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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:28 pm 


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FinalBaton wrote:
BIL you motherfucker... you've done it again :O

Your DD2 talk got me hyped for some Tecnos fun so I got meself an NES copy of Double Dragon(bought it on ebay in a lil bundle with Shadowgate and Street Fighter 2010 for $20 CAD. Not bad, I wanted Shadowgate anyway).

Fired up the game and HOLY CRAP this is fun. I hadn't played that one since I was a kid so I had forgotten how addicting it is. I have DD2 here and I can flat out say : I like the first game even MORE. You move around the screen really quickly which I love, and the enemy variety and AI is a ton of fun. Just lots of subtleties in that last aspect which I didn't expect to see in an NES game.


Glad you're liking it! DD1's brawling is honestly quite underrated, imo. I put it off for absolutely years in favour of DDII, remembering it as mashy and lacking oomph (the scrubby talk quoted here only further convinced me). When I finally gave it a fair shake, I was thoroughly surprised. It's not a masher in the least - there's a small but undeniable finesse to taking down enemies cleanly. If you ignore that, then you're gonna have a sloppy, trade-ridden time. It's a perfect complement to the second game's more intensely technical ethos.

It even does a few things better than DDII; weapons are mortally dangerous, being much more satisfying to confiscate and subsequently murder their wielders with. The skulduggery factor is higher - you can beat the crap out of floored enemies, while their buddies actively try to break up both these and standing grapples. And you get a couple of intense Abobo double-teams, where DDII's strongmen are only fought one by one.

TLDR: fuck the scrubs. :cool:

Have you played SF2010 before? It's one of my most beloved FC action games, though it's got an infamously unfriendly difficulty curve. It's won over me and several other regulars of this thread, sometimes after very rocky introductions. Even if it doesn't click with you immediately, it's the sort of game you might learn to love some years down the road. The trick is to approach it methodically... your character isn't suited to twitch action, but like any quality title, the game is designed around that. Once you realise enemies move as methodically as you do, former chaos starts to click, and tactical improv becomes second nature.

Animated GIF: How 2 Option
Spoiler: show
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__SKYe wrote:
You only lose 1HP for any kind of hit (be it a bat, or a boss or environmental damage), and always deal 2HP per hit to the bosses. There's a few instant death spots apart from falling from a platform to the bottom of the screen/water.

Overall, and while the 2nd loop does get more difficult, it's not much of a difference, and so far I still think the game's pretty easy.


This sounds like you may be playing a hacked ROM - I'm not very experienced with X68K emulation, but according to Squire, they're not hard to encounter. According to SuperDeadite (X68K expert extraordinaire), Akumajou Dracula should be taking 4HP per hit before the first loop is over. It's been many years since I 1-ALLed it, but that sounds accurate - meanwhile the PS1 port's Original Mode uses a similar damage scale, but ramps it up a bit slower (takes like a stage longer to start doing 4HP).

Quote:
I can only assume that this is going to be a Contra-style looping, in that the initial loops are moderately easy, but things pick up after loop 3~4, and also that the extends will stop at some point.


IIRC, both the X68k and PS1 versions eventually start killing you in one hit. :shock: Haven't gone quite that far myself. :wink: I know saucykobold has some high-loop clears on his Youtube channel, seems pretty brutal.
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Last edited by BIL on Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:49 pm 


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BIL wrote:
Glad you're liking it! DD1's brawling is honestly quite underrated, imo. I put it off for absolutely years in favour of DDII, remembering it as mashy and lacking oomph (the scrubby talk quoted here only further convinced me). When I finally gave it a fair shake, I was thoroughly surprised. It's not a masher in the least - there's a small but undeniable finesse to taking down enemies cleanly. If you ignore that, then you're gonna have a sloppy, trade-ridden time. It's a perfect complement to the second game's more intensely technical ethos.

