results may vary depending on your TV).

Also for some reason the Framemeister keeps switching back to japanese every 2-3 startups since the firmware update - I can read most of it, but it's still annoying. The euro scart adapter cable that came with it also seems to have some loose contacts an loses one of the RGB channels sometimes...let's say I had some bad luck and it didn't turn out as well as I hoped

The language switching is strange. It sounds like maybe the firmware is updating again somehow? It might be worth deleting the firmware files from the SD card to see if that stops it, if that doesn't work redownload the firmware and try updating it again.

If the SCART issue is happening a lot, open up the SCART head and see if there are any obviously loose connections there. It should be fairly easy to fix them if you have any experience with a soldering iron. Also check to see if any of the exposed wire could be touching sometimes, might be just a bit of electrical tape will fix the problem.

[leonk]

UPDATE: I was trying to solve a gscartsw compatibility issue today with borti's awesome 7374 rgb amp in a snes jr (problem was ebay lady putting 175ohm resistor on csync instead of 330!)

... and ... jailbars are gone from XRGB with LPF off!! the problem is not lack of LPF! the problem was the scart cable! So if you have jailbars in output, check the csync. It should have 330 ohm resistor!

[GraphicNoise]

Yeah, the Framemeister is a much better sell if you are trying to play 16-bit era games (or purely 480i games like a lot of the PS2 library). It might be worth considering the OSSC if you do decide to sell, it should perform a lot better with the 480i/240p switching (though results may vary depending on your TV).

Update on this: I gave it another try with a fresh mind today and actually managed to remove the switching dropout from Chrono Cross, Silent Hill and Mr. Driller G:

• Silent Hill:
  Simply turn off auto sync. I played with the sync level, but couldn't find any difference between the values, so just keep it at the default 9.

• Chrono Cross:
  This is a bit against the purpose of the Framemeister, but: Turn off auto sync and set the output to 1080i. In my case this completely removed the dropouts and also the constant shaking in the menu I had in 1080p (this is probably caused by a PAL system playing an NTSC game though). Admittedly, the menu doesn't look that great then and still shakes a tiny bit every few seconds, but if your goal is to play Chrono Cross on an HDTV without Scart input, that's the way to go.
  I actually noticed that while my HDTV's internal scaler handles both modes really well, it DOES also have a very short hiccup when switching, but not a complete dropout. Never noticed that before.
  On thing worth noting: You shouldn't change the output while you're in the menu (= 480i mode) as it will still screw up the actual game footage.

• Mr. Driller G:
  Same as with Chrono Cross. Setting the output to 1080i removes the shaking effect and results in a lesser image quality, but you can still play the game very well. Also don't change the output while in 480i mode.

I'll probably use direct RGB to HDTV for those games for now, but it's great to know there's a workaround

What I didn't notice before was that I had the Saturn profiles set to 1080i for some reason, probably did that during my initial Saturn setup. Judging from CC's behaviour this might be the reason why I didn't have any issues with resolution switching on the Saturn.

The language switching is strange. It sounds like maybe the firmware is updating again somehow? It might be worth deleting the firmware files from the SD card to see if that stops it, if that doesn't work redownload the firmware and try updating it again.

Still haven't figure out what's causing this, though. I tested it a few more times and it's basically this:
- Turn on, language is japanese.
- Switch to english.
- Turn off & on again, language is english.
- Turn off & on again, language is japanese again.

There are no firmware files left on the SD card. It's really weird. I'll try reinstall it later.

[Blair]

Blair, congrats on adding the FM to your lineup. You'll learn to enjoy it.

Thanks! It's been pretty neat messing with scaling options so far. need another piece of gear or two to get my recording setup fully integrated with the frameMeister. And with a CRT or low input lag digital display, latency hasn't really been much of an issue. (The two major things keeping me away from the FM were latency and the color noise issue)

regarding the N64: there are N64 revisions out there which cause the FM to add the same false contouring to the N64's RGB image as it does with 480p sources. My particular N64 for example. (http://pms.hazard-city.de/n64mini.jpg the top images use a setting that's usually great for 240p sources, while on the lower images the image is blurred horizontally using the FM's settings).

