CRTs: 16:9 Wii/GC games in 4:3?

[andykara2003]

I finally installed the VGA card in one of my Loewe Acondas and my decision whether to keep with CRTs for pre-HD 16:9 was made for me as soon as I saw the image. The thing looks phenomenal with Wii - it's even better than the NEC XM/P/V series monitors. The deep blacks, super clean whites, gorgeous colours and the general image quality make it the best image for 480p games I've seen.

The 32" size is perfect for the console as the Wii's graphics look nice and 'tight" in the smaller screen size and therefore not overly pixellated - but sit 4 feet away and I feel just as involved as I would watching a larger screen. The shadow mask gives the graphics that amazing rich, defined textured look that further cleans up the image and for me suits the pre-HD consoles so well.

I don't have experience of all the various 480p scalers out there (I've had a VP50pro) , but compared to any flat panel/scaler solution I've seen it literally looks like you're playing a different console. It's so much cleaner, tighter and more defined - unless someone has an amazing scaler for Wii I haven't seen, I think it'll take some clever tech in a future scaler to match it.

Between the Loewe and Dolphin, I'd still choose the Loewe. The lower resolution is largely mitigated by the shadow mask combined with smaller TV size - and you don't get the too-sharp Dolphin look where edges can expose the low poly look of the games. Plus it's nice playing a game like Metroid prime with no lag knowing that the game's going to run 100% perfectly all the way through without dropping a frame.

All this wasn't so much of a surprise as I was expecting the TV to be very good - the 32" has the reputation of being one of the best consumer sets ever made - but I didn't expect it to beat the NEC XM29 class monitors. I tried taking photos with my iphone but they can't convey it.

Anyway, conclusion - it's times like this I'm glad I'm to be a CRT collector - keep the Loewes and save the cost of a new Dolphin PC.

[Lawfer]

The GC is very much a 4:3 console to me - what's out there that's worthy and has a 16:9 mode?

It is, the GameCube is just taking a native 4:3 picture and stretching it to 16:9, really no point in that and it will instead degrade the quality compared to what you get in 4:3, so play GameCube games on a 4:3 since they are 4:3. The Wii on the other hand has a few games who are "natively" 16:9 see list: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... &p=1233555, so you would be better off playing these on a 16:9 CRT.

So certain Wii games will look like this on a 4:3 CRT (such as the BVM-D20F1):



While they will look like this on a 16:9 CRT (such as the BVM-D24E1):

[andykara2003]

the GameCube is just taking a native 4:3 picture and stretching it to 16:9

This is what the Wii does too for most (I think all?) games - anamorphic widescreen.

really no point in that and it will instead degrade the quality compared to what you get in 4:3

There will only be a quality difference if you're using a lower overall pixel density. So for that reason I chose the 32" screen size of the 16:9 Loewe to closely match the overall scren area of my 4:3 NEC XV29+, which the GC/Wii games look amazing on. The Loewe's overall screen size area is only fractionally larger then the NEC, so no image quality is lost as the pixel density is about the same. Conversley, if you compare 16:9 anamorphic and 4:3 on the *same* sized 16:9 screen, 4:3 will always look better.


If I'm not mistaken - when played on a 16:9 TV, aren't the widescreen-only Wii games actually still outputting at the same resolution as other Wii games, just in a different format?

Edit - looking at the thread there was a lot of confusion there. If I'm not mistaken Fudoh is right - the Wii outputs the standard anamorphic widescreen resolution and it's as simple as that.

[Lawfer]

the GameCube is just taking a native 4:3 picture and stretching it to 16:9

This is what the Wii does too for most games - anamorphic widescreen.

That's apple and oranges, GameCube games are not widescreen, the native aspact ratio is 4:3 wether they have a widescreen support or not, take for example Pikmin which does have widecsreen support in GameCube, this is what it really looks like:



4:3 games are best played on 4:3 screens.