It even does a few things better than DDII; weapons are mortally dangerous, being much more satisfying to confiscate and subsequently murder their wielders with. The skulduggery factor is higher - you can beat the crap out of floored enemies, while their buddies actively try to break up both these and standing grapples. And you get a couple of intense Abobo double-teams, where DDII's strongmen are only fought one by one.

TLDR: fuck the scrubs. :cool:

Have you played SF2010 before? It's one of my most beloved FC action games, though it's got an infamously unfriendly difficulty curve. It's won over me and several other regulars of this thread, sometimes after very rocky introductions. Even if it doesn't click with you immediately, it's the sort of game you might learn to love some years down the road. The trick is to approach it methodically... your character isn't suited to twitch action, but like any quality title, the game is designed around that. Once you realise enemies move as methodically as you do, former chaos starts to click, and tactical improv becomes second nature.

Spoiler: show
Image

Yeah i actually think that DD1 is decently technical. lots of subtlteties that make you want to stay sharp, definitely NOT a button masher. For instance, Williams will jump you, so you can't come at them from doing a good distance on the same plane, or they'll fuck up your plans by jump-kicking you. Also every enemy has an optimal way to dispatch them. so treating every enemy the same way is a mistake. You gotta develop strategies for each enemy type and remember it and execute it well when facing them.

And no I've never played SF2010 before! I remember you posting about it last month saying you liked it. Now I'm really feeling good about my purchase


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:15 pm 


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__SKYe wrote:
The other Castlevania I've played far enough, was the first on the NES, and so far reached Death, but never got past him.


3x holy water, man. I don't throw away my runs but back when I was still playing it if I ended up at stage 5 without at least 2x holy water I was pretty much "welp, guess I'm game overing at Death again."
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:07 pm 


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Even if you have only 1x Holy Water, it's really fast to farm for 2x and 3x with Holy Water due to one throw being able to do multiple hits.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:12 pm 


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BIL wrote:
This sounds like you may be playing a hacked ROM - I'm not very experienced with X68K emulation, but according to Squire, they're not hard to encounter. According to SuperDeadite (X68K expert extraordinaire), Akumajou Dracula should be taking 4HP per hit before the first loop is over. It's been many years since I 1-ALLed it, but that sounds accurate - meanwhile the PS1 port's Original Mode uses a similar damage scale, but ramps it up a bit slower (takes like a stage longer to start doing 4HP).


Apparently yes. Please disregard everything I previously said about the game's difficulty. Everything else appears to be the same, though.
Much like Squire wrote in that post, the only other ROM available has enemies doing 2HP of damage on Stage 1, 3HP on Stage 2 and 4HP in Stage 3 (haven't checked further). I even tested the ones from the TOSEC romset, but they're the same as the ones available everywhere else.

I still have to test/compare with the PSX port, but unless no one ever dumped a legit ROM of this game, this (harder) version does seem to be the proper one, and the PSX Original mode isn't *exactly* like the X68000 original. I guess the difficulty compares a bit more with the arcade Haunted Castle.
Would love for someone to confirm this, but I suppose people who have the X68000 game must be pretty rare.

I should have known, and initially I was really suspicious of a Konami (and Castlevania for that matter) game that was so easy, but since it appeared to be the "proper" release, I thought of it no further, and just assumed that its so famous difficulty would reveal itself on the later loops, since apparently the game does have 6 finite loops.

But what pisses me off the most, is that on most ROM sites, this "easy" version is the one that carries the proper ROM name (ie. with no suffixes denoting alternate, beta, hacks, etc). This is the first time this has ever happened to me, as I am always very picky about choosing the proper, original ROM.

I'll stop with this kind of talk now, so as to not derail the thread, and also not to attract unwanted attention. :lol:

Nevertheless, the game is still fantastic, and even though my clears have been effectively nullified, I still intend to play it through.
Also, many thanks for pointing this out, regardless of difficulty I will still always prefer to play the original game. No hacks for me.

mycophobia wrote:
3x holy water, man. I don't throw away my runs but back when I was still playing it if I ended up at stage 5 without at least 2x holy water I was pretty much "welp, guess I'm game overing at Death again."


