Market Research

[nexic]

Hey everyone,

My name is Neil Yates and I am an idependent shooter game developer who runs Jagged Blade Software. Up until now I have been making very basic shooters, without much depth and that are so easy you guys would die of boredom after 5 minutes. I'm making a living out of it by selling to 'casual' shooter gamers, but it's not really where I want to be.

I'm looking into the possibility of making a pretty hardcore shmup, in the aim of tapping a new market but to be honsest I'm not sure this market really exists in large numbers. The gist of things amoung developers is that no one would buy them, but it seems an odd thing to say as no one has really tried (aside from Steel Saviour, and maybe Jets N Guns). There are other titles like Astrobatics, Absolute Blue and Alien Stars but I don't think they really capture the level of 'hardcore' I was thinking.

The game certainly wouldn't be quite as hard, or intense as a top console shmup like Gradius-V, but it would at least be a challenge that could provide a few hours of fun, as well as two player mode, online score posting and different game modes. It would be sold for $19.95.

So what I'm asking is would any of you buy something like this for the PC? Do you ever wish there were more games like this available for the PC?

At the moment it feels like I'm making shooters, that play like puzzle games, in order to please puzzle gamers... and I'm starting to get sick of it. Would be really great if I could go this way.

Thanks!

[fl0w]

Frankly I don't like steel saviour and jets'n'guns much... There's something that just doesn"t make it.

But it seems you're ignoring a few Japanese doujins shmups, for example those made by Team Shangai Alice:
http://www16.big.or.jp/~zun/

So there is obviously a market for low-price quality PC shmups...

Good luck! ( (c) Cave )

[ZacharyB]

Just make sure to take note on this board of which shmups have failed and which seem to be popular.

Take for instance XOP, another excellent PC-based shooter which also retailed for $20. It did not sell well due to a lack of advertising but it seems to be a quality game.

[Thunder Force]

You may also find some relevant information in the Shmup Development subforum.

[nexic]

Take for instance XOP, another excellent PC-based shooter which also retailed for $20. It did not sell well due to a lack of advertising but it seems to be a quality game.

Well I took at look at XOP and I think a good reason why it didn't sell so well is perhaps down to the graphics. It was released in 2004 (i think) and it was just a bit too retro. It is a good game (from what little there is in the demo) but it seemed really unpolished and rough around the edges. I think you guys here can look past the retro look, afterall you're used to it, but I'm guessing there are a lot of people it matters to.

For example although I had fun, I would never buy it mainly because it doesn't feel like I'm getting a quality product. Though the same game with better graphics and UI, and it would have got a sale from me.

[Dave_K.]

For example although I had fun, I would never buy it mainly because it doesn't feel like I'm getting a quality product. Though the same game with better graphics and UI, and it would have got a sale from me.

I think this is where your opinion will differ most from shmup players on this forum, as we less about graphics, and more about gameplay mechanics and scoring. Maybe you haven't seen VAX11, but its a manic shooter that uses ascii characters (although drawn in directx) and people here love it, even have a highscore thread devoted to it.

[fl0w]

For example although I had fun, I would never buy it mainly because it doesn't feel like I'm getting a quality product. Though the same game with better graphics and UI, and it would have got a sale from me.

OTOH, steel saviour is graphically very nice (i remember when I saw the demo of T-Zwei... I was like @_@) but it lacks fun (imho).

People here will generally consider the gameplay first, then, well, the rest.

<joke>and don't forget your game MUST have true low res</joke>

[Andi]

I think this is where your opinion will differ most from shmup players on this forum, as we less about graphics, and more about gameplay mechanics and scoring. Maybe you haven't seen VAX11, but its a manic shooter that uses ascii characters (although drawn in directx) and people here love it, even have a highscore thread devoted to it.

Graphics do matter to an extent. The thing about Vax11 is that it has stylishly bad graphics - bad graphics with intention behind them. Low resolution sprites and sloppy graphic glitches probably wouldn't fly here, regardless of how fun the game is. And, really, who doesn't like a little eye candy?

[raiden]

I think if you want to access a substantial market share with a hardcore shmup, you need to market to Japan. Among the people on this board, you may sell 100-200 games. In Japan, "the scene" is so much bigger it´s a different scale. There´s a fair called Comiket being held two times a year (August and December if I remember correctly), where dozens of developers introduce their products, often in special limited editions just for that fair, in runs like 1000 pieces, being sold out quickly and becoming sought-after collector´s items afterwards, so the overall market there is much larger. Some time ago, someone here posted an extensive coverage including links to the official Comiket page and more, but I´m afraid I lost the bookmarks.
But before you book tickets, you might want to look at some of the hundreds of demos availlable for free:
http://shootthecore.moonpod.com/PClinks1.html
and see whether you can imagine doing something in that style yourself.
Shanghai Alice games like Embodiment of Scarlet Devils, Perfect Cherry Blossom and Imperishable Night, or the exceptional Bike Banditz are probably landmarks in both gameplay as well as presentation qualities.

