Entering the world of progressive scan in the 6th generation

[Mantis128]

Over the last few months I've been researching how to get optimal picture out of game consoles. While I feel like I have enough info on what the best options are for 240/288P and 480/576i, I'm still a bit in the dark as to what the best option is for the 6th gen systems progressive mode.

Basically what I'm looking for is a display that will display these games in 4:3 without giving an over processed image and little to no lag.

A semi educated guess on what my options are.

A normal HDTV.
Most modern TV's have component and VGA inputs and 480 on a modern TV looks pretty good, however these TV's over process the image bringing out flaws that shouldn't be seen.

An old CRT PC monitor.
I'm guessing this is a good option for the Dreamcast, however I've never heard of these things having component inputs.

A HDCRT
I'm guessing this would be no better than a modern flat screen.

An analog CRT that has a native resolution of 480/576P.
I'm guessing this would be a great choice but I don't even know if such a thing exists.

A RGB monitor with a native resolution of 480/576P
I've heard these are good but I'm not sure what the best choices are.

An analog HD RGB monitor like the D32E1WU.
I'm guessing this is the best option, however I'm guessing they're rare/expensive. Would also be good for the Wii.

[Fudoh]

CRTs with 31khz capability will give you the best picture quality, but if size (and convenience) matters, then you're fine with a big LCD.

VGA is a rarity on modern TVs though, but that's not really a problem, since transcoders and HDMI converters are available. If you to have better upscaling than your TV offers, then upscalers are available at reasonable prices.

[kamiboy]

Any PVM or BVM that can handle 31khz is the best option. I tried PC CRT's once long ago, I was not thrilled by the results.

[PascalP]

CRTs with 31khz capability will give you the best picture quality, but if size (and convenience) matters, then you're fine with a big LCD.

VGA is a rarity on modern TVs though, but that's not really a problem, since transcoders and HDMI converters are available. If you to have better upscaling than your TV offers, then upscalers are available at reasonable prices.

Or go for a Pioneer PDP-V402 if size matters

[bobrocks95]

Was the PDP-V402 even released in America? I've never seen a hint of one.

[FinalBaton]

most 1080p LCDs upscale 480p very well it seems. At least that seems like the consensus. I tried plugging my Dreamcast in a couple ones from different brand and it looked great each time.

Don't know were you live but here in North America, good luck finding an Enhanced Definition consumer CRT. They are pretty much non-existant.
Sony made the switch from 480i directly to 1080i here. And the other manufacturers followed.

If you want a big screen then you'll be perfectly fine with a 1080p LCD. Of course the big multisync CRTs give a phenomenal picture! it really, really is a sight to behold. but they're hard to come by and can cost quite a lot. Plus they take up a lot of space. Plugging straight into a big LCD gives honestly a really satisfying picture (if your set doesn't upscale 480p well then get a DVDO machine. But chances are it will look great when plugged straight into the TV).

If you're hell bent on using a crt than a PC CRT monitor is really nice. Whether a later one or an older one. Aside from the prized ones like the Sony GDM-FW900 and other GDM models, you can try to find a LaCie Electron Blue locally. Those go for cheap and they're really good. They were good enough for doing demanding professional color work for the movie/tv business as well as videogames back then. These of course work great for 240p stuff as well with a linedoubler.

Of course with this last option you'll be gaming on a small screen, wich is something to consider also.

[Ikaruga11]

most 1080p LCDs upscale 480p very well it seems. At least that seems like the consensus. I tried plugging my Dreamcast in a couple ones from different brand and it looked great each time.

Even if a 1080p HDTV (LCD, Plasma, OLED, it doesn't matter) has a great upscaler, you're still dealing with non-integer scaling from 480p, which compromises image quality. 1080 does not divide evenly into 480. There also the issue of analog-to-digital conversion. On top of that, there's digital post-processing to deal with that distorts the integrity of the picture, while adding input lag. And non-CRTs typically have inferior black levels, color gamut, contrast and handling of motion blur and ghosting.