Sumez wrote:
Even if you have only 1x Holy Water, it's really fast to farm for 2x and 3x with Holy Water due to one throw being able to do multiple hits.


That stage is always a massive headache, for me, and only seldom do I reach the boss at all.
Can you pick up the Holy Water or the Cross, after having died in that stage, or must you have them before hand? It's been quite a while since I've last played it, and I can't recall, but my major issue was that I could never reach the boss without dying on that stage, and I believe you lose the sub-weapon when you die.
I really need to go back to it. :lol:

FinalBaton wrote:
Yeah i actually think that DD1 is decently technical. lots of subtlteties that make you want to stay sharp, definitely NOT a button masher. For instance, Williams will jump you, so you can't come at them from doing a good distance on the same plane, or they'll fuck up your plans by jump-kicking you. Also every enemy has an optimal way to dispatch them. so treating every enemy the same way is a mistake. You gotta develop strategies for each enemy type and remember it and execute it well when facing them.


Glad you're on the DD train as well. 8)
DD1 is indeed a very nice game, much more so than most people make it out to be.


Last edited by __SKYe on Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:13 pm 


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x3 Cross is a pretty sure win over Death, too. He'll actually escape the corner, unlike the x3HW shutdown, but he'll lose a ton of HP and the crosses will largely shut down his sickles. Much the same applies to Creature/Igor.

Axe (even x1) is also deceptively useful on Death - only way to defuse those lethal overhead sickle spawns, which will otherwise force you to move or be trapped. This is one of my favourite sidescroller boss matchups... totally unpredictable and brutally punishing, yet absolutely methodical. The trick is to respect his summon/move behaviour, and work with it.

Knife is overdoing it a little, but it's entirely viable too if you want maximum stabbing action. :cool: He almost buried me with an overhead near the end, but I feinted it away into the corner and put paid to he bony ass!

__SKYe wrote:
I'll stop with this kind of talk now, so as to not derail the thread, and also not to attract unwanted attention. :lol:


No worries, it's valuable intel! :smile: I just remembered there was a dedicated thread about it with input direct from SuperDeadite himself, see here.

Quote:
Can you pick up the Holy Water or the Cross, after having died in that stage, or must you have them before hand?


Yup! There's a cross near the stairs, at the checkpoint you'll respawn from after dying. You can even go back downstairs and grab it again, if you lose it en route to Death (surprisingly easy to do, with all the Medusas and axes flying around, and the game's random subweapon drops).
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Last edited by BIL on Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:24 pm 


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__SKYe wrote:
That stage is always a massive headache, for me, and only seldom do I reach the boss at all.
Can you pick up the Holy Water or the Cross, after having died in that stage, or must you have them before hand? It's been quite a while since I've last played it, and I can't recall, but my major issue was that I could never reach the boss without dying on that stage, and I believe you lose the sub-weapon when you die.
I really need to go back to it. :lol:


AFAIK you can't get holy water at all in stage 5, so yeah it's pretty much a matter of one-lifing the stage for scrubs like me, lol. As BIL said x3 cross works remarkably well too. Any other weapon and I'm just flailing and cursing.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:28 pm 


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I think there's a Holy Water near the very start of the stage - I seem to recall accidentally grabbing it while fighting off the incoming fleamen and losing my nice x3 Cross, quite a few times.

One thing I know for sure is, there's no way to get Holy Water or Cross past stage 4's midpoint island. This becomes a real issue in the second loop, since its fishmen spawns are utterly bullshit (aimed to kill) and require a carefully memorised route, if you're to survive without keeping the Stopwatch until you're back on dry land. (here's my method - scarier than it looks :o )
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:33 pm 


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The Holy Water seems nigh impossible for me right now, as I would have to trek through the entire stage without dying, so the Cross it is. :oops:

BIL wrote:
No worries, it's valuable intel! :smile: I just remembered there was a dedicated thread about it with input direct from SuperDeadite himself, see here.