The advantage of marketing to a hardcore audience is the fact they don´t tire of your products if you continue to deliver quality. And they tend to be eager to support developers whose products they like, so you are much less likely to run into people who search for a crack instead of registering, like it´s all too common with the casual crowd.
But I think it´s also possible to reach both worlds, it´s just that in the past shmups with the best graphics were often disappointing in terms of gameplay and level design. The trick, I think is reserving enough time for playtesting, which is absolutely standard in large-scale development, but often undervalued in commercial PC shmups, at least those developed outside of Japan. That´s no Japaniac point of view, just a neutral observation.

[Thunder Force]

I think if you want to access a substantial market share with a hardcore shmup, you need to market to Japan.

That's a big ask, for any western game developer. I think only a handful of western titles in the past decade have succeeded in Japan. (Ratchet & Clank, Crash Bandicoot, a few others)

[Dave_K.]

I think this is where your opinion will differ most from shmup players on this forum, as we less about graphics, and more about gameplay mechanics and scoring. Maybe you haven't seen VAX11, but its a manic shooter that uses ascii characters (although drawn in directx) and people here love it, even have a highscore thread devoted to it.

Graphics do matter to an extent. The thing about Vax11 is that it has stylishly bad graphics - bad graphics with intention behind them. Low resolution sprites and sloppy graphic glitches probably wouldn't fly here, regardless of how fun the game is. And, really, who doesn't like a little eye candy?

Of course graphic glitches, or sprites that are difficult to see/discern would hinder gameplay and scoring. But there are plenty of low resolution 16-bit shooters that people here really enjoy. I'm just trying to tell him to focus more on the gameplay than silly 3D polymodels, backgrounds, particle effects, and menus.

[Ghegs]

I'm just trying to tell him to focus more on the gameplay than silly 3D polymodels, backgrounds, particle effects, and menus.

A lesson most western indie developers should learn.

You can always spot a western-developed shmup when the Features list goes something like "18 different weapons! Deep, meaningful story enrichened by 30 minutes of high-quality CGI! 25 different types of enemy, all fully animated polygon models!"

[it290]

Manics shooters are generally the most popular around here, but I think if you want to appeal to the 'hardcore' as well as the masses, you're better off drawing inspiration from console shooters - Gradius as you mentioned, but also for example the Thunderforce series. These games have wide appeal to shooter fans and newbies alike.

[system11]

Another vote for not bothering with 3D. Look at Thunderforce 3 and 4 now - there's still nothing graphically wrong with them, at all. They don't look half as cheap as many PC attempts I've seen, yet have far lower resolutions. Maybe that's something to consider.

[nexic]

You can always spot a western-developed shmup when the Features list goes something like "18 different weapons! Deep, meaningful story enrichened by 30 minutes of high-quality CGI! 25 different types of enemy, all fully animated polygon models!"

I could have sworn you just got that text off of my site.... point taken!

Well the problem with marketing to Japan is that the competition is so much greater. I'm a one man team and I really doubt I can compete.

As for graphics I won't be going mad, I never do. I find that you can get a pretty nice looking game without too much hard work these days. And I will be going 2D (as with all my games).

My entire marketing plan isn't just to sell directly to you guys, but rather sell to a market which you best represent.

So do any of you play many shooters on the PC, or do you tend to go more for console stuff? How many shooters would you buy in a year for example?

[LSU]

I also think it's going to be quite hard for a western developer to break into the Japanese market with a shmup, but no harm in trying.

IMO there really aren't many decent western produced shmups (most developers seem to quite spectacularly miss the point), but occasionally they can be great - the Bitmap Bros' Xenon games, Team 17's Project X, almost all of Jeff Minter's stuff, and the early Williams shooters are all good to a higher or lesser degree - and there are more (lots of good C64 shmups to consider, for instance).

And as well as looking at the good / Japanese games you want to draw inspiration from, take a look at the games that don't work too, so you can avoid making the same mistakes they did - the infamous Retro Force of course comes to mind, but also some of the more borderline stuff like Rage's Expendable - despite the pretty graphics, it's a very shallow imitation indeed of Contra.