Don't know were you live but here in North America, good luck finding an Enhanced Definition consumer CRT. They are pretty much non-existant.
Sony made the switch from 480i directly to 1080i here. And the other manufacturers followed.

That's exactly why ED CRTs don't exist.

[FinalBaton]

most 1080p LCDs upscale 480p very well it seems. At least that seems like the consensus. I tried plugging my Dreamcast in a couple ones from different brand and it looked great each time.

Even if a 1080p HDTV (LCD, Plasma, OLED, it doesn't matter) has a great upscaler, you're still dealing with non-integer scaling from 480p, which compromises image quality. 1080 does not divide evenly into 480. There also the issue of analog-to-digital conversion. On top of that, there's digital post-processing to deal with that distorts the integrity of the picture, while adding input lag. And non-CRTs typically have inferior black levels, color gamut, contrast and handling of motion blur and ghosting.

Well if the picture looks really good than that's what matters the most.
As Fudoh said, an LCD is a perfectly fine alternative.

[Fudoh]

Even if a 1080p HDTV (LCD, Plasma, OLED, it doesn't matter) has a great upscaler, you're still dealing with non-integer scaling from 480p, which compromises image quality. 1080 does not divide evenly into 480.

it doesn't matter. If you think this would bother you, you really haven't seen good scaling in a while.

I get when people complain of lack of contrast, lack or visible grill structure or scanlines or motion resolution, but scaling shouldn't bother you. It's the last of your concerns

[Fudoh]

That's exactly why ED CRTs don't exist.

I never knew that it was this hard to find ED CRTs in the US. Over here the last generation of CRTs all were capable of 480p component (or some via VGA) to utilize the increased picture quality of progressive scan DVD players.

[PascalP]

Was the PDP-V402 even released in America? I've never seen a hint of one.

Yes, that would be the PDP-V402, 110V input and NTSC support only.
The European PDP-V402E does 220V input and PAL + NTSC support

[bobrocks95]

Was the PDP-V402 even released in America? I've never seen a hint of one.

Yes, that would be the PDP-V402, 110V input and NTSC support only.
The European PDP-V402E does 220V input and PAL + NTSC support

Oh, gotcha. I'm guessing that it was used as a presentation monitor and is quite rare. As far as EDTVs go you mostly see Panasonic plasmas, and I think I've seen one NEC plasma. Beyond that it's tiny LCDs nobody today would want.

[FinalBaton]

I never knew that it was this hard to find ED CRTs in the US. Over here the last generation of CRTs all were capable of 480p component (or some via VGA) to utilize the increased picture quality of progressive scan DVD players.

Yup. Pratically no native ED CRTs here (there might be a couple ones, but they're extremely rare).
The 1080i Sony CRTs recognize 480p signals, and will will display them with a slim black border all around (I think it's upscasling the 480p signal to 960i? or maybe it's really displaying a 480p picture in a 560p frame? I can't remember. Bazookaben knows more about this than I. What I remember is that there's a bit of digital processing going on in this display mode, which introduces some lag).

[FinalBaton]

[Oh, gotcha. I'm guessing that it was used as a presentation monitor and is quite rare. As far as EDTVs go you mostly see Panasonic plasmas, and I think I've seen one NEC plasma. Beyond that it's tiny LCDs nobody today would want.

True, there are some large EDTV plasmas. I think I saw an NEC one indeed.

[Fudoh]

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=54224

The NEC one looks stunning, but it's actually not this good. At least not as good as the Pioneer ones.

[Ikaruga11]

The 1080i Sony CRTs recognize 480p signals, and will will display them with a slim black border all around (I think it's upscasling the 480p signal to 960i? or maybe it's really displaying a 480p picture in a 560p frame? I can't remember. Bazookaben knows more about this than I. What I remember is that there's a bit of digital processing going on in this display mode, which introduces some lag).