Thanks, that settles it. The man himself states that, even on the original/proper game, enemies will be dealing 4HP hits as soon as Stage 3. At least now I know for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:36 pm 


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Yeah, whip-only Death is a master class few can beat without a ton of practice and a good bit of luck, but it's not like you NEED holy water.
In general most people who aren't too comfortable with the game(s) just tend to underestimate the value of subweapons and especially the multi-throw upgrades. Like BIL said, 3x cross is a killing machine, and should make Death pretty manageable.

Death's stage actually isn't too hard. I think it's a really well balanced stage where almost every enemy is predictable and careful movements will always make you safe. The corridor before death has a way worse rumor than it deserves, and it's very easy to go through it without taking any hits as long as you keep the axe armors at bay and anticipate the Medusa movements. IMO the rooms before Dracula are way harder if you let too many fleamen spawn, and I tend to just rush through those, maybe utilizing the stopwatch, or sucking up a hit if I have to.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:46 pm 


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I used to be tempted to hang onto the x3 cross throughout stage 6, reasoning that it was worth chancing a few hits to ensure I'd reach Dracula with it fully loaded and ready to go. Eventually, though, I came to fully endorse grabbing the stopwatch on the bridge. This will not only keep you safe from a worst-case Giant Bat charge, but also nullify the clock tower's eagle+fleaman barrages (provided you know how to haul ass through those sections). With only one wallmeat for the entire stage, and Drac mk1's intense RNG, health is just too valuable to risk. This is not Super KFC IV!

Image

As for Dracula, you get a cross just beforehand, and it's a snap to upgrade it once you know how the game spawns multipliers. Just leave the candles intact, nailing a couple of his fire barrages before breaking them - easy multipliers every time. Ammo will be a little scarce after stopwatch use, but 1) you'll have more than enough, with practice and 2) if you really need to, you can easily head back downstairs to respawn the keep's candles ad infinitum.

(of course you can also HW cheese his second form - just leave the leftmost candle intact until the first form is dead. I prefer the cross though. :cool: )

As for the infamous bridge bat RNG, I've never seen actual, technical confirmation... but I absolutely swear by holding [up-left] from the map screen, and not letting up until you're well under and past the first bat. When I do this, I get to the watch unobstructed every time; it's only if I forget, or hang around to get the axe, that things can really go to hell. The second half of the bridge can be random, but I've got the Stopwatch in case things get out of hand. I notice speedrunners don't worry at all about bad pre-stopwatch bridge RNG, so I'm guessing it is indeed a set-in-stone thing.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:29 pm 


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Re:Death, can confirm that there's a holy water at the start of stage 5.

Honestly, it's easier to no-miss stage 5 and shut down Death than it is to bumble through stage 5 and kill Death with crosses. That said, I've never been good at dealing with him with crosses; I've always found even the axe to be easier.

On Dracula, I always grab the HW as soon as I enter the room, whip-only the first form, and HW cheese the second form. I don't find crosses to be really helpful against the first form, and grabbing the HW early prevents losing it to accidental candle-hit mishaps.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:35 pm 


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Death with the crossx3 is a shitload of fun :)

And yes like BIL, I go with the stopwatch for the last stage. everytime.


Also BIL I am down for trying the #knifechallenge against creature+fleaman *cracks knuckles*


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:36 pm 


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Obscura wrote:
That said, I've never been good at dealing with him with crosses; I've always found even the axe to be easier.


The trick to Death vs Cross is to keep them flying, preferably in both directions and at multiple heights. With a nice dragnet going, sickles will have a hard time reaching you, and Death himself will likely catch plenty of flak too. When a clear opportunity presents itself you can hammer him, but even playing totally defensively you'll do significant damage. I like to prolong things a bit, but here's an example where I aggressively shut down and destroy him at first chance (surviving the loop 2 catacombs = total war, muhfucka!)

