Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[FinalBaton]

nice haul!

The 1454Q is so pleasing to game on. Sharp with rich, balanced colors, and very thick scanlines (so : very thin blanked lines).

[atheistgod1999]

scanlines (so : very thin blanked lines).

I suggest we start using "unscanned lines" for that.

[Einzelherz]

scanlines (so : very thin blanked lines).

I suggest we start using "unscanned lines" for that.

Except for that they're blanked, hence blanked lines.

[Fudoh]

Question on the Pi2Jamma project linked above:

Is there any website with information on how the Pi generates the VGA signal and what additional hardware is neccessary to make use of the actual signal on the GPIO ports ?

[KnuckleheadFlow]

Question on the Pi2Jamma project linked above:

Is there any website with information on how the Pi generates the VGA signal and what additional hardware is neccessary to make use of the actual signal on the GPIO ports ?

Well there's the Gert VGA 666:
http://blog.queststem.com/post/10430765 ... dapter-666

https://github.com/fenlogic/vga666

[Blair]

here are a few shots I took experimenting with the eldest XRGB combined with a DVDO HD, on an old Dell U23 monitor.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

more images in high resolution at the gallery links below

Sega Genesis, no scanlines
https://imgur.com/a/JNFKa


Nintendo with scanlines
https://imgur.com/a/wJND3

[accaris]

here are a few shots I took experimenting with the eldest XRGB combined with a DVDO HD, on an old Dell U23

more images in high resolution at the gallery links below

Sega Genesis, no scanlines
https://imgur.com/a/JNFKa


Nintendo with scanlines
https://imgur.com/a/wJND3

What are you using for scanline generation?

[sanni]

Regarding the BVM 20F1E/U, did anyone ever try to combine the green and sync signals together so that the analog RGB input of the BKM-21D can be used too? Like here: https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/app- ... vp/id/4116 or here http://www.raphnet.net/electronique/syn ... een_en.php
Also does anyone have the service manual with the schematics (not the standard operation manual)?

Thanks

[Fudoh]

I've used a sync converter to get RGBHV or RGBs converted to RGsB, yes.

[Blair]

What are you using for scanline generation?

I'm using a retro VGA 2.0 SLG combined with an RGB interface (see images below) otherwise the driving signal from the XRGB is too bright for scanlines. however, I'm going to be ordering an R-VGA mini soon. (as the builder says he can add much higher resistance to the board) so that the RGB interface is unnecessary in the chain. I'm also using a VGA to RGBs adapter cable (active not passive). combining this with the DVDO HD's beautiful digital scaling (DVI-D out to the Dell u23) (with no ringing as far as I can tell) all at an extremely fast 6ms. great for an original hardware set up. (on this particular one I'm using a three system JP-21 switch, Saturn, Mega Drive, Famicom)

Spoiler

Spoiler

I also wanted to see if I could replicate those results with a WII running retroarch, I can get nearly identical results with RA's new line-double output mode. you also get much better controls over scanlines this way, here's a picture of RA-Wii (+ the DVDO HD) outputting with a scanline thickness of 0.8 (the scanlines are less harsh and remind me of a 600 line PVM, if you compare it to my original XRGB shot) (sorry, the color saturation is a bit higher than I meant it to be).

Spoiler

[sanni]

Ok, so my next question regarding the BVM 20F1E/U would be if I can use the BKM-21D's analog RGB input together with the Ext. Sync from the default input/output board located in slot 6.
That way I would only need a simple switch to select the correct sync signal from my two consoles, one console's RGB signals plugged into the default board and the other's into the 21D with both consoles' sync signals exclusively sharing the ext sync input from the default board.

[Fudoh]

yes, that works.

[accaris]

Anyone know anything about the DWin LD-2 line doubler? It's an ancient machine from 1996 but it accepts RGBS on 9-pin (maybe for throughput only?) and appears to output either component or RGB. Looks like maybe an old Faroudja-type line doubler?

@fudoh

[Fudoh]

never had one, sorry. There were already old when I got into the whole VP affair....

[ahaddow]

Hey everybody, new to the forums here but I have got the bug and am currently trying to hunt down a PVM or BVM.
I have done a bit of research so I think I have my head around most of the basics.

Thing is, I live in rural Japan. Anybody have experience hunting for P/BVMs out here? Or better yet, getting them repaired?
Yahoo Auctions seems to be very active and I've seen new units being posted almost every day, but they are almost entirely listed as "junk." Out here, that's a term used for second hand goods that are either not working at all and being sold for parts, or haven't really been tested properly yet.