If I'm not mistaken - when played on a 16:9 TV, aren't the widescreen-only Wii games actually still outputting at the same resolution as other Wii games

The resolution doesn't change, but a widescreen screen for a widescreen-only game will always be more suited than a non-widescreen one.

You can always play widescreen-only games on a 4:3 CRT, but the vieweing area will be smaller due to the constraints of playing a widescreen game on a 4:3 screen, but unlike with playing 4:3 games in widescreen, this won't degrade the quality of the picture since it won't be stretching it to fit the aspect ratio.

[andykara2003]

That's apple and oranges, GameCube games are not widescreen

I was talking about the resolution of Gamecube games with a 16:9 option like F-zeroGX - If I'm not mistaken, F-zero in 16:9 is doing *exactly* the same thing as Wii games do - anamorphic widescreen - so there really is no difference in that scenario.

But yes I can appreciate your preference for not using 16:9 in GC games with 16:9 support. I tried F-zero in 16:9 and it looked very nice but I'd usually want to play in 4:3 as the game was primarily designed for that.

The resolution doesn't change, but a widescreen screen for a widescreen-only game will always be more suited than a non-widescreen one.

You can always play widescreen-only games on a 4:3 CRT, but the vieweing area will be smaller due to the constraints of playing a widescreen game on a 4:3 screen, but unlike with playing 4:3 games in widescreen, this won't degrade the quality of the picture since it won't be stretching it to fit the aspect ratio.

Of course.

[Ikaruga11]

The GameCube and Wii both render the exact same resolutions and anamorphic widescreen behaves exactly the same on both. It's just that not nearly as many GameCube titles supported anamorphic widescreen as Wii titles did.

My argument is whether or not it's worth changing your display's aspect ratio back and fourth between 4:3 and 16:9 for the limited number of 16:9 games that the GameCube supports. It's mostly a matter of convenience and laziness, I suppose.

[Xer Xian]

Anyway, conclusion - it's times like this I'm glad I'm to be a CRT collector

They certainly beat the times when you have to pick them up and carry along by a large margin!

So testing out the thing was enough for you to make up your mind? Well it must have been an awesome sight ^_^

[andykara2003]

Nice one, it is so heavy and bulky so not for everyone but worth it to me :)

The way the CRT resolves the image for Wii and GC in particular is so good - I think CRTs just suit the rougher output of the Nintendo consoles particularly well. All the rough aspects of the image get ironed out by the shadow mask. I was messaging Fudoh about this - he can get a really great image out of a PS2 on a flat panel and I think the dreamcast can look very good too, but he agreed re. the Wii/GC image. He mentioned that for that we'll have to wait for 4K scalers with CRT emulation. From what I hear we'll need an 8K panel for 480p emulation so it'll be a while.

For now, though, it's almost bizarre seeing the 16:9 image from Wii look so good after years of looking at a mess on flat panels. It's like the jump of going from SD to HD..

[Xer Xian]

Yeah, it does make sense. It's kinda like the matter of euphony vs. accuracy in the audiophile realm (loose analogy ^^).

[andykara2003]

I've had a lot of good advice from him - I was looking to find a device to add subtle sharpening to the Wii/GC image on a CRT to add a touch more definition, but mild enough not to introducing ringing. I found all the sharpening functions on even high end CRT TVs to be way too harsh, even at the lower settings. He suggested a DVDO VP50 pro for it's fine edge and detail enhancement or alternatively the Extron 201/2/3Rxi units (if used with care).

I bought a VP50pro but didn't like what it did to the colours and the sharpening effect didn't look as clean and natural as I'd hoped. So I sold it and bought a couple of the much cheaper and easier to find Extron units - and when used carefully, they were exactly what I was looking for. If you set them just right you can add that touch of definition without the least bit of perceptible ringing. The combination of that and the sympathetic CRT shadow mask is giving me the image I have now - the result of lots of research & testing. I'm more than ready to give up CRT and general tech hunting for good now and just enjoy the games - the technical stuff can take over!