My 960 displays 16:9 content without any black borders.

480i is either line-doubled to 960i or de-interlaced to 480p. 240p is line-doubled to 480p.

[BazookaBen]

I think PC CRT's are one of the best options for 480p. PS2 and Dreamcast can output actual RGB, no transcoding required, but with Gamecube and Xbox you'll need a transcoder, which is a nice, lag-free conversion. You will see scanlines, which darken the picture, but you can counter this with an Extron RGB unit with ouptut level controls.

Also, using an OSSC to line-double to 960p should be an even better option, as that would completely eliminate the scanlines. I'm pretty sure this feature exists as of the latest firmware, though I could be mistaken.

The 1080i Sony CRTs recognize 480p signals, and will will display them with a slim black border all around

This is basically right, except the TV actually increases H and V size to hide the border. This way the tube is still scanning at the required 33.75khz (480p is 31khz)

[Josh128]

Everyone always talks "Sony" when talking HD-CRTs-- there were many great 480p capable sets from other manufacturers-- Hitachi & Panasonic & Samsung for sure, Philips as well. For me they (HD-CRTs) are the "gold standard" for 6th gen 480p consoles.


720p or 768p plasmas and LCDs should also be considered, and look considerably more authentic for 480p than 1080p sets in my opinion. The last Samsung plasmas produced (ceased production in 2014) are some of the best.

[Gunstar]

I think PC CRT's are one of the best options for 480p. PS2 and Dreamcast can output actual RGB, no transcoding required, but with Gamecube and Xbox you'll need a transcoder, which is a nice, lag-free conversion. You will see scanlines, which darken the picture, but you can counter this with an Extron RGB unit with ouptut level controls.

Also, using an OSSC to line-double to 960p should be an even better option, as that would completely eliminate the scanlines. I'm pretty sure this feature exists as of the latest firmware, though I could be mistaken.

The 1080i Sony CRTs recognize 480p signals, and will will display them with a slim black border all around

This is basically right, except the TV actually increases H and V size to hide the border. This way the tube is still scanning at the required 33.75khz (480p is 31khz)

+1 for PC CRTs. Wii, GC (via WIi), DC and Xbox look amazing. Really interested to see line doubled 960p on a PC CRT!

[BazookaBen]

Really interested to see line doubled 960p on a PC CRT!

You can already do it on PS2 running GS Mode Selector.

Just select 1280x1024@60hz as your resolution, it will output 1280x960 letterboxed inside 1024 lines. Then you just have to use your monitor's menu to stretch the picture.

Gradius V is good one to try this with, it looks incredible.

[tacoguy64]

If you can get your hands on one then a multi-sync monitor like the bvm will be the best display you can get in terms of picture quality and lag. However I do hear newer LCD Samsung provide decent picture quality when it comes to down scaling images, and they have low lag. Plasma tv's that display decent in 480i wouldn't be a bad choice either. Any newer HDTV will be a lot cheaper and easier than getting a multi-sync monitor. You also get non of the drawbacks with a newer tv. Just make sure your tv can scale down, has the right inputs, and has low lag.

And how are you guys connecting these consoles to a PC crt? Are you guys using trans coders? As far as I know most pc crt monitors either have vga and some of the higher end ones have rgb.

[h1ghju1ce]

I had a Panasonic TX 32PD30 Progressive scan EDTV via Component

It was awesome, but it was huge, and omg soo heavy

PS2 Looked amazing in 480p, I had it from 2004-2008, upgraded to FHD LCD due to the Xbox360

But back then I knew nothing of lag, so I have no idea if it added any processing overhead

[FinalBaton]

The 1080i Sony CRTs recognize 480p signals, and will will display them with a slim black border all around

This is basically right, except the TV actually increases H and V size to hide the border. This way the tube is still scanning at the required 33.75khz (480p is 31khz)

Ah, so then it's true 480p but with a bit of digital processing to expand the image. Looks like these set are nice options for 480p then.