Prices also seem to be all over the place. There is a PVM-D20L5J up for sale now for ab-F24U seout 20,000 yen (200 USD) with lines burnt in on either side of the screen, and some kanji characters burnt in as well. That seems outrageously high for a monitor with a screen that damaged.

There is a BVM-20F1J with the big currently sitting at 11 yen (11 cents), listed as junk with the unit apparently not being able to power on.

On the other end of the spectrum, there is a BVM-F24U selling for like 3000$ US.

This is all kind of discouraging. I will keep my eyes peeled I guess, but it's hard to know nowadays what is considered a "good" deal. I find that used goods in Japan are generally better cared for than in the West, but the units up now all seem to have serious defects and are still being listed at high prices.
I am really hoping I can find some old man with a garage who knows how to fix these things.
If I do find such an old man, what are some defects that can/can't be repaired easily?

Any info is helpful and I'm glad to have stumbled upon this board, you guys are all great.

[FinalBaton]

Hi and welcome

The good news is that living in Japan, you have other good CRT options aside from professional/broadcast monitors :
there are a bunch of high ends consumer 15kHz CRT tvs/computer monitors that are supposedly very, very nice and should match the performance of at least lower end PVMs. And those should cost you a good deal less than a high end PVM/BVM.

There's a poster who listed a couple of these on this thread a couple of pages back, I'll try to find it.

EDIT : found it. Check out Superdeadite's post in the thread below :
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... n#p1200670

There should be a bunch of good consumer CRT tvs with RGB inputs not far from you

[kamiboy]

Don't fall for the BVM/PVM hype. It seems that is the singular focus of every hopeful green horn. If I lived in Japan I'd get one of those 20" trisync pasocom monitors from the late 80's/early 90's. They are excellent and much more flexible than any BVM.

[Lawfer]

The focus on the 19" one is a little soft, and convergence needs a hint of work, but this is excellent geometry.

I am curious, I always see people talking about geometry, so I was wondering how do you know if your CRT has good geometry or not?

[accaris]

The focus on the 19" one is a little soft, and convergence needs a hint of work, but this is excellent geometry.

I am curious, I always see people talking about geometry, so I was wondering how do you know if your CRT has good geometry or not?

Are straight lines actually straight, or are they wavy, curved, or messed up? Is part of the screen cut off? (Left, right, top, or bottom?) Does the picture look tilted or rotated? Are objects slanted when they're supposed to be level?

Here's an example of a screen with messed up geometry.

[mikejmoffitt]

Honestly, that's pretty good as far as things go. A little service menu tweaking might even out the edges there. For mine, I am looking at
1) Vertical linearity; if this gets bad at the top, it can lead to vertical curl, and fixing via the menu is just temporary
2) Vertical lines remaining straight; a little even pincushioning can be fixed via the menu, but if it's irregular it can get a lot funkier to fix.
3) Horizontal lines remaining straight; a little curve as it approaches the horizontal blanking area happens sometimes, but it can get a lot worse.

Much of these problems can be due to aged capacitors, and a re-cap of the deflection section helps a lot.

[ahaddow]

Hi and welcome

The good news is that living in Japan, you have other good CRT options aside from professional/broadcast monitors :
there are a bunch of high ends consumer 15kHz CRT tvs/computer monitors that are supposedly very, very nice and should match the performance of at least lower end PVMs. And those should cost you a good deal less than a high end PVM/BVM.

There's a poster who listed a couple of these on this thread a couple of pages back, I'll try to find it.

EDIT : found it. Check out Superdeadite's post in the thread below :
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... n#p1200670

There should be a bunch of good consumer CRT tvs with RGB inputs not far from you

Thank you for the info and the general positive vibes!
I was looking into KV trinitrons as well but the Japanese model numbers are a bit all over the place, and there isn't as much information online as to which to look for unlike the P/BVMs.

There is one that looks decent selling now for 5000 yen, but no idea what it would cost to ship.
http://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/224939817
It's got AV Multi on the front, and two D-Terminals for component on the back.

For reference, I want to get a PS2 set up on it via component (although with the bulk of games running at 480i, maybe RGB? The 21pin cables are easy to get here), and a SNES/Super Fami set up (I own both).

Edit: For the PS2, is there any reason not to go with a solution like this? I was picturing having to get something to take the typical component leads coming out of the PS2 and changing it to D-Terminal... but looks like this would get around it. Or am I better off doing RGB out to the AV Multi on the front?

