PC shmupping on a CRT - what do I need to know?

[shorty]

Hi, a quick search on the hardware section yielded lots of results, but most of them weren't useful to me since I couldn't find the basic but nonetheless essential information on how to hook up my PC to an old CRT TV. If some of you experienced guys could point me out to some sort-of guide thread I would very much appreciate it.

Past few days I acquired a Samsung DNIe jr. CRT in the hopes I could hook it up to my PC and play some STG games on it on tate position. As far as I know my pc's gpu doesn't have TV-OUT functionality, so from what I learned I will have to get a video signal converter, but apart from that I know nothing. Another thing I came across that may pose a problem and I also know little about is resolution: Will the games be playable on the CRT video-wise? Thanks in advance.

[Xer Xian]

Fudoh comes to the rescue: http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/
If your PC motherboard/graphic card can't output VGA you also need an HDMI/DVI/DisplayPort to VGA converter. Be aware though that most of the devices covered in that article can be a bit difficult to find. If you think you can live with 480i through S-video you can also consider cheaper options (like a Kramer vp-501xl).

[gray117]

What region are you in? What inputs does your crt have?

Most of this translates to getting a 15kHz signal ... For ease of reference assume for now a screen refreash of 60Hz (i.e. your screen is scanned/refreshed 60 times a second).

@ around 240px vertical resolution (or below) your crt will ignore every other line leading to the aesthetic of 'scanlines' by updating visible lines 60 times a second and ignoring others (and helps to reduce apparent flicker). This is often broadly refered to as 240p. This is what most people using a crt will aim for. In reality vertical resolution maybe anything around 200-250 pixels. 240 is a convienient point to rationalise it - and half of 640x480 - your typical 4:3 (square pixel - yes not all pixels are square) image.

480i is an interlace picture. Where every other line is scanned a single time i.e. each line is updated 30 times a second. This is essentially a compromise to allow a 15kHz signal to support a higher resolution - essentially splitting the higher resolution in half. In order to play on a crt some will settle for this (the flicker and loss in scanlines not effecting them too much - mileage in this regard may vary depending on personal taste; personally I can't stand this, but for some it just doesn't effect them).

The vga
Generally speaking more recent games make use of 31khz - the kind of signal range used by vga/pc. These are progressive signals where every line is scanned each pass allowing for a stable image and higher resolutions that 31kHz can accomodate (it can also accomodate low resolutions too, but this is broadly useless to you if your monitor is 15kHz only). This is what happens on typical pc crt monitors.

the oddball
There is a medium res 24Khz but this effects very few examples and most games/monitors that support this will also have 15 and/or 31 kHz options... The more common (but still rare) monitors that support this often support 15khz and 31khz too and are referred to as tri-sync 15/24/31 - being able to sync to all 3 signal bands.


Hooking this up

... Then you've got to hook this all up to your crt.
RGB via whatever scart(euro land)/component/bnc/some custom connector is the preferred way to go. Here the pure RGB+sync is sent along dedicated lines (although sync is mixed into green on component)...

One of the differences/conversions immediately obvious between a typical 15kHz connection and a typical vga 31kHz connection is that the sync is is combined on 15kHz (RGBS or similar) and split vertical and horizontal on vga (RGBHV or similar). This can be done differently but these are the main standards... component connections with sync on green for example will be referred to as RGsB showing the sync as part of the green wire.

But of course there's edge cases in all of this. A wire is a wire and a plug is a plug. Component 'standard' is a common case in point; with some sets/connections offering both 15kHz and 31kHz compatibility via component. Others just one or the other. Typically with older tv's it's just going to be 15kHz.

Svideo is usually fine.

Anything else is not great


Your immediate options off the bat:

arcadevga ; pretty much the easiest pc -> monitor setup. You can probably find older versions as cheap as anything 2nd hand.
+ then a component/svideo/scart adapter if needed.

soft15khz ; much more fiddling around, can be a bit of luck with whether a card is compatible, doesn't boot in 15 khz; could damage crt if feeding it 31khz during boot.
+ then a component/svideo/scart adapter if needed.

