TV RGB mod thread

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KatKya
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by KatKya »

mvsfan wrote:Your good. Unlike my tvs, that chip you have has Analog R G B inputs. you should be able to add rgb to this tv.
I know it's doable, I'm mainly asking for a bit of advice on how difficult/what it might require parts wise.

I'm still finding my sea legs when it comes to electronics stuff, and a bit of advice from those more knowledgeable on where to start in building amplifiers/clamping circuits or whatever to make it stable and usable.
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suprcrackers
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by suprcrackers »

While I am far from an expert on the subject, I would suggest getting a burner TV to experiment on. For me, I have about 15 CRT's lying around my shed (yes I am crazy). This week was city wide cleanup in my town so there were tons of quality CRT's lying on the curb waiting to be thrown out. I certainly helped myself to them. But get a free experimental TV to get your feet wet. It helps calm the nerves about how complex it is when you know if you screw up, you're fine.

As far as parts go, I would order a pack of 75ohm resistors, 0.1uf caps, scart sockets, 4pdt on/on switches, and for the wire it's a matter of preference. I use cat 5e wire, but I've heard other people use cut up VGA cables as wiring. For equipment, you need a soldering iron, solder, flux, and a multimeter and solder sucker is nice to have. Hope this helps.
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KatKya
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by KatKya »

suprcrackers wrote:While I am far from an expert on the subject, I would suggest getting a burner TV to experiment on. For me, I have about 15 CRT's lying around my shed (yes I am crazy). This week was city wide cleanup in my town so there were tons of quality CRT's lying on the curb waiting to be thrown out. I certainly helped myself to them. But get a free experimental TV to get your feet wet. It helps calm the nerves about how complex it is when you know if you screw up, you're fine.

As far as parts go, I would order a pack of 75ohm resistors, 0.1uf caps, scart sockets, 4pdt on/on switches, and for the wire it's a matter of preference. I use cat 5e wire, but I've heard other people use cut up VGA cables as wiring. For equipment, you need a soldering iron, solder, flux, and a multimeter and solder sucker is nice to have. Hope this helps.
I've got multiple RGB monitors, it's just this one TV in particular I'd like to see RGB on, and the fact that you're not likely get the same sort of results from any two jungle chips that makes me hesitant to go out, find a "burner" to screw around with only to find out that this one needs thing setup up completely and entirely different, either for better or worse.
And at least until I would have everything worked out and refined, SCART sockets would definitely be one of the last things I'd pick up. If anything, toss a group of RCA or even BNC connectors on their to go along with the stuff I already have.
tjsynkral
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by tjsynkral »

Is anyone around Chicago interested in buying a TV which is pre-modded? I'm going to have at least one spare when I'm done and wonder if there's demand for such a thing.
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by tjsynkral »

suprcrackers wrote:I have my RGB signal coming from my Scart socket terminated to ground at 75 ohms. They are then heading to a 0.1uf capacitor. After that they head straight to the jungle IC which I have snipped the legs off. All of this is connected to a 4pdt switch, so I can still use the original OSD if I need to.
Since you didn't mention it... Did you pull the OSD blanking high with the RGB side of the switch?

You may be able to preview how it should look by opening the full-screen menu while in RGB...
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KatKya
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by KatKya »

suprcrackers wrote:But get a free experimental TV to get your feet wet. It helps calm the nerves about how complex it is when you know if you screw up, you're fine.
Suppose it may have actually been a decent idea after all. Opened it back up to look around and see how I might go about attaching all this, and somehow lost green all together. In trying to figure out what happened, the neckboard got bumped, gave me back green again before a second bump sent the full screen to a white raster with retrace lines. No idea what could have happened, or how to go about solving it.

Incredibly upsetting.
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nem
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by nem »

White screen with retrace lines sounds like you have the voltage too high. There's a pot on the flyback usually marked as SCREEN, try turning it carefully counter clockwise.
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KatKya
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by KatKya »

Thats what I assumed, but it has absolutely no affect turning it either way.