Note the third cross in that opening volley was thrown from standing height. Variety is good, but the real reason I did that was the risk of getting insta-swatted by an incoming sickle. You need to be on guard whenever he's summoning and fresh sickles are inbound.

It's a pretty cool matchup. Your projectiles are faster and more numerous, but his can target you from any angle; you still need to watch out for a sickle spawning directly above or below you. I'd love it if he actively moved in to strike with his scythe, instead of randomly hovering from place to place while doing incidental contact damage, but there's still a great sense of duelling projectile summoners here.

FinalBaton wrote:
Also BIL I am down for trying the #knifechallenge against creature+fleaman *cracks knuckles*


Another superb matchup! Remember - you can't match Igor's agility, but you can slap the shit out of him and hustle past while he's stunned. :cool:
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:31 pm 


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Gonna do a lil' self promotion here. Here's my Death fight with the crossX3 subweapon

https://youtu.be/ET5mINgvDZs?t=21m48s

It turned out pretty alright. Not my best shot(I've done a no-hit before. but this is my best recorded fight :P ) but it did happen as part of a successful no-death run, which gives it more value I think


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:53 pm 


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Very stylish start. :cool: I like how you held the center ledge the whole fight too. :smile: From memory, I tend to start off in the middle-center, then fall back to the lower-left corner... this and Creature would both make for great "Averaging Gradius"-style overlay comparison vids.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:06 pm 


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Oh yah. I love to hug the center ledge. I believe it is a POWER MOVE that shows him that "I am not afraid of you skinny fuck" 8) It's an "occupy the most coveted spot/mark your territory" thing :lol:

And yes I always perform that elegant little start, hehe. I think it displays both supreme confidence AND agility


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:12 am 


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I had to do creature/fleaman vs. knives way too many times before, either due to a stupid death in the final room or the boss (yeah you can screw up HW cheese if you haven't played the game for a while and forgot the setup), or the classic fleaman dropping an axe in the room before.
Beating Creature using knives is not as hard as it first seems once you get it down, and I think it's a tool any experienced Castlevania player should have in his arsenal for "worst" case scenarios.

BIL wrote:
I notice speedrunners don't worry at all about bad pre-stopwatch bridge RNG, so I'm guessing it is indeed a set-in-stone thing.

This is the first time I hear about it, but it makes perfect sense. If the game switches states when loading a new stage, it completely makes sense to seed the RNG as the first thing when the stage loads, and just increment it once for every frame.

This is very common in a lot of old 8/16-bit games where holding one direction from the start of the stage will always result in exactly the same RNG until you do something that's at least one frame off. RNG manipulation gets a lot more problematic when the RNG just counts every frame from the console's power on.

Obscura wrote:
On Dracula, I always grab the HW as soon as I enter the room, whip-only the first form, and HW cheese the second form. I don't find crosses to be really helpful against the first form, and grabbing the HW early prevents losing it to accidental candle-hit mishaps.

You can also easily farm double HW from Dracula's fireballs.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:38 am 


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Yeah, on the third(?) stage I always just hold right from the map screen too, not that the start of that stage is especially hard without it, but it does avoid any potential bad bat / mermen rng.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:05 am 


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Alright, finally got the clear in Castlevania 1 (FDS, v1.2. I enjoy the name enter screen :lol: ).

Managed to reach Death with the Holy Water, and beat Dracula with it too.
Much like Sumez said, Death's stage isn't too hard, though it is pretty easy to mess up and lose a big chunk of life (even at the start, with all the fleamen). Reached the very last corridor (with the axe armours and Medusa Heads) without taking a single hit, but screwed up big time and took 3 hits there (I had never reached this section with the HW before, so I kinda screw up a bit, but it does make it quite a bit easier, since you can stun & kill the armours fast, without having to chase them down). Reached Death with 4HP and 1xHW, but beat it flawlessly, you don't even need 2x or 3x HW, since you can just jump and throw one at him over and over.

