Prelude to the Apocalypse

[Zen]

I can think of a few reasons why this lack of capital and affluence exist, and none of them have to do with genetics.

And you would no doubt be right. But to explain it all as a lack of nurture, with no bearing on nature? I think not.

It is also funny that you blind yourself with your line of thought to the point that you can't see sarcasm, nor can you see how BryanM underlines the contradictions in "black people are naturally better at these sports." I remember in a documentary it was pointed out that in the 1920s and 1930s people thought Jews were genetically predisposed to basketball, because all of the basketball stars were Jewish.

BryanM's comment did not read that way to my eyes but perhaps you are correct and I am "blind".
Am I correct in reading this as, you do not accept that certain races are "better" at certain sports? That will be news to athletes concerned about higher natural testosterone levels exhibited by black competitors. How about chess? No pattern there either, huh?

On an unrelated note:

Indeed.

[Mischief Maker]

Okay, Zen. I'll pretend for a moment that you're honestly curious about the power dynamics between Europeans and cultures in other continents and not just pulling a Sam Harris passive-aggressive "What? I'm not saying the thing that I'm heavily implying, I'm just asking questions! Can't I just ask a question?"

The best place to start is to read Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond, which is written for general audiences and gives an overview of the geological conditions and indigenous plant and animal life that accelerated development of agriculture in Eurasia as compared to Africa and the Americas.

Come back once you're done and let me know what you think!

[Rob]

[Zen]

Okay, Zen. I'll pretend for a moment that you're honestly curious about the power dynamics between Europeans and cultures in other continents and not just pulling a Sam Harris passive-aggressive "What? I'm not saying the thing that I'm heavily implying, I'm just asking questions! Can't I just ask a question?"

The best place to start is to read Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond, which is written for general audiences and gives an overview of the geological conditions and indigenous plant and animal life that accelerated development of agriculture in Eurasia as compared to Africa and the Americas.

Come back once you're done and let me know what you think!

I'm sorry that you feel I am disingenuous in debate, my man. I can not give you anything in my defence except to say that I am being as honest as the circumstances will allow.
Many of your posts come across to me as very bias, so I guess that it all might be just a matter of perception.

You are not the first person to recommend Diamond to me. I will be up front and say I suspect that book recommendation is perhaps a fairly "loaded" one.
I gave one of his books a read years ago, cant remember which but I admit I did not finish it because of either what I perceived as his bias or maybe it was my own.

Re. Guns, Germs, and Steel; Geological factors that determine food production/variety/storage. Benefits of access to animals suitable for domestication, also including strengthened immune response from exposure to same. Geographical access to diverse groups with their unique information and perspectives.
Resulting in an a group far more advanced in warfare technology, technical know-how and immune resistance to the germs they brought with them to less advanced (because they did not have all of these advantages) peoples.
Seems like a lot of research to just end up screeching "privilege!"(sorry, couldn't resist )

Basically geological determinism versus agency? Again, in less verbose terms, we are right back to, "who the fuck knows?". I certainly don't and neither do you. Nor does Jared diamond (very interesting ideas though, so I might just give that one a read).

The thing is, Mischief Maker, I was never debating any of that chicken and the egg tail chase.
My points have been directed towards addressing the differences between races and indeed cultures, in the here and now and how relativism has run amok. In that regard I don't foresee us seeing eye to eye on that any time soon.

[EmperorIng]

I can think of a few reasons why this lack of capital and affluence exist, and none of them have to do with genetics.

And you would no doubt be right. But to explain it all as a lack of nurture, with no bearing on nature? I think not.

You are vastly over-stating the role that genetics plays in peoples' success. Blacks steadily improved their livelihood for decades, despite suffering from racism and institutional discrimination. Yet it's only in the last 50 years or less, that statistically speaking, you see dramatic dissolution of black livelihood across the country, from the family to participation in the workforce and level of incarceration. In the grand scale of things, 50 years is not a long time. By focusing on such a small sample, you seem to want to paint a picture where this is largely determined by biology. What has happened in the last 50 years to bring about that change? Did Africans in the country suddenly devolve into drooling savages? In fact, they did not. But something else happened, and it has to do with policy, and how easy it is for people to work and make a living.

It sounds like you are trying to be coy and say "it's in their nature to be inferior [at these limited things, I swear!]", which sounds a lot like what a certain class of people used to say in the 1800s. And now, apparently.

