The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

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Sumez
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Sumez »

When you live in Europe and have a crapton of PAL MegaDrive titles, you do actually, yeah. :P
I do share your experience, though, and always played my PAL titles in 60hz without any noticeable issue. I didn't know about the software check to adjust music timing, which explains why I thought the audio timing was independent on 50/60hz.
Is it wrong to assume that SNES handles this issue entirely by hardware (I'd assume the code just loads the entire track into memory and tells the console to initialize it, but I don't know anything about SNES hardware)? The earliest example I recall of this was then Final Fantasy 6 (III) came out and the opera would desync when playing the game here in Europe, with the music ending long before the scene. At the time I knew nothing about the 50hz issue, obviously, but I doubt Square's programmers included a check that would speed up the music on a PAL console.

It's funny though considering how many developers went all in trying to optimize their gameplay for 50hz releases on the NES from the late 80s on. Notable examples would be Tecmo, Taito, Natsume, SunSoft and of course Nintendo who did it for practically every game they released after Zelda 1. Curiously, Giants like Capcom and Konami rarely cared at all, but you would imagine that there would be a ton of developers who wanted to continue this trend on MegaDrive as well? Maybe most had just decided that it's not worth the effort at this point?
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by soprano1 »

Sumez wrote:When you live in Europe and have a crapton of PAL MegaDrive titles, you do actually, yeah. :P
I do share your experience, though, and always played my PAL titles in 60hz without any noticeable issue. I didn't know about the software check to adjust music timing, which explains why I thought the audio timing was independent on 50/60hz.
Is it wrong to assume that SNES handles this issue entirely by hardware (I'd assume the code just loads the entire track into memory and tells the console to initialize it, but I don't know anything about SNES hardware)? The earliest example I recall of this was then Final Fantasy 6 (III) came out and the opera would desync when playing the game here in Europe, with the music ending long before the scene. At the time I knew nothing about the 50hz issue, obviously, but I doubt Square's programmers included a check that would speed up the music on a PAL console.

It's funny though considering how many developers went all in trying to optimize their gameplay for 50hz releases on the NES from the late 80s on. Notable examples would be Tecmo, Taito, Natsume, SunSoft and of course Nintendo who did it for practically every game they released after Zelda 1. Curiously, Giants like Capcom and Konami rarely cared at all, but you would imagine that there would be a ton of developers who wanted to continue this trend on MegaDrive as well? Maybe most had just decided that it's not worth the effort at this point?
It's not surprising on the SNES, since in Europe the Mega Drive was king. The Master System as well, for that matter, but that was Nintendo not giving a damn.
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Sumez »

Huh? You seem to have gotten things reversed. It was Nintendo who cared about the European releases, and optimized both gameplay and music on all of their European releases bar the very earliest ones.

Of course, in hindsight that's not too cool for people like us who care about playing the original game, and want the versions optimized for original 60hz play, but it does show that they cared about the games they put out in PAL territories. After all, most people at the time didn't own NTSC consoles or mods for 60hz.

The Sonic games, despite being focused on speed, were allowed to run 16% slower on PAL machines, but I guess Sega could be worried about potential bugs, considering the complex inertia based controls in those games. Super Metroid has a pretty famous one in PAL, where it's possible to make it across the fast closing gate early in the game and sequence break by getting an early super bomb. On NTSC this requires pulling off an awesome mockball, which is a different glitch altogether. :P
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by soprano1 »

Sumez, that is true, but i was talking about Nintendo's lack of popularity in Europe during the time. I never met anyone who had a NES or a SNES, everyone had either a Sega console or a computer to play games.
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Sumez »

I think that must be a more regional thing... While both the MegaDrive and Master System were pretty popular here (and I hear the SMS wasn't too popular in USA), it's my impression that Sega was definitely bigger in the UK than anywhere else. People who had a NES as a kid far outnumber the ones who grew up with a Master System where I'm from. I do recall a more even split between SNES and SMD, but going but what you'd see on store shelves, magazine coverage etc. SNES definitely had the upper hand as well.

Even then, I'm still not sure I get the point. How would the MegaDrive being bigger in Europe explain why practically none of the games (I'm making an assumption there, though) were coded to fit better with 50hz timing on PAL releases?
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Heavy Viper »

Sumez wrote:When you live in Europe and have a crapton of PAL MegaDrive titles, you do actually, yeah. :P
Hehe, yeah, that last comment was meant ironically more than anything. Australia had it just as bad, possibly worse if you consider the quality of Sega Ozisoft's printed materials...

I don't know much about the 50/60 situation with the SNES, mainly because the region mod requires one to lift and solder to two very small, very fragile pins on an IC, which I'm not too confident about doing. The NTSC games I've played via an Action Replay - Earthbound in particular - have the same issues you described with FF6. Music plays fine, but the gameplay lags behind/de-syncs during events.