[bobrocks95]

Thank you for the info and the general positive vibes!
I was looking into KV trinitrons as well but the Japanese model numbers are a bit all over the place, and there isn't as much information online as to which to look for unlike the P/BVMs.

There is one that looks decent selling now for 5000 yen, but no idea what it would cost to ship.
http://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/224939817
It's got AV Multi on the front, and two D-Terminals for component on the back.

For reference, I want to get a PS2 set up on it via component (although with the bulk of games running at 480i, maybe RGB? The 21pin cables are easy to get here), and a SNES/Super Fami set up (I own both).

Edit: For the PS2, is there any reason not to go with a solution like this? I was picturing having to get something to take the typical component leads coming out of the PS2 and changing it to D-Terminal... but looks like this would get around it. Or am I better off doing RGB out to the AV Multi on the front?

That TV looks very similar to the KV-FV310 we have in the US, but of course we don't have D-Terminal ports and all that. Maybe the same chassis, but the design of it means it was definitely one of the higher-end Sony sets. If it's not an HD set I would grab it, but I really doubt you'd find someone willing to ship it to you.

On the PS2 there was some talk on here about RGB being cleaner than component, but I might have that flipped around. I don't think D-Terminal has been extensively tested, but maybe if there's some Japanese forums you can look at for info you might find something?

[FinalBaton]

Another thing to consider with the PS2 is that in RGB mode, 480p games will output in RGsB(Sync on green).
You might need a device that will convert the sync type so that the TV will accept it.

[bobrocks95]

Another thing to consider with the PS2 is that in RGB mode, 480p games will output in RGsB(Sync on green).
You might need a device that will convert the sync type so that the TV will accept it.

Well if it's a 15kHz set that's not really an issue. And 31kHz Sonys have lag if that's a consideration, so those may want to be avoided. It's something to keep in mind though, yeah.

[ahaddow]

That TV looks very similar to the KV-FV310 we have in the US, but of course we don't have D-Terminal ports and all that. Maybe the same chassis, but the design of it means it was definitely one of the higher-end Sony sets. If it's not an HD set I would grab it, but I really doubt you'd find someone willing to ship it to you.

On the PS2 there was some talk on here about RGB being cleaner than component, but I might have that flipped around. I don't think D-Terminal has been extensively tested, but maybe if there's some Japanese forums you can look at for info you might find something?

In comparisons I've seen Component and RGB look VERY similar coming out of a PS2. RGB might give me better results when playing PS1 games on it though. Never seen comparisons between D-terminal and Component, if there is any at all.

Regards to shipping, it would cost me just over 6000 yen to ship it. I live out in Nagasaki and haven't seen anything for sale out here at all.
So, the set would essentially cost me about 110$. Since most of the P/BVMs I've seen in decent condition are selling for 200$ without shipping, this deal seems...okay?

Another thing to consider with the PS2 is that in RGB mode, 480p games will output in RGsB(Sync on green).
You might need a device that will convert the sync type so that the TV will accept it.

This is definitely true yeah. This set only supports up to 480i with the D1 interface though.

[FinalBaton]

Another thing to consider with the PS2 is that in RGB mode, 480p games will output in RGsB(Sync on green).
You might need a device that will convert the sync type so that the TV will accept it.

Well if it's a 15kHz set that's not really an issue. And 31kHz Sonys have lag if that's a consideration, so those may want to be avoided. It's something to keep in mind though, yeah.

Doh! don't know what I was thinking there

[Ikaruga11]

Never seen comparisons between D-terminal and Component, if there is any at all.

Same YPbPr signal. Just different physical connectors.

[ahaddow]

There is also this set going for a little bit cheaper. This one was made in 2003, again is only 15khz, has the same inputs, and would maybe bump me down into the cheaper shipping class for about 40$ instead of 60$.

We are probably talking about 80-90$ depending on how the auction goes for the 21" model, vs about 110-120$ for the 25".

[bobrocks95]

Never seen comparisons between D-terminal and Component, if there is any at all.

Same YPbPr signal. Just different physical connectors.

Oh yeah, forgot that detail. D-Terminal is Japan's component video for all intents and purposes (though I think there are differences in max resolution?).

Anyway, Fudoh is the one I've seen mention the PS2's RGB vs. component. One is a bit cleaner than the other- it's likely not a big deal regardless.

[Ikaruga11]

YPbPr on the PS2 is noticably less saturated than RGsB on the PS2. Apparently its not quite as sharp either.