Am I correct in reading this as, you do not accept that certain races are "better" at certain sports? That will be news to athletes concerned about higher natural testosterone levels exhibited by black competitors. How about chess? No pattern there either, huh?

I am saying that you ignoring a lot of cultural preconditioning in order to fit together a worldview that makes different groups of people permanently sealed off from one another, hard-coded in biology. Next you'll tell me how bad race-mixing is because you are diluting superior chess-playing genes. Note I brought up how people used to think that Jewish ethnicity made you a superior athlete as well. With pseudo-scientific studies explaining the differences, to boot.

There is nothing supremacist about acknowledging racial differences.

There is a difference (see above) when you take those differences to consign people as social, political, or economic inferiors and say "well there's nothing we can do." It's Social Darwinism all over again, and I thought people had rejected that stupid pseudo-science when some authoritarian governments decided to push that theory to its logical conclusion.

[Mischief Maker]

Keep digging.

Wow. You're a Sam Harris fan and the Google algorithm figured you would want articles critical of GG&S, especially right after he gave a softball interview to the author of "The Bell Curve."

Well I'm game. I entered "badhistory guns germs and steel" into google and here are the damning criticisms that came up in the AskHistorians reddit:

There's a reason it's used so frequently in undergraduate history courses- It's an entertaining introductory text that forces people to look at world history from a different vantage point. That being said, Diamond writes a rather oversimplified narrative that seemingly ignores the human element of history, instead portraying advancement as out of our control. I think most historians would agree that the issue isn't so black and white.

I agree completely. This is precisely why I suggested it to Zen as a starting point.

[Rob]

[GaijinPunch]

Proof (as if anyone needed it) that Trump was full of shit about colluding with Russia has been uncovered and you guys are in here fighting about who is better at basketball...

[Zen]

You are vastly over-stating the role that genetics plays in peoples' success.

I think not.

It sounds like you are trying to be coy and say "it's in their nature to be inferior [at these limited things, I swear!]", which sounds a lot like what a certain class of people used to say in the 1800s. And now, apparently.

If this is how you read what I am saying, its a sad state of affairs indeed. If you keep looking for monsters, EmperorIng, maybe one day you will find a real one. What kind of validation will that bring you, do you think?

I am saying that you ignoring a lot of cultural preconditioning in order to fit together a worldview that makes different groups of people permanently sealed off from one another, hard-coded in biology. Next you'll tell me how bad race-mixing is because you are diluting superior chess-playing genes. Note I brought up how people used to think that Jewish ethnicity made you a superior athlete as well. With pseudo-scientific studies explaining the differences, to boot.

It was a simple question to counter your "jewish basketball player" strawman. You read it to mean something entirely different.

Next you'll tell me how bad race-mixing is

I'm genuinely trying to be civil here. How much of a kicking do you chaps figure I should take, before we can all get down to honest discussion?

[Necronopticous]

Proof (as if anyone needed it) that Trump was full of shit about colluding with Russia has been uncovered and you guys are in here fighting about who is better at basketball...

Proof? POTUS doesn't even know this Donald Trump Jr guy! He never associated with him, and he was not involved in the campaign. Fake news.

[BryanM]

Proof (as if anyone needed it) that Trump was full of shit about colluding with Russia has been uncovered and you guys are in here fighting about who is better at basketball...

Could you maybe be a little more precise on what "collusion" means, exactly?

Barack Obama "colluded" to get Macron elected in France, but no one's screaming about that. Were they asking Russia to haXor ballots, assassinate people, spy on people on Trump's behalf, put their enemies in a gulag; what did they try to do exactly?

[antron]

The issue is receiving a "thing of value" from a foreign body for use in a campaign.

The letter of the law seems to be on Jr's side, but the spirit was to limit foreign campaign influence, and the information had been compiled and offered to do just that. (According to emails describing the meet)

Reading more about the legal meaning of "thing of value", it looks bad for Jr. Services are covered. And it may not matter if he actually received the "thing", or if it even exists. Just trying violates the law.

But it's one for the courts. This interpretation could be found overbroad from a free speech standpoint. But look at the intension that is clear from the emails.

[GaijinPunch]

Could you maybe be a little more precise on what "collusion" means, exactly?

Sure
Of course, that is only a word thrown around b/c "broke campaign laws" doesn't have a nice a ring to it.

