Blue Revolver

[Cagar]

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[blackrabite]

Would somebody care to explain how points are derived from bullet patterns in (mid?)bosses? Sometimes I just get x8 per bullet, other times more...? Also, are break bonuses a flat amount, like... so long as you achieve the BREAK, you get a set amount of points? I really mean to watch the STG-Weekly on it soon, but for now I'm locked up at work. Thanks, all!

[Bananamatic]

It's hilarious that you defend it even after saying this yourself

Because as I said multiple times, looking at games purely from an objective standpoint is retarded, I never said the scoring is objectively good or balanced but the game is overall still good despite those issues
and the amount of people who still play the game in arcades (unlike pink sweets or akai katana) only seems to confirm that a lot of people still like the game

So you know what game is really cool?

Blue Revolver.

yes, that's why you shouldn't let the opinions of a fraud who claims himself to be an "elitistic shmup player" yet gives up on any game in a week due to reasons like "I can't dodge everything on the first try" ruin it

No, I didn't mean that. I meant that there are literally many patterns and sitautions that you have to know beforehand before they're even theoretically possible to dodge regardless of your skill level. Patterns that are literal walls or surprise kills. And I mean basic stage bosses and midbosses.

you play the game a few times and you know it's there, considering they're supposed to be deep masterpieces with infinite replayability and insane skill caps, how is this an issue that would make you quit the game?

Most casual watchers can't tell apart a futari ultra 80m every extend run (which is trivial if you have decent routes)

ahahahahhahaaa yeah, you're in denial. It's still extremely impressive and a good achievement, even you already admitted that people were impressed.

how am I in denial when I said that people get impressed even by runs that aren't exactly superplay material like you said?
even though the 80m every clear is a decent achievement, assuming you get a modest 2bil, 80m every gives you 28 extends in total compared to the default 5 - the difference in how demanding the game is to clear with 5 deaths compared to 28 is beyond massive, yet casual watchers don't really understand that

If these TW3R and Cagar Labels and whatnot are so great and all why have their life cycles not fared any better than any other indie shmup? I don't think the things you're saying for a game's survival really matter as much as you seem to say they do. Clearly there's more to the picture here that's been missing from this discussion.

the point here is that cagar has super specific conditions for "good design" that are so ridiculous that no game ever fulfills it except for the games he makes himself (everything has to be dodgeable blind, no memo, high skill caps, extremely deep, not "too static" and other vague shit), runs into a thread proclaiming it to be the truth that "all elite players should see and the genre would die without" and expects a dev to hand over the code to a commercial game just so he can do his own arrange mode

if you can't see why someone would think you're a wanker for acting that way then I don't know

I actually liked TW3R before cagar started trying to shill it everywhere for how perfect it is
it's ok but not a cure for cancer

[Squire Grooktook]

It has enough bullets to appeal to my throbbing bullet-boner, but it feels like it harkens back to the SNES days somehow.

IMO it's the macro dodging.

I love complex sight reading, but what kills most danmaku games for me is that the small hitboxes often reward you for focusing and dodging while moving at a speed of 2 inches per hour. Microtaps = Yawn.

I'm a hyperactive person, and I like hyperactive movement. And that's one reason (along with the characterful and unique player character abilities, which Blue Revolver also channels a bit with its sub weapons) that I prefer oldschool pre-danmaku shooters in many ways. Since the larger hitboxes mean that you have to cover more ground to dodge bullets, thus rewarding higher movement speeds and giving things a more visceral feel.

BR is one of those danmaku games which is A-Okay in my book because it uses macro dodging to get the best of both worlds. Patterns like the stage 3 boss 2nd pattern where you're zig zagging all over the place to macro those waves are simply sublime and everything a shmup pattern should be IMO. Overall the game is still a little bit too danmaku slanted to be my "best pattern design ever" game, but it's balance of small/large movements is much more respectable than most of its peers IMO.

[Cagar]

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[marus]

Would somebody care to explain how points are derived from bullet patterns in (mid?)bosses? Sometimes I just get x8 per bullet, other times more...?

Some bosses have destructible parts/bullets that you can use to build up your hit counter. If you kill the boss phase while you have a chain going, then you'll get a multiplier on the cancelled bullets. Note that you don't have to kill the boss with your special weapon to trigger the multiplier like you do with regular enemies - just killing the boss with the regular shot while a chain is going is sufficient. The 2nd phase of the stage 1 boss is a good place to observe this.

Also, are break bonuses a flat amount, like... so long as you achieve the BREAK, you get a set amount of points? I really mean to watch the STG-Weekly on it soon, but for now I'm locked up at work. Thanks, all!

As far as I've noticed, the Break bonuses are all worth a static amount. Some Breaks are worth more than others though.