I feel I may have fucked up the video amp, as that's around the area that got bumped when it happened.
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Amra
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Amra »

This is a great thread, and a lot of really good information, but I have a question for some of the more technically minded people in this thread.

Alright, so. I have a KV-27FS100, and it's been pretty well covered in this thread as far as getting RGB input working (and it does work). However, what should I do if I have separate horizontal and vertical syncs?

I can't find a datasheet on the Jungle IC, but I did find the service manual, and can't seem to figure out where I would inject these separately, so it seems the best option would be to combine them to make a CSync signal.

However, this presents a problem. I am under the impression you can't just twist the wires together and expect to get a good CSync signal (well, I've heard you can in some cases, such as if they are negative). You can XOR them like this, and you will get a usable signal but the image will still be slightly distorted on the upper edge.

Full disclosure; This is regarding a VGA signal from an old computer that has been soft-modded to output 15khz, and it does work (using a XOR'ed Sync currently).

So, my question is... is there a better method of combining HSync and VSync to create a CSync? I can't seem to find any after market options for doing this, other than a 200-500 dollar Tektronix VGA SYNC Combiner Cable... Or, is there a place where I can inject HSync and VSync into the board separately?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
tjsynkral
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by tjsynkral »

What I find on Google is that OR or XOR is the way to get composite sync. If it's working don't fix it!
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bobrocks95
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by bobrocks95 »

I feel like I've seen Fudoh recommend Extron RGB Interfaces for this purpose?
PS1 Disc-Based Game ID BIOS patch for MemCard Pro and SD2PSX automatic VMC switching.
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Amra
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Amra »

tj wrote:What I find on Google is that OR or XOR is the way to get composite sync. If it's working don't fix it!
That method does work, to a degree; I am currently using that method, but it is not ideal. It will produce some distortion on the upper 10% of the screen. To get an ideal CSync signal from HSync and VSync, I'm pretty sure you will end up needing a PLL with some kind of PLD. I was hoping there was another way, but if there is, I've yet to find it. I can build a circuit easy enough, but I haven't finished nearly enough college to design such a circuit from scratch. :\
bob wrote:I feel like I've seen Fudoh recommend Extron RGB Interfaces for this purpose?
I've recently heard similar. After my post I ended up ordering an Extron RGB 108P, its an old discontinued model, but there were enough of them on ebay at reasonable prices that it seemed worthwhile to take the chance. I'm not entirely sure if it will do what I need, but I will gladly spend 25 dollars to find out. After I get the unit and test it, I will respond to say one way or the other. :)

EDIT: It seems like this device should be what I need. Reading the only pamphlet I can find, it says the following: The interface automatically converts all computer sources to analog RGB. This signal is then output to the rear panel BNC connectors. The standard output configuration is Red, Green, Blue and Composite Sync. When the Composite Sync Channel is terminated at 75 ý, the interface automatically outputs Composite Sync. If the Composite Sync Channel is not terminated by 75 ý or is disconnected, Sync automatically outputs on the Green Channel. Dip Switch #1, when turned "ON", disables the automatic Sync feature and forces sync to output on the Sync Channel
tjsynkral
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by tjsynkral »

A little bit of extra info to anyone working with the Sony KV-27FS12 or FS16... These are fantastic to work on in theory, but a lot more sensitive than what I'm used to when it comes to electronics. Usually you can goof here and there and not do major damage.

My first KV-27FS12 which you've likely seen in this thread went off with no trouble at all.

My second was pretty much 100% done and I was just doing finishing touches, when I fried my jungle IC or something else on the MA board. Symptom of this is the set flashes 5 times rapidly, or flashes repeatedly and never fires up. I'm not sure how it happened, but I was fixing solder joints with the set powered on and this is not something you should do because the solder iron can jump your circuit.