That's really strange. Is that true of all the RGB modifications possible for those particular boards revisions Or do the newer ones with blur reduction defeat that quirk?

yes, the Marvell won't handle those 60Hz flicker effects properly, but hey - there's a night and day differentce in sharpness between a 480i image processed on the FM and the DVDOs as well as in the details that are retained in the background. The really outstanding point is that you get overall results from 480i on the Mini that are comparable to 480p on a CII. Zero blurring which all other processors add. And the DVDOs pretty much revert to single field interpolation once you use forced video deinterlacing and you get hefty motion. The FM in comparison is breathtakingly good..

yes its motion handling is quite excellent, i'm thinking maybe the reason they left the less pretty looking Bob de-interlacing in was that it can show certain effects that the higher-quality deinterlacing can't (but those are fairly rare instances). Similar to what the game mode on dvdo units could do. (It also looks a little bit more
'CRT" like for some things I guess) haven't had the time this month but I really want to make some in-depth videos on the de-interlacing of the FM.

And as much as a respect FBX's work on the profiles, I would recommend to start out without them in order to get a grip of the controls. It's a bit much at first, but it's not as complicated as it seem

yes I definitely like FBX's profiles, I've been doing sort of mix-and-match between my own custom settings and using some of his as a base to see what I want out of the image. Side question, are the smart 1x/2x settings just zoom defaults? or do they change the scaling in any meaningful way? (outside of the auto scaler setting?)


Another somewhat more puzzling question, does the FrameMeister output a nonstandard voltage from its HDMI port? I was using it with the DVI input of my Asus monitor, that was working fine for a little bit. But somewhere along my testing things changed and the DVI port on that monitor is completely dead now (can't Process any signals at all, HDMI port and Vga Port are still working fine) I've read a few other reports online of different people saying that the FrameMeister might've killed DVI/HDMI ports. (Especially after adjusting the deep color settings). Might be completely unrelated but I'm thinking that any further use of my FrameMeister I'll probably have it hooked into an HDMI switch box of some type instead of directly connected to any inputs.

Before this all happened the FrameMeister was also acting funny in that it wouldn't display a picture unless I had an S-video cable connected to it (regardless of whatever input or output settings I was using). Even after resetting the unit multiple times it wouldn't stop this behavior. If I left the S-video cable unplugged (or removed it during operation) the unit would shut down and not display anything. Very strange (I'm using the latest English firmware).

[FBX]

Side question, are the smart 1x/2x settings just zoom defaults? or do they change the scaling in any meaningful way? (outside of the auto scaler setting?)

They set the vertical size to an integer of the source signal image, whereas horizontal seems weirdly stretched. One of my older techniques for dialing in vertical integer scaling was to take pieces of tape and mark the top and bottom of the image on my screen while SMART_2X was active, and then I'd go into the Zoom menu and try to match those same marks (switching to Visual_Set options to fine-tune as needed). Now though, I just use the scanline feature to dial in perfect integer, because as you start to get close, the scanlines become more and more uniform. When you nail the exact integer, the scanlines all become perfectly uniform over the entire image. The thing to remember with the scanline function though, is it won't update with Zoom menu changes, so you have to turn scanlines off and then back on again to check your progress.

[GojiFan90]

I'm having an issue while running my N64 to my framemeister to my Samsung plasma via s-video. As soon as I connect the audio, I get a bunch of garbage noise in the video signal. If I remove the audio source, the problem disappears. Is the interference coming from my receiver? Here's a photo of the issue:

Spoiler

[Blair]

Now though, I just use the scanline feature to dial in perfect integer, because as you start to get close, the scanlines become more and more uniform. When you nail the exact integer, the scanlines all become perfectly uniform over the entire image. The thing to remember with the scanline function though, is it won't update with Zoom menu changes, so you have to turn scanlines off and then back on again to check your progress..

thanks, I'll definitely use that tip. going to be trying out the new Game Boy player interface relatively soon. I have an extra GameCube and i'm thinking about just using it as a dedicated GBA player. would only be using it with s-video on the frameMeister. (is tracking down a pal gamecube worth it for getting RGB quality on GBA titles?)

[FBX]

would only be using it with s-video on the frameMeister. (is tracking down a pal gamecube worth it for getting RGB quality on GBA titles?)

