Isn't a ferrite bead more appropriate instead of using a resistor?mikejmoffitt wrote:In making a third and final revision of my PCB, would this be an adequate isolation of return paths for the two major components of the system?
I'm not talking about the layout, but the use of separate grounds and the 10 ohm resistor linking between the two. Digital electronics is my thing, not analog, so if anyone has a better suggestion, please let me know.
Just by the by: I don't plan on selling my board, I plan on leaving it open and making it easy for anyone to build and program their own, so any contributions are more of a community effort and less "making my private project better". I can set up an order link through Macrofab so you can have a fully assembled and tested board arrive at your door for around $60.
(Drawn using TurdCad)
Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
As far as I know, anything except a low-impedance ground connection is a bad idea? The signals from the FPGA to the DAC also need a ground return path, so if you force them to flow via the two ground connections to the console, which probably spreads the noise from switching the signals over a larger part of the system.mikejmoffitt wrote:I'm not talking about the layout, but the use of separate grounds and the 10 ohm resistor linking between the two. Digital electronics is my thing, not analog, so if anyone has a better suggestion, please let me know.
(Disclaimer: I'm a digital guy too and GCVideo-Lite has noticable pixel clock interference on its DAC outputs, so my attempt to filter the DAC's power supply with a C-L-C configuration failed)
I don't need it, but: Yay! Open hardware is always nicer than some single-vendor closed solution whose supply might stop at any point.Just by the by: I don't plan on selling my board, I plan on leaving it open and making it easy for anyone to build and program their own
GCVideo releases: https://github.com/ikorb/gcvideo/releases
Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
no I did not but I see where you're going with this. if I only do number one the jail bars are still there. I guess the extra ground point stops the voltage returning on the single wire to the video encoder. i'm still a bit confused about the fundamentals of what this fixes. The initial thought was that these high spikes were being generated on the amplifier output. what changed?borti4938 wrote:Nice You were faster than my I was with just my reply to your first question!leonk wrote:SUCCESS!!!!! I GOT RID OF JAILBARS FROM N64RGB!!
Here's the 2 things you must do:
1) Remove MultiAV port and lift up the 2 GND pins. Protect the existing GND pads from touching the pins (I use electrical tape on pins). Solder socket back down and wires from amp to port. The GND wire now connects above rather than bottom.
IMPORTANT: Both GND pins must tie together. Can't just do 1 and hope cable ties them together!
2) Run short wire from GND pad on N64RGB (next to M A G pads) to frame. I soldered it directly to shield.
All jailbars are gone! Ground loop broken while other ports have single path to ground.
Have you tried if it is also sufficient to just use point No.2?
Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
For Analog Devices ADV7513 they repeatedly suggest using separate analog and digital ground planes with a low impedance connection. Yet on their $600 evaluation board I'm almost certain that they use a single ground plane for everything...mikejmoffitt wrote:In making a third and final revision of my PCB, would this be an adequate isolation of return paths for the two major components of the system?
I'm not talking about the layout, but the use of separate grounds and the 10 ohm resistor linking between the two. Digital electronics is my thing, not analog, so if anyone has a better suggestion, please let me know.
Just by the by: I don't plan on selling my board, I plan on leaving it open and making it easy for anyone to build and program their own, so any contributions are more of a community effort and less "making my private project better". I can set up an order link through Macrofab so you can have a fully assembled and tested board arrive at your door for around $60.
(Drawn using TurdCad)
Are you having noise issues on the output?
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
Excellent work, Leon! Massive THANK YOU to Leon, Borti and Tim for putting in the time to correct this issue. Truly appreciate the time you guys put in
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mikejmoffitt
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
With each rev of the board, the noise gets to be less and less, through additional tightly-placed capacitors on the 5V VCC for the ADV7123, and better ground fill coverage on both sides. On my old repurposed-neoVGA-board setup, some very slight jailbars could be seen. When the new boards come in, I'll see how they are.Woozle wrote:For Analog Devices ADV7513 they repeatedly suggest using separate analog and digital ground planes with a low impedance connection. Yet on their $600 evaluation board I'm almost certain that they use a single ground plane for everything...mikejmoffitt wrote:In making a third and final revision of my PCB, would this be an adequate isolation of return paths for the two major components of the system?
I'm not talking about the layout, but the use of separate grounds and the 10 ohm resistor linking between the two. Digital electronics is my thing, not analog, so if anyone has a better suggestion, please let me know.