On the last stage, lost a life almost immediately on the giant bats, and another right after, until I realized it is better to just run past them without bothering trying to defeat them all.
Also lost a few more lives on the fleamans section right after. Those bloody things even go through the damn walls, and they are really annoying when they pile up.
Reached Dracula, and lost some 10 lives against his first form, until I found out that the best tactic was to wait for him to open the cape and jump attack him, as you also jump over his projectiles. I lost quite a few times before, because I had been playing Akumajou Dracula (X68000), and jump attacking him as he was forming (that is, as he became vulnerable), thus attracting his fireballs while in the air, and then crouch worked very well, but I found it harder to do it in the FC game, so I was lost for a while.
After that, I only ever took the occasional hit due to him spawning on top of me (pretty rare on the latest tries).

Lost some 3 times against his 2nd form, one coming pretty close to beating him.
I hadn't picked up the HW here, because I thought it would be pretty useless since you must hit him in the head to damage him, but I completely forgot about the stun time, so in the last attempt I had 1xHW, and beat him rather nicely.
I almost screwed up, since I hit him one last time, thought he was dead and released the controller, but he still had 1HP left, and he hit me once. I quickly picked it back up and whip him one last time. :oops:

Since my previous AD(X68K) clear wasn't valid after all, this effectively is my first classic Castlevania clear, and I'm quite happy about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:27 am 


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Congrats. The first Castlevania is by all means still an absolutely great game.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:08 am 


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Sumez wrote:
Congrats. The first Castlevania is by all means still an absolutely great game.


Thanks, it really is a great game.
Perhaps the thing I find the most satisfying about clearing hard games like these (or generally acknowledged as harder than the average game) is that moment when you go from rushing through a particular level/section/boss, where you're just going through it as fast as you can, hoping you'll make it, to really develop a system for each of these obstacles.
I've gone through a similar thing with Ninja Gaiden, and I find it really satisfying, personally, like you've took the step from just playing the game to mastering it (or on route to mastering, and not just playing with reckless abandon).

In CV, for example, I used to rush through the underground caves (with the bats & mermans) as fast as I could, ignoring candles and everything else, and even when I made it through that section, I still always had the feeling that I wouldn't be able to replicate it.
Other such moments are things like beating a boss with an actual strategy, instead of just attacking away hoping they die before you, or even simple things like timing your whippings right against Boneheads, so that you can destroy their fireballs at the same time you damage them (and likewise against those bose dragons/serpents).

I always thought of it as that moment when you stop fearing the game, and instead you learn to play the game instead of the game playing you. :lol:
I find this especially important since, although I've cleared quite a number of games, only very few of those clears are classic, hard games, so it's not something I have experienced very often, since the easier games don't really have this sort of tension.

Incidentally, would you recommend Castlevania 2?
I know of it and its gameplay, but I was always mildly careful to not watch/read any spoilers (major ones, at least), so as to have a fresh experience if I did decide to play it, but I'm not sure if it is a game worth playing.
Most importantly, I know you have to some esoteric stuff to progress in the game, but is it something you can learn/do simply by playing the game and reading the manual? Or do you really require a guide of sorts?
This is a major point for me, as I don't enjoy reading guides/FAQs, so if they really are necessary, I think I'll skip it and go straight to the 3rd game.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:38 am 


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I personally like CV2,but there's a sizeable amount of cryptic bullshit, as well as NPC dialog that lost any semblant of sense in translation (and even some that misguide you!)

Us veterans have learn the quirks(and cursed. lol) but for a newcomer I say absolutely go with the Castlevania 2 : Redaction rom. It fixes the dialogue and also reduces the day/night screen time.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:43 am 


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I beat Castlevania 2 back in the days without a guide. Looking at some of the things people have problems with, though, I'm really not sure how I did it. Because it's really esoteric. Or at least one thing is. I think the rest of the game just requires a bit of exploration and trying out things.