From what I heard, it's not really any better than the official component cables. If you do intend to use S-Video, make sure to go into the Video_Set options and enable manual filtering. Then set the manual filter to a value of 18. That's the sharpest setting for S-Video. Use that along with the usual H_Scaler: 5 and V_Scaler: 6 in the Visual_Set options (making sure to turn Auto_Scaler off).

[Kez]

(is tracking down a pal gamecube worth it for getting RGB quality on GBA titles?)

I live in PAL land and have RGB outta my gameboy player, I can't really speak to how S-Video looks as my GC doesn't even support it but it looks just as good as the RGB out of any of my other consoles (SNES, Mega Drive, PS, Saturn). If you can get hold of one for a reasonable price (they are pretty cheap around here obviously) then it is worth it for sure. For a dedicated GB player unit RGB is probably the way to go.

[FBX]

Bob found Gamecube RGB to not be that great according to this page he wrote on it:

http://retrorgb.com/gamecubecompare.html

[Lawfer]

Bob found Gamecube RGB to not be that great according to this page he wrote on it:

http://retrorgb.com/gamecubecompare.html

For the GameCube the best official output is YPbPr with the DOL-001 GameCube and Nintendo Component Cables.

[Guspaz]

Bob found Gamecube RGB to not be that great according to this page he wrote on it:

http://retrorgb.com/gamecubecompare.html

He describes the digital cable as "slightly sharper". That's hardly equivalent to saying the native RGB output is "not that great"... I can barely tell any difference in his side-by-side comparison screenshot.

[Lawfer]

native RGB output

Isn't the GameCube native output YCbCr?

[FBX]

I can barely tell any difference in his side-by-side comparison screenshot.

I noticed it mostly in the color shade detail, and looking at still images probably doesn't show it as well as a live in-person look. But yeah, notice in Mario's cap you can see distinct resolved color shades, whereas the RGB version seems to be smeared. It could be that some people might prefer that look, but I prefer sharper resolution myself.

[Kez]

Bob found Gamecube RGB to not be that great according to this page he wrote on it

Compared to the component cable maybe, but I think it is likely to be a decent step up from S-Video. I doubt the difference between 240p RGB and 240p component on a dedicated gameboy player machine would justify the extra expenditure on the component cable.

[AndysSeveredHead]

Yeah, the Framemeister is a much better sell if you are trying to play 16-bit era games (or purely 480i games like a lot of the PS2 library). It might be worth considering the OSSC if you do decide to sell, it should perform a lot better with the 480i/240p switching (though results may vary depending on your TV).

Update on this: I gave it another try with a fresh mind today and actually managed to remove the switching dropout from Chrono Cross, Silent Hill and Mr. Driller G:

• Silent Hill:
  Simply turn off auto sync. I played with the sync level, but couldn't find any difference between the values, so just keep it at the default 9.

• Chrono Cross:
  This is a bit against the purpose of the Framemeister, but: Turn off auto sync and set the output to 1080i. In my case this completely removed the dropouts and also the constant shaking in the menu I had in 1080p (this is probably caused by a PAL system playing an NTSC game though). Admittedly, the menu doesn't look that great then and still shakes a tiny bit every few seconds, but if your goal is to play Chrono Cross on an HDTV without Scart input, that's the way to go.
  I actually noticed that while my HDTV's internal scaler handles both modes really well, it DOES also have a very short hiccup when switching, but not a complete dropout. Never noticed that before.
  On thing worth noting: You shouldn't change the output while you're in the menu (= 480i mode) as it will still screw up the actual game footage.

• Mr. Driller G:
  Same as with Chrono Cross. Setting the output to 1080i removes the shaking effect and results in a lesser image quality, but you can still play the game very well. Also don't change the output while in 480i mode.

I'll probably use direct RGB to HDTV for those games for now, but it's great to know there's a workaround

What I didn't notice before was that I had the Saturn profiles set to 1080i for some reason, probably did that during my initial Saturn setup. Judging from CC's behaviour this might be the reason why I didn't have any issues with resolution switching on the Saturn.

The language switching is strange. It sounds like maybe the firmware is updating again somehow? It might be worth deleting the firmware files from the SD card to see if that stops it, if that doesn't work redownload the firmware and try updating it again.

