GamerGate - and it's continuing aftermath.

[Squire Grooktook]

Cyber VAWG...the greatest weapon of our time...

[BryanM]

"It's about ethics in gaming journalism" crowd.

I'm still loling over how dumb this very idea was. There was never any ethics in any sort of journalism - it's about hawking a product whether it's a vidya game or starting the Iraq War. That's what a profit motive does, people.

If you want journalism, you have to remove the profit incentive. For games, it's trivially easy to read end user reviews and watch a yootoob video. That's a lot easier than understanding the precise power structure and motivations behind North Korea, by many orders of magnitude.

And there are lots of people with severe behavioural disorders; under normal circumstances ignoring them works fine.

Somehow I'm more outraged Glen McCoy makes a living getting his racist political cartoons nationally syndicated, or DeRay Mckesson makes a living hawking VISA cards and Quizno subs exploiting the deaths of others.

A girl making a living from suggesting maybe there should be slightly fewer titties in vidya games and that she shouldn't have to get death threats for it probably.... just doesn't reach the cutoff threshold.

For fuck's sake, these game magazines were plastered with ads from the beginning, and there was some light grumbling with occasional outbursts of mockery ala the Kane and Lynch fiasco. But someone gets sex instead of money for favorable treatment, and suddenly there's a forest fire.

Newsflash: Money is used to buy sex, directly and indirectly. What's-her-face's vagina is not worth $800,000. Sense of scale.

[Zen]

Online is its own thing, BulletMagnet. You know that.

#notruescotsman

Not at all.
Some people say stupid shit online. Thats all. It most certainly is not limited to online gaming. Is there real malice and meaning behind it? Nah, its more mischief than malice.

My own experience of online gaming over the years, has been very similar to Bananamatic's above.
Serious gamers have been some of the most polite people I have met in real life and online.

[Zen]

A girl making a living from suggesting maybe there should be slightly fewer titties in vidya games and that she shouldn't have to get death threats for it probably.... just doesn't reach the cutoff threshold.

If that is all it was, no shits would have been given.

For fuck's sake, these game magazines were plastered with ads from the beginning, and there was some light grumbling with occasional outbursts of mockery ala the Kane and Lynch fiasco. But someone gets sex instead of money for favorable treatment, and suddenly there's a forest fire.

It was always know.
There were times where things would come to a head and then be pushed back under the carpet.

Then, the internet.
Information was shared and documented. Certain patterns emerged much more clearly. One of which was "if the corrupt individual was female", up went a roar of "circle the wagons".
Remember the Rab Florence - Lauren Wainwright disgrace? We all knew right then what was going down.
Lauren Wainwright was the real Zoe Quinn. Nobody gave a fuck about Quinn. We knew about some of the other "actors" in the circles she moved in, sure.

Then something odd happened.
As gamers discussed the latest in "games journalism", and some shit about burgers and fries, . . . . fuck me, here came the rumbling of an enormous Wagon train! Mass bannings, thread deletions, absolute chaos . . . and all in real-time.
Why? Well, Sly Cherry Chunks knows the score;

So when it turned out that a minor ethics in gaming journalism scandal involved a woman at the center it makes perfect sense for the outrage police to wade in. And then the backlash, the attempts at deleting everything and the gamers are dead misrepresentation of everything that happened blah blah blah.

There you have it. The events perfectly summed up in two sentences.

That is when gamers entered the culture war and laid fucking waste to all before them

I can appreciate your point on perspective, BryanM but this was big.
As games had become the largest entertainment industry and gamers were showing themselves to be intelligent and more importantly, influential via youtube etc., Gamers were assigned for "re-education".
It was never about tits, asses, misogyny, and racism for those attacking us. It was all about control.

They lost.