Just by the by: I don't plan on selling my board, I plan on leaving it open and making it easy for anyone to build and program their own, so any contributions are more of a community effort and less "making my private project better". I can set up an order link through Macrofab so you can have a fully assembled and tested board arrive at your door for around $60.
(Drawn using TurdCad)
Spoiler
Are you having noise issues on the output?
On my Terasic DE2 dev boards, which have ADV7123 DACs on them, there is no visible noise on anything. For those, ground is just ground for everything, and there's no separate ground.
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holaplaneta
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
Same here guys!! You are truly the Sleuths of retro gaming tech!!CaveManGamer wrote:Excellent work, Leon! Massive THANK YOU to Leon, Borti and Tim for putting in the time to correct this issue. Truly appreciate the time you guys put in
Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
The noise is caused by the current going to the N64RGB modding PCB. This current needs a return path to the N64 mainboards ground. Lets say you solder just single 'long' wire (with data lines) or maybe a second 'short' wire to the MultiAV for ground connection. Compared to the four short wires for the video signals (assume that you also soldered /CS or /CS75) the one or two wires have a higher resistance.leonk wrote: no I did not but I see where you're going with this. if I only do number one the jail bars are still there. I guess the extra ground point stops the voltage returning on the single wire to the video encoder. i'm still a bit confused about the fundamentals of what this fixes. The initial thought was that these high spikes were being generated on the amplifier output. what changed?
So the current will take your wires for the video signals as the return path!
I installed two additional GND connection very very close to modding board. In that way the GND-loop becomes very small and the jail bars are eliminated
Spoiler
Yes, terasic doesn't use separate GND planes as far as I remember. Also not on the DE1-SOC kit. But remember that you don't create a loop if you use the dev board.mikejmoffitt wrote: On my Terasic DE2 dev boards, which have ADV7123 DACs on them, there is no visible noise on anything. For those, ground is just ground for everything, and there's no separate ground.
Mhhhh... Why does the Hi-Def NES and the UltraHDMI came in my mind...???Unseen wrote: I don't need it, but: Yay! Open hardware is always nicer than some single-vendor closed solution whose supply might stop at any point.
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mikejmoffitt
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
It sounds like adding additional ground connections to the N64 near the analog section would help, then, rather than this bizarro "remove ground from the MultiAV port" stuff.
Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
the challenge is on! I will restore the port and just add extra gnd.mikejmoffitt wrote:It sounds like adding additional ground connections to the N64 near the analog section would help, then, rather than this bizarro "remove ground from the MultiAV port" stuff.
FYI. When I do NESRGB install, I always add extra GND wire. I should have used my intuition and this might not have been an issue!
Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
Short story: The better the connection to GND (more and more and short wires) the less noise on the video lines.
Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
Hey. I have a unit recently Modded by leonk. Its a superb mod and use it on a bvm so don't see any issues. Is there something that needs to be done to avoid long term damage? Cheers
Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
There is no damage done. If you ever move to xrgb or ossc send it in for free fix. BVM ignores the hi speed noise hence why you (nor I) see it on crt.LDigital wrote:Hey. I have a unit recently Modded by leonk. Its a superb mod and use it on a bvm so don't see any issues. Is there something that needs to be done to avoid long term damage? Cheers
Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
Would you mind sharing a picture of where you add it, maybe in the NESRGB thread? I'm wondering if that could help the diagonal jail bars I have through s-video.leonk wrote:FYI. When I do NESRGB install, I always add extra GND wire. I should have used my intuition and this might not have been an issue!
Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
I would check where the S-video port was getting it's ground from. Make sure it gets it from one of the gnd pads on the nesrgb board and no where else.copy wrote:Would you mind sharing a picture of where you add it, maybe in the NESRGB thread? I'm wondering if that could help the diagonal jail bars I have through s-video.leonk wrote:FYI. When I do NESRGB install, I always add extra GND wire. I should have used my intuition and this might not have been an issue!
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holaplaneta
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
Thanks for the pictures Borti. I'm planning on doing this fix tomorrow but I was wondering where the ends of those GND cables should be soldered to.borti4938 wrote: I installed two additional GND connection very very close to modding board. In that way the GND-loop becomes very small and the jail bars are eliminated
Did you solder them directly to the aluminum shield? Or is the black cable on the first picture soldered to both the metal plate and to GND on the Multiout?
and is the metal string on the second picture soldered directly to the plastic at the botton of the aluminum plate? Or is it to a screw head?