[Blair]

That looks pretty nice! A touch soft but you've got rid of a lot of what makes the image so rough - do you purposely soften the image a little to help with that? I've read that the HD3000 is great for 480p upscaling - what does the OSSC do in this setup and what's the overall added latency?

Those pics look super good Blair!

They really do! Apologies, I wasn't meaning to be critical, It's the best I've seen on an HDTV - I wish I could see it in person.

Thanks guys!

Yeah, I definitely think the HD3000 is light years ahead of most standalone 1080p scaling solutions. The image probably looks a bit softer than normal. But I actually tune the video enhancement settings per-game. for a game like a Mario Malaxy I like things a touch softer, but for a game like F-Zero GX I'll go in the opposite direction. (Thank goodness this processor has an easy-to-use "profiles" feature)

the OSSC adds world-class digitization and color space conversion, and of course a few postprocessing effects. The added latency for a full progressive path (on the HD3000) is just a bit under a frame (around 8ms) compared to the next fastest processor the DVDO's at 6ms. both are blazing fast compared to a frameMeister. (OSSC adds no input lag)

I'll never go back to sup-par progressive processing ever again. completely breathed new life into my original Xbox and Dreamcast collection as well. (it's also my main processor for 720p systems like Xbox 360, PlayStation 3 and WiiU)

The GameCube has far less widescreen games than the Wii does, number-wise and percentage-wise. In fact, hardly any Nintendo IP games support 16:9 on the GameCube. The only ones that do are F-Zero GX, Star Fox Adventures, Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem and Super Mario Strikers.

Last time I checked almost every single title on the GameCube can be forced into 480p/16:9 with swiss. From all accounts it seems to look fantastic (although 2-D hud elements might look weird, but there might be patches for that now)

I finally installed the VGA card in one of my Loewe Acondas and my decision whether to keep with CRTs for pre-HD 16:9 was made for me as soon as I saw the image. The thing looks phenomenal with Wii - it's even better than the NEC XM/P/V series monitors. The deep blacks, super clean whites, gorgeous colours and the general image quality make it the best image for 480p games I've seen.

excellent andykara2003! I'm glad it worked out for you. cheers to many years of happy CRT gaming! one question though, why is the VGA card necessary for the Wii? are you using a third-party Wii VGA cable?

[FinalBaton]

Well that's interesting andy.

Now I've gotta refrain from picking up a huge Sony 16:9 SuperFinePitch CRT >_< girlfriend is gonna kill me if I bring another YUGE crt home. lol

I don't play Wii or Gamecube games though, only 480i/p consoles with some widescreen supportt that I have are PS2 and Dreamcast and those look nice on an HDTV. And in 4:3 they look amazing on the NEC XM37 Plus. So I guess I don't really have a pressing need for a 16:9 crt.

[FinalBaton]

Also, I'm sorry but you're gonna have to provide pics of Wii and Gamecube games running on the Loewe

[andykara2003]

Last time I checked almost every single title on the GameCube can be forced into 480p/16:9 with swiss. From all accounts it seems to look fantastic (although 2-D hud elements might look weird, but there might be patches for that now)

I forgot about that! I might have to give it a go.

one question though, why is the VGA card necessary for the Wii? are you using a third-party Wii VGA cable?

All my 31Khz TVs/monitors including the Loewe just happen to only accept 31Khz via VGA. I use a Crescendo Rtc2200 transcoder to convert the Wii/GC's component to VGA which goes to the TV via the Extron.

Also, I'm sorry but you're gonna have to provide pics of Wii and Gamecube games running on the Loewe :mrgreen:

I really wish I could get good photos! I took loads with the iPhone but the results were hopeless in conveying what I'm seeing. My wife has a cheap SLR - maybe I'll get more luck with that.


EDIT: Sorry I really tried with the SLR but the photos all turned out pretty rough in comparison with what I'm seeing on the screen.