Entering the world of progressive scan in the 6th generation

[tacoguy64]

What about games that only run 480i 15khz? How do those games work on a pc monitor? I actually haven't tried myself but what would a trans coder do for a situation like that? I think there were many games in the PS2 library that couldn't do 480p. Most DC games i've played with are fine. I had the Wii games played through Wii U worked good for me as well. Haven't tried xbox yet but I think most its library supports 480p. With that in mind, a transcoder like the GARO could work good with a pc crt for those 3 systems. Though you will need a vga box for the DC itself. The system looks best when displayed through vga.

And yeah, the OSSC paired with a PC monitor for 6th gen games should give the best results in terms of picture quality. I cant wait to find out for myself. Well i guess I will be waiting long seeing how slow these things are moving

[FinalBaton]

I think there were many games in the PS2 library that couldn't do 480p.

Many indeed! Like, 90%

[tacoguy64]

Yeah, just recently discovered that myself. PS2 gaming on a pc crt might be out of the question. Unless you get an upscaler like the WAKA which works really nice on VGA sources.

[Ikaruga11]

BVM/PVM or a high-end HD CRT is your best bet for 6th Generation content.

[FinalBaton]

Indeed. But maybe the OP won't want to play on a small bvm. Or have a huge BVM/NEC/Mitsubishi multisync or consumer HD CRT at home. We'll see

[FinalBaton]

OP, do you mind dropping by and telling us what you think?

[tacoguy64]

Indeed. But maybe the OP won't want to play on a small bvm. Or have a huge BVM/NEC/Mitsubishi multisync or consumer HD CRT at home. We'll see

Don't forget these larger monitors are very heavy and bulky. While they are unsurpassed in picture quality they do have their downsides. I of course would never give mine up but i'm a little bit crazy . If I was sane, i'd stick to a nice HDTV and call it good for 6th gen systems.

[FinalBaton]

I of course would never give mine up but i'm a little bit crazy

same

I'm lucky to have a girlfriend who's into retro gaming as well. The NEC XM37 Plus is in the living room

Dreamcast looks jaw dropping on it, as you know. truly produces an out-of-this-world picture for 480p, doesn't it?

[tacoguy64]

I of course would never give mine up but i'm a little bit crazy

same

I'm lucky to have a girlfriend who's into retro gaming as well. The NEC XM37 Plus is in the living room

Dreamcast looks jaw dropping on it, as you know. truly produces an out-of-this-world picture for 480p, doesn't it?

Oh yes, the DC looks amazing. Though I honestly haven't tried any other 480p consoles since the monitor doesnt take component inputs. I have been meaning to buy the GARO just for that reason. With multi-sync there is no need to worry about 480i and 480p.

The OP will have several options to go with. All options have pros and cons to them and it will be up to him to decide what to go with.

[FinalBaton]

Oh yes, the DC looks amazing. Though I honestly haven't tried any other 480p consoles since the monitor doesnt take component inputs. I have been meaning to buy the GARO just for that reason.

you could try your ps2's 480p signal through RGsB. The NEC accepts SOG.

[BazookaBen]

What about games that only run 480i 15khz? How do those games work on a pc monitor?

thankfully, for PS2, you have a solution in GS Mode Selector. You simply select 640x960i mode, which has 31khz horizontal refresh like 480p, and it solves compatibility problems for basically every game, while giving equivalent picture quality to a 480i set. One example is FF12; it can't be forced to progressive mode, but it looks fantastic at 960i on a PC CRT.

Not to mention, more games are 480p compatible than you think with GS Mode Selector. Gradius V and the Contra games can be forced to 480p and look amazing. And if they work in 480p, they can also be output to letterboxed 960p in 1280x1024 mode, giving superior PQ on PC CRT's and some 5:4 flat panels.

As for the other systems, most games worth playing support 480p. I only know of one decent game on GCN that is 480i-only (I think), which is Killer 7. So for that you need either the OSSC or some other solution.

just curious : have you mesured the lag in this mode? and if not, how much do you estimate there is?

480p on Sony Hi-Scan tubes has different latency in the different "zoom" modes. In 4:3 mode, I couldn't perceive any lag, so I'm guessing it's a frame or less. In 16:9 "full" mode, I'm guessing it's around 3. These are totally unscientific guesses though.

[Einzelherz]

Do you not have the test suite to examine lag with? If a Hi Scan does 480p with low lag they'll become invaluable.

[Ikaruga11]

Do you not have the test suite to examine lag with? If a Hi Scan does 480p with low lag they'll become invaluable.

I did the manual lag test on my XBR960 and hit 0 frames every time. A while back I had my Wii output to my Sony KV-27FS120 and Sony KD-XBR960 at the same time, and I believe the discrepancy was less than 1 frame. This was performed before my calibration, so HDPT may have still been active.

[BazookaBen]

HDPT only effects 1080i/540p.