[FinalBaton]

If that is all it was, no shits would have been given.

trve

[Bananamatic]

But someone gets sex instead of money for favorable treatment, and suddenly there's a forest fire.

feels more like that was the last straw, not the big thing
what really first pissed me off was the DmC reboot several years before gamergate (and even before anita IIRC) - game sucked ass, nothing like the previous titles, shit music, shit bosses, restrictive combat, 3edgy5me story, yet the articles were full of "entitled fans cry about Dante's hair and send death threats, change is good, grow up"

you can't shit on your audience and expect them to not shit back on you at some point
just look at the Jed Whitaker dude who was fired from Destructoid a week or two ago (thank god there are at least some decent sites) for calling an anime titty game "dynasty warriors for pedophiles" and then having a meltdown on twitter including blaming it on gamergate as usual

it's not about ethics, it's more that the journos were actively asking for an internet shitfight and ethics was the perfect excuse
and I still don't know how the hell is anything of this related to women

[Mischief Maker]

For games, it's trivially easy to read end user reviews and watch a yootoob video.

Except that's exactly what failed in the case of Yooka-Laylee. Youtubers gave misleading videos where they intentionally played like shit to give a false impression of bad controls while Steam reviews were spammed by thumbs down with just "jontron" in the text.

I am sure no shmup enthusiast on this forum would advocate or condone reviewer dishonesty. I certainly do not and my post did not suggest otherwise.
If people are reviewing Yooka-Laylee dishonestly, that is simply bad form.
No excuses.

Bad form, or better put, "unethical."

You said earlier that SJWs were inextricably intertwined with unethical behavior. Well if that were true you have nothing to lose by making the end goal "ethics" instead of "defeat the SJW agenda" and everything to gain because you maintain the moral high ground. In the case of Yooka-Laylee, the moral high ground was squandered by #gg because they were so hell-bent on defeating SJWs they were willing to use unethical tactics and dishonestly piled on Yooka-Laylee to an extent I've not witnessed since God Hand.

[Bananamatic]

did any actual big reviews do that or was it just the usual metacritic fanboy spam?

[FinalBaton]

feels more like that was the last straw, not the big thing
what really first pissed me off was the DmC reboot several years before gamergate (and even before anita IIRC) - game sucked ass, nothing like the previous titles, shit music, shit bosses, restrictive combat, 3edgy5me story, yet the articles were full of "entitled fans cry about Dante's hair and send death threats, change is good, grow up"

you can't shit on your audience and expect them to not shit back on you at some point
just look at the Jed Whitaker dude who was fired from Destructoid a week or two ago (thank god there are at least some decent sites) for calling an anime titty game "dynasty warriors for pedophiles" and then having a meltdown on twitter including blaming it on gamergate as usual

it's not about ethics, it's more that the journos were actively asking for an internet shitfight and ethics was the perfect excuse
and I still don't know how the hell is anything of this related to women

That was a really solid post

[Blinge]

A girl making a living from suggesting maybe there should be slightly fewer titties in vidya games and that she shouldn't have to get death threats for it probably.... just doesn't reach the cutoff threshold.

If that is all it was, no shits would have been given.

Wrong.

You can't begin to make a well reasoned, even neutral point about the portrayal of women in games these days without the gleeful refrain of "i'll rape you you feminazi cunt" coming your way.

That is when gamers entered the culture war and laid fucking waste to all before them

As games had become the largest entertainment industry and gamers were showing themselves to be intelligent and more importantly, influential via youtube etc., Gamers were assigned for "re-education".
It was never about tits, asses, misogyny, and racism for those attacking us. It was all about control.

They lost.

What? How exactly did "they" lose.

This grandstanding is unbearable.
Who in the history of the big bad important real world really gave a shit about gamergate.

[Bananamatic]

You can't begin to make a well reasoned, even neutral point about the portrayal of women in games these days without the gleeful refrain of "i'll rape you you feminazi cunt" coming your way.

will I get called a feminazi for thinking that outfits in games are too revealing?
I want to look like a badass, not like a brazilian hooker

[Mischief Maker]

did any actual big reviews do that or was it just the usual metacritic fanboy spam?