[blackrabite]

Oh, okay, perfect! Thanks for the help.

[Bananamatic]

No no no. There are tons of games that are fine in this regard (almost everything CAVE for starters, but not only that), but I'm just sad about the downward trend. It's literally why SFV is what it is, that's where we are going too.
The discussion went on for too long and my original point got skewed out of proportion, it looks pretty retarded and it's not as big of a deal to me as it now seems, lol.
Besides, you should take a look at my post here.

SFV is a competitive game that requires balance and a few frame data changes can change stuff a lot as other players impact what you play against and how much fun you're having
shmups are casual by nature despite looking "hardcore", there is no meta, no need to "keep up" with the game, you can drop ketsui for a year and come back and nothing will change and you can easily continue from where you left off without any extra work to do
overanalyzing them objectively like a competitive game is useless in my opinion, especially those graphs don't mean much as different people perceive the game differently and even stuff that's too easy can be fun and not lead to boredom

I still truly think so, assuming you mean what i think you mean here. Wait and see, if you already haven't come to the same conclusion after all these years and games.

the longer I play shmups, the less I think you can just determine popularity and how much you'll enjoy a game by objectively judging the mechanics and I notice myself returning to games I would consider shit before

I gave garegga 10 hours during the last week and I enjoyed it way more than I expected to, despite the controls being ass, having too much slowdown, boss milking where you don't even move and RNG being a considerable thing that potentially ruins runs
even the "dead air" part with the platforms was fun, just to kill stuff and pick up the medals, the platforms barely shoot anything and there is nothing to do if you're not bombing them for score, but it felt fun for some reason, just getting the damn 10k medals you kept up to that point even if it's near effortless and requires basically no execution skills
I still think the game would benefit a ton from better controls and the slowdown not kicking in so early, but I could imagine returning to it someday for a big score despite it sounding like shit on paper

same with blue revolver, just get the 8 hit chain and hyper laser to see those x64s pop up, feels fun and rewarding, the game controls well and the soundtrack is cool and there is no part that really feels like dead air, even the last 3 stages (though the stage 5 design being a midboss rush is a bit unusual, but not exactly bad)

I wouldn't be surprised if I ended up playing pink sweets at one point and enjoyed it, and that game is what I would consider an antithesis of objectively good shmup design

[Squire Grooktook]

I'm totallly fine with the stage 5 design also tbh.

It has a nice "climactic" feel to it, makes it feel like shit is getting real before that pounding final boss theme cues and you know you're in the rush.

Also boss rushes aren't bad. Especially when they're as fun as those bosses. Even the ones that do the same pattern for a little too long work in terms of adding some "how long can I hold out" tension and rhythm..

[Shepardus]

The thing about "objective" analysis of shmups is that I think people here tend to focus on the wrong things and their analysis ends up not aligning with their actual experience with and enjoyment of the game. When I find myself enjoying a game significantly more or less than I expected to, I try to reevaluate what it is I actually value based on these findings.

[Cagar]

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[Shepardus]

Unlike SFV which needs an active playerbase to be worth playing, I don't think it matters to many people whether a shmup will keep them busy for 50 hours or 500. And when a game's offered as a one-time purchase as opposed to a coin-op, F2P, or subscription model, it doesn't matter much to commercial success either. If anything, I think presenting a high skill ceiling as

almost the redeeming core value of the genre

alienates more people than it attracts, who perceive the game as beyond anything they could ever do or requiring a "no-life" mentality to master. Of course the fact that there is a high skill ceiling isn't to blame here, it's more a matter of this skill potential being portrayed as a major selling point, which I think is counterproductive. There are plenty of things I could spend an entire lifetime learning and mastering, that doesn't mean I actually want to.

[MathU]

Finally gave this a try today and here are two things I like about it right off the bat:

-Full control customization, thank you!
-A Linux port! Runs great with no extra fuss for me on Xubuntu 16.04 here. I really hope this starts a trend!

Have you considered releasing it as an appimage? This way you can be sure not to run into any dependency issues. Probably want to move past telling people to run a .sh script at some point regardless.

[Blem]

I wouldn't be surprised if I ended up playing pink sweets at one point and enjoyed it, and that game is what I would consider an antithesis of objectively good shmup design

Pink Sweets is fun if you try not to pay attention to all the horrible parts.

[Oniros]

Anyone here who streams with Nvidia Shadowplay? For some reason, I can't stream BR unless I allow the program to stream my desktop. :/

shadowplay doesn't support opengl applications for whatever reason, BR is opengl.

Never knew that, what load of BS Nvidia. >:(

[Emuser]

Pink Sweets was revolutionary, I don't know what people have against it.

[Illyrian]

Pink Sweets was revolutionary, I don't know what people have against it.

The level of difficulty.

The wierd gaudy colours.