I can't really recommend CV2 to anyone based on the qualities of the first Castlevania, though. Almost the entirety of the rest of the series would be a better recommendation. Castlevania 3 would be the most obvious one, as it's mostly a rehash of the first game, but longer and with a lot of new stuff added for better or worse (but mostly better).

CV2 is in no way as bad as the reputation it's been gaining since that AVGN video came around, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:45 am 


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CV3 is better, no doubt. but it's also a different kinda game then 2


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:07 am 


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More importantly though, CV2 is a different kind of game than CV1.... unlike CV3. ;)

I recognise everything SKYe said is great about CV1, and agree with it. And honestly CV2 has almost none of that. Conversely CV3 has all of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:46 am 


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He's got to play 3 for sure. Required play even. He's sure to love it too if he loves 1.

Speakingof that I have been musing over which I like better between 1 and 3.
A very tough call but I think I go with 1.
The game's lenght is just perfect for me and the level design is so consistently good.

But they had to change things up for 3 and I fully understand that.
And I'm glad they did.
The various routes and character playthrough are great fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:18 am 


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Sumez wrote:
I beat Castlevania 2 back in the days without a guide. Looking at some of the things people have problems with, though, I'm really not sure how I did it. Because it's really esoteric. Or at least one thing is. I think the rest of the game just requires a bit of exploration and trying out things.


That's what I wanted to hear. I know it is not the same as CV1 or 3, and I always thought of it as a separate game (from the series) altogether, but I decided that I should at least give it a proper try, and I'm actually enjoying it so far.

The game is pretty vague (or with no description whatsoever of what things do) in general, and the manual is almost equally useless.
For example, the very first old man that says that you should buy the White Crystal, but never tells why or what it does, and I found out its use by accident (shows blue platform(s) at the mansion(s)).
The stake is similar, but its use can be discerned without much trouble, simply due to the seller's location (in the 1st mansion) and the fact that you can't collect the Dracula's remain by touching or whipping the ball.
The Holy Water's use actually comes written in the manual (one of the few points where it is actually useful), but I thought it was a 1 use only at first.

The one thing that is really bothersome, and in my opinion brings the whole experience down, is the huge night time.
I understand, and am not bothered much by the increased enemies' HP, but it is a major pain in the ass when you want to go to town (either to heal, buy stuff or talk with someone) and you have to wait for the night to end.
Perhaps it is a nice concept on paper, but it's not too good when executed.

As for the controls/mechanics, Simon plays very much like in CV1, which is pretty nice, and you even get a shield (using Dracula's rib), so I've nothing but praise in that regard.

I also think that the game's world is pretty nicely thought out (so far, at least), as in, although you have freedom to go anywhere, you'll immediatelly know you're in a place you're not supposed to be, when enemies beat you up senseless and quickly. :lol:
The fact that you'll stop getting EXP from weaker enemies once you level up is also a nice touch, and prevents from farming it on a safe place (like the zombies in town, at night).

I still have a lot to play, but it's been nice so far.

FinalBaton wrote:
Us veterans have learn the quirks(and cursed. lol) but for a newcomer I say absolutely go with the Castlevania 2 : Redaction rom. It fixes the dialogue and also reduces the day/night screen time.


Thanks for the recommendation, but I'm a "original only" kind of guy, and never really use hacks/patches outside of translations (even when they're for the better).
I like to play games much like a kid back in the day would, with only the game and the manual, which is why I tend to avoid games that rely on FAQs/guides to progress, and I'll only ever read those when I'm really, really stuck in a game.

FinalBaton wrote:
He's got to play 3 for sure. Required play even. He's sure to love it too if he loves 1.


And I most definitely will. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:31 am 


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I'd be willing to overlook the obscure nonsense and pointless RPG elements in Castlevania 2 if its level and enemy design were as good as the first game's. Unfortunately it's not even close.

By the way, if you're going for the good ending, time stops inside mansions so do all your grinding indoors.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:43 am 


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I liked CV2, but I was disappointed by the lack of bosses compared to other games in the series.


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