Still haven't figure out what's causing this, though. I tested it a few more times and it's basically this:
- Turn on, language is japanese.
- Switch to english.
- Turn off & on again, language is english.
- Turn off & on again, language is japanese again.

There are no firmware files left on the SD card. It's really weird. I'll try reinstall it later.

Strange that works for you, turning off auto sync: I've tried the same steps, and still get about 5 second dropouts in Silent Hill. Are there other steps, or is this a quirk inherent to specific TV's, or maybe even PAL systems (I'm outputting 1080p NTSC)?

[Lawfer]

Bob found Gamecube RGB to not be that great according to this page he wrote on it

Compared to the component cable maybe, but I think it is likely to be a decent step up from S-Video.

Well duh! In terms of official outputs, RGB Scart would be second after YPbPr Component.

On terms of unofficial, the best would be YCbCr HDMI.

[Kez]

Well duh! In terms of official outputs, RGB Scart would be second after YPbPr Component.

On terms of unofficial, the best would be YCbCr HDMI.

Blair was asking whether getting a PAL GC for RGB instead of using S-Video would be worth it for a dedicated Gameboy Player. It seems like component isn't an option in this case so I'm saying yes, it probably is worth getting a PAL GC.

[GraphicNoise]

Strange that works for you, turning off auto sync: I've tried the same steps, and still get about 5 second dropouts in Silent Hill. Are there other steps, or is this a quirk inherent to specific TV's, or maybe even PAL systems (I'm outputting 1080p NTSC)?

Ah, that's so weird. Maybe it's really a TV-specific quirk. My dropouts in Silent Hill weren't that long to begin with. It's a PAL system though, running the NTSC
(US) version of Silent Hill in 60Hz 1080p, so that could also be a factor. I need to reconfirm, but I think the solution also worked in 60Hz 720p.

Have you tried 1080i instead?

Do you maybe have Chrono Cross available and can test if and how good the solution above works in your setup? Would be interesting to know.

[AndysSeveredHead]

Strange that works for you, turning off auto sync: I've tried the same steps, and still get about 5 second dropouts in Silent Hill. Are there other steps, or is this a quirk inherent to specific TV's, or maybe even PAL systems (I'm outputting 1080p NTSC)?

Ah, that's so weird. Maybe it's really a TV-specific quirk. My dropouts in Silent Hill weren't that long to begin with. It's a PAL system though, running the NTSC
(US) version of Silent Hill in 60Hz 1080p, so that could also be a factor. I need to reconfirm, but I think the solution also worked in 60Hz 720p.

Have you tried 1080i instead?

Do you maybe have Chrono Cross available and can test if and how good the solution above works in your setup? Would be interesting to know.

I do not. Silent Hill is the only game I own that has the resolution-switching problem. I'll try switching to 1080i for kicks, and get back to you.

[PopetherevXXVIII]

I joined just to ask this one question.

How do I get the N64 to not look like either Vasoline or fecal matter was smeared on my screen?
I'm using a slightly modified Firebrand 5x Profile, with an Unmodded N64 going though S-video.
I'm thinking maybe it's not my settings and the N64 graphics that I see that look crisp are from emulators.
Or maybe there is a setting I just haven't tried yet.

[AndysSeveredHead]

Strange that works for you, turning off auto sync: I've tried the same steps, and still get about 5 second dropouts in Silent Hill. Are there other steps, or is this a quirk inherent to specific TV's, or maybe even PAL systems (I'm outputting 1080p NTSC)?

Ah, that's so weird. Maybe it's really a TV-specific quirk. My dropouts in Silent Hill weren't that long to begin with. It's a PAL system though, running the NTSC
(US) version of Silent Hill in 60Hz 1080p, so that could also be a factor. I need to reconfirm, but I think the solution also worked in 60Hz 720p.

Have you tried 1080i instead?

Do you maybe have Chrono Cross available and can test if and how good the solution above works in your setup? Would be interesting to know.

I do not. Silent Hill is the only game I own that has the resolution-switching problem. I'll try switching to 1080i for kicks, and get back to you.

Nope, it didn't work. I'd have gotten an OSSC by now if I didn't think it would be impossible for me to figure out how to output to my TV with sound. So far, Silent Hill, Parappa and Um Jammer Lammy are all my games that are incompatible with LCD TV's. Looks like I'm gonna have to find a nice CRT soon...