That it takes the rank system of games like Garegga and Ibara and pushes it too far, so literally doing ANYTHING is terrible for rank control.

The extend system coming from cancelling bullets instead of score.

These aren't my issues with it personally, I like the game and it's arrange mode.

[trap15]

That it takes the rank system of games like Garegga and Ibara and pushes it too far, so literally doing ANYTHING it terrible for rank control.

Since there's little actual ability to rank control, you might as well ignore that you can control it and just treat it like any other game with rank you don't notice.

The extend system coming from cancelling bullets instead of score.

False. The extends are based on a "small" enemies killed-with-shot counter.

[Illyrian]

That it takes the rank system of games like Garegga and Ibara and pushes it too far, so literally doing ANYTHING it terrible for rank control.

Since there's little actual ability to rank control, you might as well ignore that you can control it and just treat it like any other game with rank you don't notice.

The extend system coming from cancelling bullets instead of score.

False. The extends are based on a "small" enemies killed-with-shot counter.

Huh. I thought you got extends by cancelling a whole bunch of bullets. Fair enough.

[trap15]

Nope, replays just do that for points.

[Shepardus]

Plasmo's ST says that the bullets that are destructible with shot (but not shield) also count towards the counter. Destroying enemies and these bullets with Rose Cracker lowers the counter.

[trap15]

^ correct, missiles count as "small enemies". But they're not really bullets and you're not canceling them :p

[EmperorIng]

I've been playing on Veteran (or whatever that middle option is) and I get creamed by level 3. Maybe I should swallow my pride and go down to Normal. It's hard to quantify, but you can just feel the bullet density exponentially increase as you chip away at the game.

I haven't decided on a preferred sub-weapon. The lancer seems optimal for damage and speed (and that lock-on laser for the blue ship is good as well). The laser seems too slow to be useful.

[Shepardus]

^ correct, missiles count as "small enemies". But they're not really bullets and you're not canceling them :p

Still annoying to milk them on the stage 1 midboss every credit

I honestly kind of like Pink Sweets though that may just be because I haven't played it enough for the annoying parts to become really grating. I like that thanks to the Rose Cracker it manages to retain at least some degree of playability even at max rank. If anyone from Degica or CAVE is reading this, PC port please!

[marus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTaIct_7Y6g

I've run into this bug a few times before but this is the first time I've caught it on video. When playing as Mae with the Hyper Laser, sometimes in the first phase of the stage 2 boss your special weapon sprite will cover the enemy bullets. This only happens occasionally and I'm not sure how to reproduce it.

My PC specs are:
Windows 7 Professional 64-bit
Intel i7-4790K
MSI Geforce GTX-970
16GB RAM

[-S.L-]

Hello, first of all, sorry if what i will talk about below has already been talk about before (didn't read at all that topic)

I just got the game 2 days ago.

I really like the game, to me it has that feeling when I played Crimzon Clover (Doujin edition).
By that I mean it's a great game, but it really miss that extra thing to be a HIT.

I don't know if the developers of the game read this topic, but if they can ever have the same treatment as CC World Ignition, it would be fantastic, as to me the lack of HD makes it really hard to see what's going on screen. The pixel art is a great idea but not really optimized for our new generation screen, and I'm pretty sure that many players wouldn't even bother playing it because of that.

Some pattern are really harsh in colors compared to the background or even some elements of the decoration that fly around makes it really difficult to read properly. This is the downside of this game which I think is excellent !

So this game MUST be released on Nesica with a retouch (visual and gameplay), because it has a huge potential.

My two cents

[-S.L-]

double post !

I would like to mention the positive things of this game, as it's always easy to say the down parts, and probably would be nice to read for the developers:

* Firstly, thanx for actually making a VIDEO GAME, which has a real care for stage design, by that I mean it's not just one dark background put in loop, with a bunch of enemies attack out of nowhere just like any Danmaku for PC, this is why I do not play STG with such lazyness, this is important for me to have a bridge, a road, a river, something to remember in your route and add variety to the game (ok stage 3 and 5 are slightly loopy but still !)

* The music is very good, special mention for stage 3, 4 and boss music matches too. It's really not the type of music I like or would play (and therefor buy), but certainly the stuff I like in a video game !

* The scoring mechanic is excellent, simple and not stupidly too deep (hello ESPgaluda 2) it's very intuitive and most importantly: FUN. This is a fun game, that's what's matter after all.

* The overall feeling gives me the impression that the game is way beyond the average Doujin, there are a lot of thoughts behind it, yes it's not perfect, many things could be improved if it was in the hands of "professional" (like I mentioned earlier with CCWI)

So beside the game burns my eyes with it's graphics it's excellent, I haven't play anything for few months, so it's with fresh eyes I can look up this game. Well done.

When is the next one ?