The road to companies acknowledging the plight of 50hz audiences seems to have been a slow and inconsistent one. We didn't start seeing satisfying solutions to the problem until the Dreamcast and PS2 (e.g. 60hz mode selectable at start-up). The Saturn and Playstation had some decent optimization going on before that, but even then it was mainly limited to games where it made an obvious difference, like racing games. I guess it really came down to whether one could easily get away with just fixing the music in a game with a slower pace, like an RPG or a platformer.

Weird to hear Konami didn't do much optimization for their PAL NES stuff, since their Mega Drive output was pretty high quality! They also seem to have had the most amusingly blunt region check on the MD: try to load up PAL Rocket Knight Adventures or Tiny Toons on an NTSC MD? Hope you like staring at the Konami logo in silence!
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Sumez »

What are you thinking about when you're calling it "high quality"?

All things considered, the PAL "desecration" of NES Contra that is Probotector is actually really well done. The robots are awesome, the new sprites fit the game, and the box art frankly kicks ass. So you'd assume they put a lot of effort into this localization. Curiously though, they didn't even bother speeding up the music (as they would on most later releases), and obviously no parts of the gameplay either. So the best way to experience Probotector is actually on a NTSC console...
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Heavy Viper »

Well in general, I reckon Konami's Mega Drive output is some of the best the console has to offer. The PAL releases suffered the usual drawbacks, though (letterboxing, slightly lower speed), so I guess it was me having opinions. :S
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by BrianC »

I wouldn't consider the Probotector version of HC or Castlevania New Generation to be high quality since, from what I heard, they are stuck in 50 Hz and heavily censored.

As far Konami NES games, I read the PALCOM releases were done well? There were also some games that came to Europe that didn't come to US like Road Fighter, Crackout, and Parodius.
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Heavy Viper »

The censorship and character redesigns are issues, of course, but as mentioned earlier, the region checks are easily bypassed with a cheat device or jumper cart. Konami's PAL offerings play just fine at 60hz, for what it's worth.
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by neorichieb1971 »

Thanks for the reassurances that my games will work.

I'm waiting for that winter rainy day to get all the stuff out. I lived in the USA for 6 years (procured Musha at the time) and have a bunch of Genesis titles. But the other day I went to the Insomnia show in Birmingham and saw a retro shop in the corner. All the stuff was PAL except Genesis and Megadrive games were mixed. Since coming back from the show I thought "screw it, lets get some cheapo UK megadrive games" and then laid down £24 for Chiki Chiki boys :lol:

I bought Sonic 1 and 2, 2 months ago just for the artwork. I think I read in this thread anything 1993 onwards is not cross compatible.

I think Gauntlet iv is the latest title I have, but its a Genesis title.

Hopefully when I get all this stuff out to play it will all work like you say.
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by BrianC »

I tried Crackout via emulator and it definitely seems to be PAL optimized. It runs closer to the speed of the JP FDS version in PAL mode, but runs too fast in NTSC. The odd thing is there was a US prototype from PALCOM, who never published a NTSC Konami game. The proto seems to be identical to the PAL version and runs too fast in NTSC compared to the JP FDS version. I'm also under the impression that Parodius is PAL optimized since it doesn't display correctly on NTSC TVs (the power up bar is cut off).
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by MR_Soren »

Is anybody able to read this:

http://news.denfaminicogamer.jp/megadrivecx/kibe3

It allegedly contains something about SEGA releasing new Mega Drive games in 2018. Sounded like there might be a dev kit and a process where hobbyists can release officially licensed games manufactured by SEGA?

Sounds too good to be true. Probably is.
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by JBC »

That's my dream! I just tweeted about that not long ago!

Tweet

I really hope it's a real thing. I never understood why they would fully discontinue any system when so many people would still be interested in a new title here or there.
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by neorichieb1971 »

I tried Chiki Chiki boys (PAL) on my Genesis and it worked great.

Tried Gauntlet IV and it didn't work, cleaned it, it eventually worked for 20 mins and then froze. So I am going to sacrifice a cartridge to rob and provide a donor for Gauntlet IV. Which is a Tengen cart which suffers from the oxidization on the trace lines.

There are 2 youtubes on this subject in case anyone cares.

Tengen bad carts/providing a donor PCB - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoYOfdjrC6I
And the guy who baked his Gauntlet IV - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wT3vq_EUgs
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by BrianC »

neorichieb1971 wrote: Tried Gauntlet IV and it didn't work, cleaned it, it eventually worked for 20 mins and then froze. So I am going to sacrifice a cartridge to rob and provide a donor for Gauntlet IV. Which is a Tengen cart which suffers from the oxidization on the trace lines.
My Gauntlet IV works, but I had a similar issue when I first bought the cart before I traded it in for another one (and it apparently worked correctly after it was tested later). So gald I can play it on Everdrive now, though.
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by GSK »

MR_Soren wrote:Is anybody able to read this:

http://news.denfaminicogamer.jp/megadrivecx/kibe3

It allegedly contains something about SEGA releasing new Mega Drive games in 2018. Sounded like there might be a dev kit and a process where hobbyists can release officially licensed games manufactured by SEGA?