Another scan converter such as extron emotia or something... Usually best employed when you've got other devices other than a pc to connect. (And when you've got more time and $ to invest.)

Alternatives
All of this sounds too much hassle? Perhaps try using either postfx/mame hlsl or equvilant to get a crt-like look on you modern display (welcome to input lag debates if you've not bumped into this before - warning you may end up buying new screens .

And yes fudph's whole site is basically a god send if you've got interests beyond hooking up a pc and/or just interested in any of this from a gaming point of view: http://www.hazard-city.de/

[Lord of Pirates]

Have you considered using a CRT monitor instead? As Gray pointed out, it's a lot of hassle to get setup on a TV.

[mvsfan]

Sony PGM. thats all you need.

[Hoagtech]

According to the manual that covers a few similar models in the series. You should have either dvi or hdmi on the back of your tv. Looking on the back to find your model would help

You most likely can just hook it up to your dvi port on the back of your gpu.

If it is just hdmi. Get an hdmi to dvi cord. They were listed in your optional accessories in your owners manual

. That's a nice tv. One of the last major brand production runs. I also found information on how to enter service and disable comb filters and such. I would give it a read.

http://diagramas.diagramasde.com/otros/ ... 20K16B.pdf

[shorty]

Thank you guys, especially gray117 for taking the time to write the little summary on CRT horizontal frequency (is that right? First time I read the reply it sounded like moonspeak to me due to my unfamiliarity to the topic ). By the way gray, reason why I want to hook up my pc to the CRT is because I think my pc's monitor sucks ass to play bullet hells due to its small size and the amount of effort it takes me to improvise a tate setup with it, since it didn't come with an rotative stand; that and also the belief, though never confirmed, that CRTs are better cuz "they have no lag" (don't know exactly where I read that but I'm sure I did). I used to play those kinda games in arcades in the late 90's and from what I can remember I used to perform much better than I do now (better display??); please tell me if I'm saying bs when it comes to the video latency thing.

Another thing: If I manage to find an arcadevga around here, will I be able to run the more recent Cave games released on Steam(I don't intend to emulate anything). The significantly devalued Brazillian currency right now doesn't allow me to go for a JAP Xbox360, so I'll have to wait and see if the CRT thing will work in the meantime.

[Lawfer]

How to know if your PC can output VGA or not?

I know my PC has no VGA ports, but it does have DVI-I outputs, so wouldn't it work if I got a DVI-A to VGA cable?

Like that:



Cause I found out that Metroid AMR2 was natively 320x240 (the unofficial remake of Metroid 2) and that's obviously best played on a CRT.

[gray117]

horizontal frequency

Well 15khz / 31khz is the signal frequency; often approximately translates to horizontal frequency. Until you get to higher resolutions @31khz at which point the horizontal frequency is actually higher I believe.

...And yes for 0 input lag a large crt is best, and the easiest to find is likely a 15khz crt. Is also aesthetically very pleasing/nostalgic/authentic.

However, if you are careful you may also find low input lag lcds - anything less than 30ms should be fine unless you're super sensitive to this, but requires research and is obviously more expensive (though also easier to get working and can be used with all you other games/systems).

Another thing: If I manage to find an arcadevga around here, will I be able to run the more recent Cave games released on Steam(I don't intend to emulate anything).

... Don't know... I think the lowest they'd run at would be 640x480 and you'd end up with 480i interlaced picture... You'd probably need a proper scan converter to get 240p... I'm not sure though. Sorry only ever used to emulate at actual res. Will try and see if there's a workaround ... probably have to test/confirm per game... there probably is, people did use it to play sfiv presumably on steam ... but never tried myself.

How to know if your PC can output VGA or not?
I know my PC has no VGA ports, but it does have DVI-I outputs, so wouldn't it work if I got a DVI-A to VGA cable?

Sure it wil work 100% fine as long as they are DVI-I and not DVI_D:
http://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/ ... d-dvi-d%3F