[BryanM]

Reading more about the legal meaning of "thing of value", it looks bad for Jr. Services are covered. And it may not matter if he actually received the "thing", or if it even exists. Just trying violates the law.

But it's one for the courts. This interpretation could be found overbroad from a free speech standpoint. But look at the intention that is clear from the emails.

Hm, thanks for the summary. It's hard to build up a carecat with the 18 month long red-baiting, or the fact that in the rainbows and unicorns version of success here, is Junior going to jail and nothing of impact happens anywhere else.

(Though I guess in the cocaine aneurysm scenario of success, our president Mike Pence is officially made president and has an easier time getting horrible shit passed? ...Yay?)

Sure

So you meant to say "he talked to someone." The ever-exciting world of BENGHAZI/E-mails.

[Rob]

[GaijinPunch]

So you meant to say "he talked to someone." The ever-exciting world of BENGHAZI/E-mails.

A specific someone, yes.

[Zen]

How much of a kicking do you chaps figure I should take, before we can all get down to honest discussion?

Thanks for taking a few boots to the rib cage while I ran away.

My apologies, sir, if my post came across as a slight to you. This was not my intention.
Re-reading that sentence now, it was indeed a poor choice to use "I" within it and does come across a tad self-serving.

[Mortificator]

I like our history

We raped and killed

You got me. That's exactly what I meant by "our history and culture" - the killing and raping in Vietnam.

You also could have been talking about your own state. It makes all too much sense for you to use the possessive in reference to rape, considering Alaska has the highest incidence of rape in the US by a large margin.

I'm imagining a person in that environment who thinks all's cool and the big problem is preserving it in the face of Muslims. Seems to be quite the sicko.

[Rob]

.

[BryanM]

* Our overlords like apartheid just fine, thank you. Bill of rights, wazzat?

* Years ago, Donna Brazile suggested that Libya should pay us in exchange for us bombing them. "We'll bomb them, and make them pay for it!"

The democrats are having a slogan problem. A few viable ones come to mind:

For the many, not the few
Every man a king
Make America great again

Nah those would never work.

[Rob]

[BulletMagnet]

Bringing Somalia to you.

That would be the Libertarians - after all, functional government is overrated.

[antron]

My boss told me to expect the crimes of Susan Rice to be the real story during this administration. I'm about to go down the hall and fuck with him.

http://www.businessinsider.com/burr-say ... nes-2017-7

[BulletMagnet]

My boss told me to expect the crimes of Susan Rice to be the real story during this administration.

Oh boy, a Benghazi true believer, despite the fact that every single one of his fellow fearless GOP justice crusaders reflexively dropped the whole thing like a bag of flaming shit the second Hillary lost the election - sounds like a real force to be reckoned with.

[BryanM]

Funny how they're happy to scream Benghazi without any context, but never criticize the Libyan intervention, the cause of that attack.

It's almost like... they're all on the same team and just pretending to hate each other.

[antron]

My boss told me to expect the crimes of Susan Rice to be the real story during this administration.

Oh boy, a Benghazi true believer, despite the fact that every single one of his fellow fearless GOP justice crusaders reflexively dropped the whole thing like a bag of flaming shit the second Hillary lost the election - sounds like a real force to be reckoned with.

Na, nothing here about bengazi. My boss is no dummy, surely saw the writing on the wall regarding that a long time ago. His hope was on the unmasking. I think his bigger hope is on blaming the deep state in general.

I must say he is my friend.

It's all about the deep state narrative. Burr really poo-poo'd on that today. Get scared Trumpers.

[BulletMagnet]

His hope was on the unmasking. I think his bigger hope is on blaming the deep state in general.

That's still pretty damn deep into Alex Jones pig-human hybrid conspiracy territory. Though honestly I'm most surprised that you describe him as both a Libertarian and a decent person to work for, seeing as the hardcore free-market faithful rarely hide their seething contempt for anyone less rich than they are. Guess we'll take what we can get...

[antron]

His hope was on the unmasking. I think his bigger hope is on blaming the deep state in general.

That's still pretty damn deep into Alex Jones pig-human hybrid conspiracy territory.

Not anymore. It's the official white house playbook. It's Steve Bannon's reelection plan. It's Devin Nunes's corrupted existence.

[Rob]

.

[antron]

people like this who are unfamiliar with western notions like consent.

Yet you probably voted for Trump after seeing the access Hollywood tape.