Sounds too good to be true. Probably is.
The guy in the interview is a staff writer for Game Center CX and a self-confessed Sega fanboy who's been talking semi-seriously about making a GCCX game for MD, so he's been interviewing relevant people about the feasibility of making a new MD game--the last interview was with Yuji Naka, for example, and this interview is with the producer behind Sega 3D Classics and other legacy re-releases. (They'll probably talk to M2 next.)

I've only skimmed this interview but it seems the producer confirmed there's no way to officially license a new MD game in 2018 but that doesn't necessarily mean it can't happen.
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by MR_Soren »

GSK wrote:
MR_Soren wrote:Is anybody able to read this:

http://news.denfaminicogamer.jp/megadrivecx/kibe3

It allegedly contains something about SEGA releasing new Mega Drive games in 2018. Sounded like there might be a dev kit and a process where hobbyists can release officially licensed games manufactured by SEGA?

Sounds too good to be true. Probably is.
The guy in the interview is a staff writer for Game Center CX and a self-confessed Sega fanboy who's been talking semi-seriously about making a GCCX game for MD, so he's been interviewing relevant people about the feasibility of making a new MD game--the last interview was with Yuji Naka, for example, and this interview is with the producer behind Sega 3D Classics and other legacy re-releases. (They'll probably talk to M2 next.)

I've only skimmed this interview but it seems the producer confirmed there's no way to officially license a new MD game in 2018 but that doesn't necessarily mean it can't happen.

Thank you. I figured it was something like that. I hope they make a Mega Drive Game Center CX anyway, preferably multi-lingual. I have the first one for Nintendo DS and loved it. Was a shame the second never got localized.
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by blackoak »

couple MD interviews i recently translated that i think you'll all appreciate ;)

Ex-Ranza - http://shmuplations.com/rangerx
Alisia Dragoon - http://shmuplations.com/alisiadragoon

...I only wish they had been longer!
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by FinalBaton »

That was awesome, thanks so much for doing this :D
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Xyga »

Indeed ! Very interesting, triple thanks oak.
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by soprano1 »

blackoak wrote:couple MD interviews i recently translated that i think you'll all appreciate ;)

Ex-Ranza - http://shmuplations.com/rangerx
Alisia Dragoon - http://shmuplations.com/alisiadragoon

...I only wish they had been longer!
Nice, thanks for those.
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by BIL »

Saved these for when I had a sec to enjoy them. Superbly readable work as always! Even in briefer features, it's always a pleasure to glimpse these devs in their heyday. As an aside, I do love seeing if any pet suspicions/theories resonate at all, haha.

I've always been a little critical of Alisia Dragoon's slightly clunky controls... but it's not out of any snark when I say I'm unsurprised to hear it developed from a mecha context, before taking its magical girl direction. Despite the fanciful aesthetic, you've got to methodically approach Hard mode like the most mechanistic of tactical sidescrolling, or get shot to bits. Interesting to see them mention Gradius; it was always R-Type's "Bit" modules that its familiars brought to my mind, specifically the fire wisp's knack for blocking+clobbering stuff on your six.

Ex-Ranza is such a craftsman's action game. Even if it didn't play quite so phenomenally, I'd still be compelled to have it around just for its attention to detail, and Gau's unmistakable determination to create a mecha sidescroller entirely their own. Toshio Toyota always seems incredibly cool, just going by Granada and Ranza along with his commentaries on classic arcade stuff like Grobda. Loved the "Hobbies: Explosions." :mrgreen: Not surprised to see high-performance machinery was a real-life interest of the graphic designer; Ranza showcases some impressive and lovingly-rendered gear.

I'd totally forgotten Noriyuki Iwadare had worked on Ranza - odd coincidence given he went on to work with Game Arts on Granada. :smile:
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by evil_ash_xero »

I just started playing Twinkle Tale.

The graphics are little grainy, but I can see why people dig this game. I thought maybe it was just one of those imports that I wouldn't get, but it's a blast.

I think it's actually better than Pocky and Rocky, despite PaR having much better graphics.
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Post by Xyga »

^ Twinkle Tale is just more fun, better designed. Really good music also.
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by BrianC »

evil_ash_xero wrote: The graphics are little grainy, but I can see why people dig this game. I thought maybe it was just one of those imports that I wouldn't get, but it's a blast.