I wasn't talking about the big reviews.

I was talking about the #gg-aligned youtubers who put solidarity with jontron against the SJWs above their viewers.

The guys who were supposed to end the corrupt reign of gaming press.

[Blinge]

will I get called a feminazi for thinking that outfits in games are too revealing?
I want to look like a badass, not like a brazilian hooker

Laura SFV best gurl

[Bananamatic]

Laura SFV best gurl

laura's design actually makes sense, just compare it to eddy from tekken 3
now stuff like half of the garbs in Lightning Returns being straight up stripper outfits bothers me
especially when there isn't a single proper wizard robe

[Zen]

Bad form, or better put, "unethical."

You said earlier that SJWs were inextricably intertwined with unethical behavior. Well if that were true you have nothing to lose by making the end goal "ethics" instead of "defeat the SJW agenda" and everything to gain because you maintain the moral high ground. In the case of Yooka-Laylee, the moral high ground was squandered by #gg because they were so hell-bent on defeating SJWs they were willing to use unethical tactics and dishonestly piled on Yooka-Laylee to an extent I've not witnessed since God Hand.

I can assure you, sir, that between the two, bad form is by far the more grievous.
In all seriousness, I do not know how I can stress the point any further.
I do not condone dishonesty. As far as I am concerned, the ends does not justify the means. A concept foreign in the main, to the SJW.

As for "the moral high ground was squandered by #gg",
By "#gg"? Was there a meeting that I was unaware off? A vote that I missed?
Perhaps I have been barred without my knowledge? Those fucking shitlord pricks, I'm going to call headquarters right now and shout the odds!

Mischief Maker, many different poeple were annoyed at the whole Yooka-Laylee thing for a host of different reasons.
Myself, I was happy RARE "whoever and whatever that might be now", was making a BK type game. Soon as I found out that TEAM17 were publishing though, I was out (turned out, I was on the money).
The JonTron thing was handled very badly. You had his fans going nuts. You had people who knew nothing about him, angry at certain groups who were campaigning for his removal. You had people angry that having a public debate resulted in his removal from the game.
You had kickstarter people incensed at the way TEAM17 treated them (wasn't a surprise to me). You had people confused and angry that the chaps that made CBFG were gone all "the current year".

You get my point. Trying to score a point against GG on the whole Yooka-Laylee thing is as ridiculous as me calling GG headquarters to demand my membership card back.

Other than all that I am in total agreement with you. Fuck all those dishonest reviewers who think that two wrongs make a right. Very poor form.

[BulletMagnet]

Not at all.

- "Gamers don't say or do racist/sexist/etc. things, our culture is uniquely resistant to it."
- "But online gaming has become particularly infamous for those very things."
- "Online gaming isn't REAL gaming."

How is that not a textbook deflection, especially since online gaming is the portion of the medium most explicitly built on interacting with other people?

Some people say stupid shit online. Thats all. It most certainly is not limited to online gaming. Is there real malice and meaning behind it? Nah, its more mischief than malice.

That's quite the impressive wave of the hand...I don't doubt what you say about having met mostly civil gamers over the years - heck, the same goes for me, and explains why I've been at this forum for so darn long - but I find it difficult to believe that you would make a broad-brush statement like this while at the same time assuming that just about everyone who's ever complained about abuse from a "gamer" is either being oversensitive or deliberately exaggerating in hopes of advancing a totalitarian agenda (and here's where I bite my tongue before I attempt to segue back into the politics thread).

[Giest118]

That's quite the impressive wave of the hand...I don't doubt what you say about having met mostly civil gamers over the years - heck, the same goes for me, and explains why I've been at this forum for so darn long - but I find it difficult to believe that you would make a broad-brush statement like this while at the same time assuming that just about everyone who's ever complained about abuse from a "gamer" is either being oversensitive or deliberately exaggerating in hopes of advancing a totalitarian agenda (and here's where I bite my tongue before I attempt to segue back into the politics thread).