[raiden]

That's a big ask, for any western game developer. I think only a handful of western titles in the past decade have succeeded in Japan. (Ratchet & Clank, Crash Bandicoot, a few others)

well, those were titles designed with a western target audience in mind. A shmup is something different.
Remember Bloodrain? The game I made almost 3 years ago, still linked to in my profile, although I´m not at all content anymore with the way it was finished back then. I´ve been watching the download quota over the years. Of course, download doesn´t equal sales, but it´s still interesting in this context, I think. I posted in several western message boards, tried to convince people of the gameplay concepts, got listed in a few shareware sites, search engines, the works. For the jp. market, I just contacted 2 websites, one mentioned it briefly.
Well, at first by far the most download requests were coming from western countries. But that interest quickly dissolved. Japan and other Asian countries, however, have shown continuing interest without me even lifting a finger to advertise the game in any way. I´m always wondering where they´re referred from, and I´ve found a few jp. message boards and shareware sites I hadn´t been aware of before this way. It´s really awkward, I don´t feel the game deserves this interest anymore, yet there it is. Okay, I did a few things back then trying to push jp. awareness, like a jp. manual translation (done by me, very badly) and a jp. section on the website (not done by me). But those are things everybody can implement (maybe with a little help) if he wants them. All I´m saying is: it´s worth the effort.

[Alske]

Sorry to put a damper on your plans, but I don't play shooters on my PC. I hardly play any games on it at all. I just don't find it as enjoyable a device to interface with as a console. The fact that there aren't good joysticks available for PC is a hinderance. You can use a converter, but that almost always introduces input lag.

To answer your other question: I buy every single shooter that interests me.

[OneEyedJack]

There are good joysticks for the PC.

You can buy an x-arcade or a slik-stick, or even make your own like you would for a console.

Or you can buy a pad, of which there are plenty to choose from.

[Ganelon]

Err, the X-Arcade is noted for having severe input lag. Anything else would probably be better.

[Damocles]

Err, the X-Arcade is noted for having severe input lag. Anything else would probably be better.

??? First I've heard of it, and I've had mine for three years.

[Ganelon]

It's been the laughing-stock stick at SRK for years now with many people also complaining about their poor workmanship.

[fl0w]

the x-arcade may not be the best stick in the world, but i've never felt any lag (though i don't use it much on my pc).

I'm currenntly building my own stick around the xgaming kit.

BTW, back to the topic.

The idea you should aim at the jp market is excellent, moreover if you're alone and want to earn money and live from the games you write. Westerners don't buy shmups (except a few ones), Japanese do. And the Japanese know how to make good shmups. Imitate them, but it won't be enough, you have to innovate.

We want good gameplay, we also want new ideas. The graphics can be simple. Have a look at Kenta Cho's games IMMEDIATELY His latest masterpiece, mu-Cade is truly awesome, so are his previous games.

mu-Cade is not a "pure" shmup, but the gameplay is very open and refreshing. Moreover, the game involves a physic engine which allows the player to imagine a lot of techniques. We all love Cave here, but you'll hear many people claim their games are more or less always similar. There's room for something different...

[it290]

I have to agree on the X-Arcade thing. It's not the best stick ever but there isn't really any noticable lag when plugging it into the keyboard port. With the various adapters, maybe.

[zaphod]

Ahh the joys of converer lag...

yes, xarcade only truly works right as a PC input device using ps2 port...

[Andi]

Nexic: Would you be writing a Mac port of the game as well at some point?

[shiftace]

I mostly play on a PC, but I haven't spent any money on games in a few years. I play shmups on a keyboard, input lag seems to vary between keyboards and even between reboots, and sometimes it seems to go away.

I think there are enough good free PC shmups that I would only spend money for presentation these days. I expect I'll get around to buying Perfect Cherry Blossom and/or Imperishable Night someday.

[nexic]

Nexic: Would you be writing a Mac port of the game as well at some point?

Yes that would be the plan if it generated a decent amount of praise on the PC. Porting to the mac is something I've done before and really it would probably only take a week or two of work.

Also if I could get Mircosoft interested enough I might be able to get it into the XBox 360 Live Arcade. I think they are after more hardcore shooters...

The great thing about my situation now is that even if it didn't sell I would still be alright financially. So even if the market isn't so big doing it still wouldn't be such a disaster.

[OneEyedJack]

I did mean to reference it only as far as the PC platform.

And remember, that the needs of the fighting game community is much different than the shooter community.

I own an xbox red octane stick that is great for shooters but sucks for SF games. The needs are very much different.