I think it's actually better than Pocky and Rocky, despite PaR having much better graphics.
I like what I played of it quite a bit. There's a color hack that helps quite a bit by making the graphics a bit more vibrant, though the graininess is still there. The color hack can also be applied with the translation hack, which is a huge plus. Is it ok to link to IPS patches? I'm a bit hesitant because a site with a bunch of hacks had a hack to turn Super Mario Advance 4 into the WiiU VC version, though that was since taken down.
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Skykid »

Woah folks, hold up a second.

Twinkle Tale is rad. It's a breakneck paced 90s fantasy-themed top-down RnG par excellence. It's like Elemental Master's precocious little sister, besting big brother with surprising stage variety and the satisfying speed of its action and TFIII-ish weapon system.

BUT, better designed than Pocky&Rocky/Kikikaikai? Natsume's SFC tutorial in game design that showed all the pretenders how to form action games?

Kiki is much harder than Twinkle Tale, and I'm still having trouble with the Dracula boss hindering my 1cc attempts - but that game is a showcase of talent. Graphically beautiful, cute as a button, absolutely deadly and determined that you work for your rewards. But it's so beautifully rendered and designed, I'm not sure I can declare Twinkle Tale as superior; I'd prefer to call it an equal in the genre. The Mega Drive's answer to Kiki, if you will.

Seriously though, don't favour TT because it's lenient and write off Kiki cos it hands your ass to you. Git Gud at it and it really shows off its magic.
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by evil_ash_xero »

Xyga wrote:^ Twinkle Tale is just more fun, better designed. Really good music also.
I do think the stages are a bit more interesting, and varied. And the music is definitely more lively, and catchy.
BrianC wrote: I like what I played of it quite a bit. There's a color hack that helps quite a bit by making the graphics a bit more vibrant, though the graininess is still there. The color hack can also be applied with the translation hack, which is a huge plus. Is it ok to link to IPS patches? I'm a bit hesitant because a site with a bunch of hacks had a hack to turn Super Mario Advance 4 into the WiiU VC version, though that was since taken down.
I did a quick search for it, and found a rom that was patched, and had the English patch as well. This color patch is called "Twinkle Tale - Alternate Style Released By Pyron", correct? I'm going to delve into this tonight. I noticed that it's brighter, and on the first stage the rocks are more of a bright brown, than a dingy one. I love patches like this.
Skykid wrote:Git Gud at it and it really shows off its magic.
I'm not sure which one I like better. They're both really good though.
I will admit that Twinkle Tale's more lenient difficulty does make me more likely to play it. But I do think Twinkle definitely has better music.
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Skykid »

evil_ash_xero wrote: I'm not sure which one I like better. They're both really good though.
I will admit that Twinkle Tale's more lenient difficulty does make me more likely to play it. But I do think Twinkle definitely has better music.
Both games have walls, and Twinkle's is on the shmup stage incidentally, very late in the game. Kiki just has a learning curve that requires you to figure out your weapon of choice per stage or half stage, which is fairly trivial. Once you get that down it's just about learning the stages and making use of your moveset - dive and shield are both indispensable and give you a big advantage. At the end of every stage your life is maxed out and you gain a stock - and there are a couple of extends in there too (the first hidden on the first stage).

Kiki bomb is super powerful, but the stock isn't reset at death, so you need to be super pragmatic and learn all the early stages without needing to use it. When you get to the last three stages you start to get pushed a little: the flying battleship is much tougher than the stage boss to survive, the castle has a ton of traps and boulder tunnel sections that will chip away your life, and the aforementioned Dracula is a dick enough that you NEED to have stockpiled bombs by that point.

Twinkle's shmup stage will fuck you though. Even if it's fairly plain sailing until that point, it takes learning and will catch you out if you're underpowered. The boss is a bit of a punk too. I think the last stage may actually be marginally easier.

Anyway, credit where it's due, both games are premium grade. Just don't write off Kiki as being anything less than fantastic; it's a really high class piece of work.
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Re: The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

Post by Xyga »

Certainly Kiki is the better game gameplay~challenge wise, but what I meant is that IMHO it's a notch behind in terms of being consistently enjoyable on the whole run.
I mean it's been many years since I've played these games but I have better memories with TT compared to Kiki which I remember having long~ish tedious parts.

Maybe it's the pacing and variety, the better music and more focused art style (kiki is more 'mashup' in this area) that made me like TT more, who knows, this community has quite a few people hammering a game's value amounts to the gameplay-challenge part of its design on top of everything else, which I don't agree with since I believe the formula of a good game is much more than that and a thing of greatly variable 'geometry'.
(also nb; when I write 'design' I mean the whole thing, the entirety of what makes the game, I know I'm the minority and that it sounds weird/wrong :p)

In any case yeah it's true both games are pretty good, each with its own + & -, but would they be graded in old style review form both marks would be quite high.

Needless to say again but I'm pissed off at the going godverdomme prices, since they're both games I'd like to have in my collection. :?
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