The solution to the problem is totalitarianism.

Fear is freedom.

[Zen]

- "Gamers don't say or do racist/sexist/etc. things, our culture is uniquely resistant to it."
- "But online gaming has become particularly infamous for those very things."
- "Online gaming isn't REAL gaming."

How is that not a textbook deflection, especially since online gaming is the portion of the medium most explicitly built on interacting with other people?

Those quotes are not mine of course and I attempt no deflection on any of those points.

That's quite the impressive wave of the hand...

Not at all. In fact twas such a basic, self evident truth, its worth repeating;

Some people say stupid shit online. Thats all. It most certainly is not limited to online gaming. Is there real malice and meaning behind it? Nah, its more mischief than malice.

I find it difficult to believe that you would make a broad-brush statement like this while at the same time assuming that just about everyone who's ever complained about abuse from a "gamer" is either being oversensitive or deliberately exaggerating in hopes of advancing a totalitarian agenda

complained about abuse from a "gamer" . . . . Good god, man. Are you quite serious? What happened after? Did they melt?
As for the rest I, again, seem to have to post this image of miss Sarkeesian and miss Quinn at a U.N, pushing, well . . . . . . "a totalitarian agenda"

(and here's where I bite my tongue before I attempt to segue back into the politics thread).

If I you have something to say, say it. If it is said in good faith its all good. "Sticks and stones" and all that.

[Giest118]

As for the rest I, again, seem to have to post this image of miss Sarkeesian and miss Quinn at a U.N, pushing, well . . . . . . "a totalitarian agenda"

That doesn't count because problems never happen.

[Bananamatic]

abuse from a "gamer"

except basically everyone plays games these days, so as they said, the whole "gamer" label is useless and dead
people tend to be assholes in general, even more so when
1) they are anonymous and online so they can't get punched in the face or called a manlet/fat loser
2) you will probably never meet the people again so there are no consequences
the solution is to find groups of people to play with with the same attitude as you, especially for games full of angry retards like league of legends

some games are fine though like team fortress 2, played that for several thousand hours with randoms and never seen any ridiculous abuse like in LoL, especially on community servers with rules where no one had issues with girls on mic
dark souls on pc seemed to be fine too, I did assholery of the highest degree and only got one russian message that could potentially be hatemail, the rest was either compliments or ending up helping some people I ended up invading multiple times
generally I got way more friend requests than hatemail

the worst games are the ones where you get matched with random people and you're forced to cooperate and mistakes of one person cost the whole team something (overwatch, lol, etc.)
bonus points if it's in ranked mode, 90% of abuse is between teammates, not between teams (and I bet that goes for online gaming abuse as a whole)

tl;dr: it's people in general, not "gamers"

[BulletMagnet]

Those quotes are not mine of course

...seriously. dude? Words are not exactly being put in your mouth here.

In fact twas such a basic, self evident truth

It's only a "self-evident truth" if you've already got a preconceived notion in mind, namely that most of the racist/sexist/etc. stuff said by "gamers" (well, real gamers) is not only not acted upon but has little, if any, malice behind it, in which case I'd love to know 1) How you came to that well-considered conclusion, beyond your aforementioned personal experience, and 2) Where precisely you believe the urge to loudly and repeatedly voice such sentiments from behind a veil of anonymity comes from.

Good god, man. Are you quite serious? What happened after? Did they melt?

...I'm just waiting for the word "snowflake" to make its inevitable and obnoxious appearance, and that's as close to taking up your "sticks and stones" offer as I care to get. In the meantime, is saying "please don't use slurs or threats when speaking to me" really the first step towards the end of free speech as we know it, if you're not a complete asshole?