[Oniros]

When is the next one ?

LMAO

Danbo said the team has moved on to a new project. Quality shmup releases are rare these days so treasure your time with the game!

[SuperSoaker360]

So far my only qualm with the game is that there's a lot of dead-air once you start memoing.

[Winane]

-The delay switching to focused movement speed makes sense when the player is holding just the regular fire button, for the sake of anyone using a controller with not quite enough buttons for full-auto.
But why is there a delay to slowing down the ship when the player is already holding the Rapid-Fire button when pressing Fire? I'm used to using that as sort of a brake pedal in danmaku STGs, but here that don't work too good.
I mean, responsiveness and tight control are pretty important in this genre, aren't they? Kinda like why I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in disliking the momentum often found in arena shmups.

Though I suppose the slowdown delay does help a bit to prevent the game from feeling too much like same old, same old. And most of the game does seem to be reasonably balanced around the delay. Plus, I expect folks like Grooktook probably love the way it encourages macrododging over micrododging.
Anyway, IIRC that kind of delay is the main reason I hardly ever play Hitogata Happa (despite loving most other aspects of that game), and I was almost ready to set this game aside as well, before discovering that somehow or other maybe it's really not so bad after all in this one.
(And by the time I got around to typing this up, I'd sorta reached the point of hoping you don't take my implicit suggestion to change it. Which is fortunate, given that I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have, anyway, right?)

-Would be good if the high score tables indicated which ship/shot/special types were used, and what stage reached.

-Would be really nice if Missions mode kept track of the player's highest score for each completed mission (either separately for A+ and non-A+, or only for full A+ clears, or no distinction between the two, whichever way).
That would help provide more to aim for, even after earning the top grade.
-Might be nice to do the same for stage select mode, as well. Could probably help for comparing scoring paths & armament selection options.

-Could you add some kind of audio cue when bosses/large enemies are about to die or reach a health bar divider, à la DonPachi or Touhou?

-I'd like an option to remember the previously used name when registering high scores (i.e., hit z once to confirm, or x to backspace to change it), rather than having to reinput the name every dang time.

-In the gallery, if you select the first picture, hit left to go to the last picture, then hit x to go back to the thumbnail gallery, the thumbnails don't appear and you're left with nothing but the background image.
(Or is that intentional, to let the user get an unobstructed view of the wallpaper?)

-With debug info on, what is the fraction that's displayed under the rank level?

-Yeah, I agree that the selection highlighting on the main select screen is a bit visually confusing.

-When using Val's cluster missiles, I often find myself reflexively trying to dodge my own shots from their explosions, since they look a bit too much like enemy bullets at a glance. Was that an intentional downside to using that weapon?

-Have you already considered enabling Hyper Laser battles during "Press" (à la DDP or Dariusburst)? (I'm not necessarily suggesting it should work that way, but I half expected it to when I first got there with laser equipped.)

-Is the slowdown during some of the regular last boss's attacks intentional, or is that just my computer not being up to the task?

-Is there any way to fight the TLB in stage practice mode? Would be nice if that's somehow unlockable.

-Isn't the player's hitbox a bit asymmetrical (1 pixel to the right of center, but 2 to the left, relative to the ships' sprites)?

-How about adding a "random select" option for each item in the soundtrack selection menu, to randomly choose between the unlocked BGMs for each section each time the game is played?
-Also, maybe randomized wallpaper?

-Would be kinda nice if controls could be modified just one button at a time. Slight nuisance to have to type in every single input just to change the pause button from 'esc' to 'space'.

-Upon completing a run in stage select mode, would probably make more sense to return to the stage select screen, rather than to the title screen.

-Why no dialogue with some of the bosses when playing as Val?

-Trivial, but in the tutorial: "machinegun" -> either "machine gun" or "machine-gun"

Spoiler

-Shouldn't it be "I'm calling in sick today"? (Also, seems like rather a brief ending for Val. :/ )

-"Well, what do you want from me!" <- missing a question mark.

-Doesn't the "Oof!" come in a little bit late, relative to the timing of the picture changes? Well, I guess it's okay, though.

-"from the bottom of our hearts" -> should be "bottoms", I think.

-(I was going to suggest in-house penetration testing as an alternate premise for playable Val, but I guess that wouldn't really work with her TLB.)

-What determines whether the player's ship gets blown up after beating the last boss?

Spoiler

-Rum = boy & Ale = girl, right?

-Is Mae the type of character to say "イシシシ!"?

-I think I want to marry Nayuki Yuzu's voice. <3

-Big thanks for Missions mode. I especially love the Experimental Weapon one, feels a bit reminiscent of playing Shoot the Bullet.

-Just in case it doesn't go without saying:
I wouldn't have bothered typing all this up if I didn't think this was a great game. =)