I'm not a fan of the lag test in the 240p test suite, it's pretty unscientific. My guess is based on playing Wipeout Pulse on PS2 for a couple months on a 15khz CRT before I started playing it in progressive scan on the Hi-Scan tube. I noticed input latency right away in 16:9 mode, and significantly less 4:3 mode.

... though it did just occur to me that the 16:9 latency could have been from the Wipeout game engine and not the TV. I did beat the hardest levels in Super Mario Galaxy 2 on the Hi-Scan tube in 16:9.

All that said, there is absolutely significant latency running 720p to the set, resulting from the downscale to 1080i. Noticed within seconds after playing Battlefield 4 in 540p vs 720p on the set.

[Mantis128]

Indeed. But maybe the OP won't want to play on a small bvm. Or have a huge BVM/NEC/Mitsubishi multisync or consumer HD CRT at home. We'll see

I like my displays the same way I like almost everything else, big. However I also like a good size to quality ratio and I would be happy to play on a 14 inch PVM or BVM over a 30 inch consumer EDTV if it had a truly stunning picture. Though it would be a hold over until I could find/afford something like an XM29/37 or big BVM.

[Gunstar]

What about games that only run 480i 15khz? How do those games work on a pc monitor?

thankfully, for PS2, you have a solution in GS Mode Selector. You simply select 640x960i mode, which has 31khz horizontal refresh like 480p, and it solves compatibility problems for basically every game, while giving equivalent picture quality to a 480i set. One example is FF12; it can't be forced to progressive mode, but it looks fantastic at 960i on a PC CRT.

Not to mention, more games are 480p compatible than you think with GS Mode Selector. Gradius V and the Contra games can be forced to 480p and look amazing. And if they work in 480p, they can also be output to letterboxed 960p in 1280x1024 mode, giving superior PQ on PC CRT's and some 5:4 flat panels.

As for the other systems, most games worth playing support 480p. I only know of one decent game on GCN that is 480i-only (I think), which is Killer 7. So for that you need either the OSSC or some other solution.

just curious : have you mesured the lag in this mode? and if not, how much do you estimate there is?

480p on Sony Hi-Scan tubes has different latency in the different "zoom" modes. In 4:3 mode, I couldn't perceive any lag, so I'm guessing it's a frame or less. In 16:9 "full" mode, I'm guessing it's around 3. These are totally unscientific guesses though.

I just tried vga 640x960i mode and it's a bit finicky, my PC CRT screen would show severe flickering like there's two images but on two occasions it seemed to have synch'd and given me a stable picture. What are you Extron settings, assuming that you're piping the ps2 through to it to get RGBHV?

Apparently the NTSC version of Killer 7 can be forced into 480p! I need to buy a copy to replace my PAL version now..

[BazookaBen]

I just tried vga 640x960i mode and it's a bit finicky, my PC CRT screen would show severe flickering like there's two images but on two occasions it seemed to have synch'd and given me a stable picture. What are you Extron settings, assuming that you're piping the ps2 through to it to get RGBHV?

I just connect the PS2 directly to my monitor, since all of my PC CRT's support RGsB. Have you tried that yet? What brand is your monitor?

[Gunstar]

Ah that's awesome it supports RGsB!

I have an IBM p275 and a Mitsu Diamondtron 750sb, right now they're hooked up via the Extron 203 to spit out RGBHV.

[BazookaBen]

Here's an old database of sync on green monitors: http://ps-2.kev009.com/sog/

Looks like others in that IBM series support RGsB, the Mitsubishi may or may not, you'll have to test it. I know my Diamondtron-based LaCie monitor supports RGsB.

[BONKERS]

I've had HDTVs that scale 480p very poor.

Personally i'd go with a CRT that can take 31khz. Whether it's a PC CRT, a medium res arcade monitor, an HDCRT or broadcast monitor.
I personally enjoy the look of a PC CRT for 480p.

[Gunstar]

Here's an old database of sync on green monitors: http://ps-2.kev009.com/sog/

Looks like others in that IBM series support RGsB, the Mitsubishi may or may not, you'll have to test it. I know my Diamondtron-based LaCie monitor supports RGsB.

IBM supports RGsB! Also figured out how to make it work with the Extron, needed the dsp on. There's some slight flickering but I checked it against a BVM at 480i which produces any amazing interlaced picture and the flicker is fairly similar. It seems there was some scailing artifacts though, turning on scanlines seemed to look correct, I'm guessing because the game (Sky Odyssey) uses field rendering (640x240)?

[BazookaBen]

. It seems there was some scailing artifacts though, turning on scanlines seemed to look correct, I'm guessing because the game (Sky Odyssey) uses field rendering (640x240)?

Oh, crap, for some reason I thought 960i was a work around for that problem. It's been a while since I've tried it. I remember Rez and VF4 Evolution had the low-res issue when trying to force 480p.