As for the rest I, again, seem to have to post this image of miss Sarkeesian and miss Quinn at a U.N, pushing, well . . . . . . "a totalitarian agenda"

...you are aware that the UN retracted the adjoining report and has, along with the rest of the world, taken precisely zero action to this end? As I've said myriad times before, the "SJW"s aren't on the cusp of taking over society should we be foolish enough to ignore them for a few minutes; for all the hubbub over the "infantilization" of modern man, few of its loudest "resisters" seem willing to stand back and let folks draw their own conclusions in this area.

[Bananamatic]

here's a solution: bring back community servers
back in the day when servers had a consistent population and you played with mostly the same people daily (and there were admins and rules in place) so you had to be good if you wanted to keep playing somewhere you liked and shitty people were banned immediately (and it was easier to find cool people to play with)

these days everything has only those "competitive" modes that are basically "get matched with 4 randoms and call each other faggots for making you lose the game because you're the best out there and nothing is your fault"
fighting games are a bit different because 1v1 games are easier to run in a community without dedicated servers (pretty much every fighting game has a discord these days?) and you have no one else but yourself to blame for losing unless you're a scrub who complains about cheap stuff

[Rob]

the "SJW"s aren't on the cusp of taking over society

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NCtl0-WTNA

[Zen]

...seriously. dude? Words are not exactly being put in your mouth here.

If those quotes you posted as an example of my "textbook deflection", did not come from me (and they did not) then, yes, words are being put in my mouth.

It's only a "self-evident truth" if you've already got a preconceived notion in mind, namely that most of the racist/sexist/etc. stuff said by "gamers" (well, real gamers) is not only not acted upon but has little, if any, malice behind it, in which case I'd love to know 1) How you came to that well-considered conclusion, beyond your aforementioned personal experience, and 2) Where precisely you believe the urge to loudly and repeatedly voice such sentiments from behind a veil of anonymity comes from.

Answer 1. The complete lack of the said murderous gamer slaughter,rape-fest?
Answer 2. Immaturity and lack of confidence. Unfortunate traits exhibited universally.

...I'm just waiting for the word "snowflake" to make its inevitable and obnoxious appearance, and that's as close to taking up your "sticks and stones" offer as I care to get. In the meantime, is saying "please don't use slurs or threats when speaking to me" really the first step towards the end of free speech as we know it, if you're not a complete asshole?

I do not understand this sentence. How have I used " slurs or threats when speaking" to you? And what do you mean by "if you're not a complete asshole?"
You are taking the "sticks and stones" "offer" way out of context here. After you ended your post with;

(and here's where I bite my tongue before I attempt to segue back into the politics thread).

I said that I was open to whatever you wanted to say, once it was in good faith. You interpret this as a threat?

...you are aware that the UN retracted the adjoining report and has, along with the rest of the world, taken precisely zero action to this end? As I've said myriad times before, the "SJW"s aren't on the cusp of taking over society should we be foolish enough to ignore them for a few minutes; for all the hubbub over the "infantilization" of modern man, few of its loudest "resisters" seem willing to stand back and let folks draw their own conclusions in this area.

You do of course realise that the U.N encourages this mindset to begin with? The U.N retracting the adjoining report is of little solace in light of their unelected, state destroying, cultural genocidal, Orwellian bedlam. How do you think "the girls" ended up being giving a hearing in the first place?
The "SJW"s you mention, do you think that they emerged from a vacuum, all on their own? Ignore "their" agendas at your peril.

[FinalBaton]

"SJW"s aren't on the cusp of taking over society

This is true though, I gotta give you that.

But they still irritate me, and thus I like to make fun of them

[Giest118]

"SJW"s aren't on the cusp of taking over society

A pro waits until a problem is unmanageable before doing anything about it.

[Zen]

the "SJW"s aren't on the cusp of taking over society

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NCtl0-WTNA

As an "the "SJW"s aren't on the cusp of taking over society" bonus, I see that Your "Wild Bill for America" video, though appreciated, contained at top of page, another "YouTube Spotlight" video within that "proud" flag.
Rob, for your sins, I give you one full watch of said video as penance. Go in peace my son.