[FinalBaton]

That's pretty damn cool h1ghju1ce, it must have been impressive to have a progressive scan set back in the day!

[FinalBaton]

If you can get your hands on one then a multi-sync monitor like the bvm will be the best display you can get in terms of picture quality and lag. However I do hear newer LCD Samsung provide decent picture quality when it comes to down scaling images, and they have low lag. Plasma tv's that display decent in 480i wouldn't be a bad choice either. Any newer HDTV will be a lot cheaper and easier than getting a multi-sync monitor. You also get non of the drawbacks with a newer tv. Just make sure your tv can scale down, has the right inputs, and has low lag.

Very well said.

And how are you guys connecting these consoles to a PC crt? Are you guys using trans coders? As far as I know most pc crt monitors either have vga and some of the higher end ones have rgb.

I'm guessing most people use a linedoubler with scanline functions like an XRGB-3 (or the OSSC now that it's out).

[kamiboy]

I got me a Panasonic EDTV back in the day as well. I remember looking very hard for one that came with a 4:3 aspect ratio since most CRT TV's in Europe at the time had switched to 16:9 tubes.

Still clearly remember hooking my Gamecube to it and seeing Wind Waker running in progressive scan for the first time. It was rather impressive. I still had the set until last year where I sold it off. The quality of the picture did fall rather short of a 480p capable BVM, but of course I had no way of knowing back in the mid to early 2000's. Back then it was the best that I had ever seen.

[Gunstar]

Really interested to see line doubled 960p on a PC CRT!

You can already do it on PS2 running GS Mode Selector.

Just select 1280x1024@60hz as your resolution, it will output 1280x960 letterboxed inside 1024 lines. Then you just have to use your monitor's menu to stretch the picture.

Gradius V is good one to try this with, it looks incredible.

I need to try this! Recently got a memory card with GS and Xploder, had mixed results. I tried Sky Odyssey which would either be half res or give me 480p with severe bobbing. King of Route 66 worked fine though and was nice to see it in 480p but I didn't think to try a higher res. My Gradius V is in storage, might be time to fish it out...

[BazookaBen]

Ah, so then it's true 480p but with a bit of digital processing to expand the image. Looks like these set are nice options for 480p then.

The digital processing step is when they center the 480p picture inside a 540p picture. The zooming afterwards is analog. But yeah, end result is a proper 480 lines.

And how are you guys connecting these consoles to a PC crt? Are you guys using trans coders? As far as I know most pc crt monitors either have vga and some of the higher end ones have rgb.

I'm guessing most people use a linedoubler with scanline functions like an XRGB-3 (or the OSSC now that it's out).

For 6th generation games that support 480p, all you need is a transcoder. But like I said, the OSSC could make things even better by opening up 960p on more consoles.

[Gunstar]

And how are you guys connecting these consoles to a PC crt? Are you guys using trans coders? As far as I know most pc crt monitors either have vga and some of the higher end ones have rgb.

I have a Mayflash and GARO transcoder - Component to VGA. Picture quality is excellent with both but the Mayflash has some desynch issues, mainly with the Wii. I've had a hard time getting a good picture out of the Wii compared to the DC and Xbox but on a PC CRT it's hands down the best image I've seen the console produce. Playing my PAL GC collection in 480p via the Wii has been a treat and is a decent substitute (GC via component picture is still better but not worth the cost imo) for not having one of those rare GC component cables.

[FinalBaton]

For 6th generation games that support 480p, all you need is a transcoder. But like I said, the OSSC could make things even better by opening up 960p on more consoles.

Indeed, only a transcoder is needed here. no need to scale.
My coffee hasn't kicked in yet I think

The digital processing step is when they center the 480p picture inside a 540p picture. The zooming afterwards is analog. But yeah, end result is a proper 480 lines.

just curious : have you mesured the lag in this mode? and if not, how much do you estimate there is?