Cheers and congrats on finding a fix for this issue!
Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
I use silver bendable wires.
On the modding board they are soldered to the GND pads.
On the N64 they are fixed by
a) the screw, and
b) by the RF shields.
Then I bend the silver wires such that they lie on the big heat sink (the black wire is just soldered to the silver wire, not on the heat sink).
Soldering to the huge heat sink would be better but you need a lot of power / heat to solder anything onto it...
On the modding board they are soldered to the GND pads.
On the N64 they are fixed by
a) the screw, and
b) by the RF shields.
Then I bend the silver wires such that they lie on the big heat sink (the black wire is just soldered to the silver wire, not on the heat sink).
Soldering to the huge heat sink would be better but you need a lot of power / heat to solder anything onto it...
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holaplaneta
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
Thank you for the detailed instructions!
I did the mod and it worked beautifully!!! No more jailbars on the framemeister!
I did the mod and it worked beautifully!!! No more jailbars on the framemeister!
Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
borti4938,
I like your idea of connecting the board to the heat sink for a ground connection. I added this as a final step in the N64RGB install guide.
I like your idea of connecting the board to the heat sink for a ground connection. I added this as a final step in the N64RGB install guide.
Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
yes Tim. that will fix jailbars on xrgb mini and ossc.
I can confitm that ground doesnt need to be lifted on multiAV port.
I can confitm that ground doesnt need to be lifted on multiAV port.
Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
So it's solved?
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
Just wanted to say thanks to Tim & Borti for such an awesome board and firmware. I recently installed this with Borti's custom IGR firmware and wow this is awesome!
Thanks guys!
Crazedbinary
Thanks guys!
Crazedbinary
Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
agreed. difference much more noticeable on xrgb mini than my pvm.
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mikejmoffitt
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
I've fixed the 480i "bob" functionality, and a bad bug that made DK64 never use the deblur function.
Working on a detection heuristic next, and then this is feature complete.
Working on a detection heuristic next, and then this is feature complete.
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bobrocks95
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
Hey mike, will the code for that be publicly available? Thinking about portability to Tim's board once you've got it figured out.mikejmoffitt wrote:I've fixed the 480i "bob" functionality, and a bad bug that made DK64 never use the deblur function.
Working on a detection heuristic next, and then this is feature complete.
PS1 Disc-Based Game ID BIOS patch for MemCard Pro and SD2PSX automatic VMC switching.
Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
For some reason he has removed the GitHub repository. To my experience the code would rarely fit into the EPM240T100; however, the board of viletim is also able to carry a EPM570T100 (but with not enogh decoupling caps).
At the moment I'm thinking of publishing my version of the N64RGB board for DIY modders. The board is able to carry MaxII and MaxV CPLDs (Vccint selectable via a jumper), it uses resistor arrays instead of single resistors and it has more filtering components on it incl. for the incomming data lines.
At the moment I'm thinking of publishing my version of the N64RGB board for DIY modders. The board is able to carry MaxII and MaxV CPLDs (Vccint selectable via a jumper), it uses resistor arrays instead of single resistors and it has more filtering components on it incl. for the incomming data lines.
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bobrocks95
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
If the heuristic won't fit on Tim's board I'm perfectly fine with IGR activation, but more publicly available options definitely doesn't hurt.
PS1 Disc-Based Game ID BIOS patch for MemCard Pro and SD2PSX automatic VMC switching.
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mikejmoffitt
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
Sorry, I'm on the fence about making a proper mod kit so for the time being I'm not distributing the heuristic.
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bobrocks95
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Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
If anyone was waiting on Tim's N64RGB board to be back in stock, it is as of today.
@borti - Just to double-check, if I want to use your IGR firmware, but don't care about reset capabilities, I just wouldn't connect a wire to PIF-NUS pin 27, right?
@borti - Just to double-check, if I want to use your IGR firmware, but don't care about reset capabilities, I just wouldn't connect a wire to PIF-NUS pin 27, right?
PS1 Disc-Based Game ID BIOS patch for MemCard Pro and SD2PSX automatic VMC switching.
Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing
Does it have Borti's newest deblur firmware?bobrocks95 wrote:If anyone was waiting on Tim's N64RGB board to be back in stock, it is as of today.
@borti - Just to double-check, if I want to use your IGR firmware, but don't care about reset capabilities, I just wouldn't connect a wire to PIF-NUS pin 27, right?