[BulletMagnet]

If those quotes you posted as an example of my "textbook deflection", did not come from me (and they did not) then, yes, words are being put in my mouth.

You'd make one hell of a politician.

Answer 1. The complete lack of the said murderous gamer slaughter,rape-fest?

Dude, nobody seriously accuses gamers of this, the whole "we're being marginalized and characterized as monsters by allowing anyone else to even discuss gamer culture" is the epitome of mewling self-pity.

Answer 2. Immaturity and lack of confidence. Unfortunate traits exhibited universally.

This is quite a different tune from, and I quote directly this time, "Gamers do not deal in racism, sexism or social status. For us, its always only been about the "game". So are we special, or aren't we?

I do not understand this sentence. How have I used " slurs or threats when speaking" to you?

You're being deliberately obtuse; I'm referring to your overriding notion that when "gamers" - or "people online in general", whichever it happens to be at the moment - liberally pepper their speech with slurs and threats it's - again, directly quoting you - all just "shit talk". Mainly emanates from adolescents "growing up". May be distasteful but its "healthy". More mischief than malice. To some degree I can concur, but I also don't believe that there are no lines whatsoever to be crossed when it comes to how one speaks to another, either in person or remotely, nor that every such instance should automatically be given benefit of the doubt when it comes to the speaker's motives, nor that it's an unreasonable imposition - nor the path to tyranny - to ask that some degree of decorum be upheld in this respect. If someone doesn't want to accept such terms - aka civilized society - fine, there's no law against being an asshole whenever you feel like it (nor should there be), but there's also no law protecting him from the resultant reactions of those who find his conduct distasteful (nor should there be).

You interpret this as a threat?

No, but it's a path I choose not to take any further, since this discussion is on its last legs as it is.

The U.N retracting the adjoining report is of little solace in light of their unelected, state destroying, cultural genocidal, Orwellian bedlam.

...yeah, methinks there's not going to be a whole lot of enlightened exchange here, on either end.

A pro waits until a problem is unmanageable before doing anything about it.

A real pro unloads the nuclear warheads the second he thinks he hears a mosquito buzzing.

[Giest118]

A pro waits until a problem is unmanageable before doing anything about it.

A real pro unloads the nuclear warheads the second he thinks he hears a mosquito buzzing.

Longest second ever lol

[Zen]

Dude, nobody seriously accuses gamers of this, the whole "we're being marginalized and characterized as monsters

You are in error. Various Federal agencies would also strongly disagree with you. They wasted quite a bit of time and money on a Snipe hunt.
The media, both "Game" and mainstream, waged a vicious and biased smear campaign that was also hard to miss.

by allowing anyone else to even discuss gamer culture"

Was never an issue. No one cared. We had all been discussing same for years. It was what you describe and mistakenly deny, in the first part of your sentence, that caused not "mewling self-pity", Bullet Magnet but offence to gamers.

This is quite a different tune from, and I quote directly this time, "Gamers do not deal in racism, sexism or social status. For us, its always only been about the "game".

No, "The song remains the same". While I appreciate the direct quote this time, I must point out that you take it out of context, making it the subject of a transparent Strawman.
My "Gamers do not deal in racism, sexism or social status. For us, its always only been about the "game", is clearly a refutation of the "Gamers are toxic" lie. The, quite different, tune that you now play over it was my response to your question(see below);

Where precisely you believe the urge to loudly and repeatedly voice such sentiments from behind a veil of anonymity comes from.

To which I replied; "Answer 2. Immaturity and lack of confidence. Unfortunate traits exhibited universally."
Wherein, I simply stated that bad behaviour was universal.


Finally;

So are we special, or aren't we?

Having the flaws of every other group of people does not negate the fact that, yes, we are special. The "current year" took us on. They lost. We won.

Game over