I got a third set with the intention of doing an MA board swap, but the third set turned out to be a FS16 which has the extra PIP components. Awesome! So I gave up on the FS12 and modded the FS16. But, when I did my first test, I forgot to reconnect CN504 to the A board (which, annoyingly, is 2 inches long and has no slack so you must disconnect it to slide out the board even an inch). That very simple mistake fried the TDA8172 chip on the A board and made the set unable to power on (4 rapid flashes). I salvaged the TDA8172 from the previous set (along with the cover for the control panel!) and now things are working again, but what a pain!

So, always make sure to check and double check all your harnesses, and color-code the flat ones on both ends with Sharpie because they are all very similar looking. Just because you're in a rush from re-doing after a failure, don't make things worse.

Also, I really suggest you adopt the method I've adopted for splicing the RGB lines:
Remove SMD components with a heat gun, not an iron - I use this one: B00ITMPQS2
But don't solder onto the pads you lifted the SMD's from! They are very fragile, and on the FS12/16, there is a tiny trace that actually runs between the 2 legs of the SMD and under the components themselves! Just avoid that area. There are some large through-hole resistors down the line you can much more easily grab the OSD source from. I still used the SMD pads for the return path, but very, very carefully. There's no other place but the legs of the jungle IC and I consider that a last resort if I muck up the SMD pads.

With that said, I am also getting frustrated with some of the FS12/16's image processor quirks, such as the checkerboard/diagonal line pattern that appears on some sources. I want to get my hands on an older Trinitron set, one of the black ones with a curved picture tube (the flat screen does distort just a bit in side-scrollers). I can't bring myself to pay for a CRT so I'll keep watching for this model on CL's freebie page.
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suprcrackers
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by suprcrackers »

tjsynkral wrote:A little bit of extra info to anyone working with the Sony KV-27FS12 or FS16... These are fantastic to work on in theory, but a lot more sensitive than what I'm used to when it comes to electronics. Usually you can goof here and there and not do major damage.

My first KV-27FS12 which you've likely seen in this thread went off with no trouble at all.

My second was pretty much 100% done and I was just doing finishing touches, when I fried my jungle IC or something else on the MA board. Symptom of this is the set flashes 5 times rapidly, or flashes repeatedly and never fires up. I'm not sure how it happened, but I was fixing solder joints with the set powered on and this is not something you should do because the solder iron can jump your circuit.

I got a third set with the intention of doing an MA board swap, but the third set turned out to be a FS16 which has the extra PIP components. Awesome! So I gave up on the FS12 and modded the FS16. But, when I did my first test, I forgot to reconnect CN504 to the A board (which, annoyingly, is 2 inches long and has no slack so you must disconnect it to slide out the board even an inch). That very simple mistake fried the TDA8172 chip on the A board and made the set unable to power on (4 rapid flashes). I salvaged the TDA8172 from the previous set (along with the cover for the control panel!) and now things are working again, but what a pain!

So, always make sure to check and double check all your harnesses, and color-code the flat ones on both ends with Sharpie because they are all very similar looking. Just because you're in a rush from re-doing after a failure, don't make things worse.

Also, I really suggest you adopt the method I've adopted for splicing the RGB lines:
Remove SMD components with a heat gun, not an iron - I use this one: B00ITMPQS2
But don't solder onto the pads you lifted the SMD's from! They are very fragile, and on the FS12/16, there is a tiny trace that actually runs between the 2 legs of the SMD and under the components themselves! Just avoid that area. There are some large through-hole resistors down the line you can much more easily grab the OSD source from. I still used the SMD pads for the return path, but very, very carefully. There's no other place but the legs of the jungle IC and I consider that a last resort if I muck up the SMD pads.

With that said, I am also getting frustrated with some of the FS12/16's image processor quirks, such as the checkerboard/diagonal line pattern that appears on some sources. I want to get my hands on an older Trinitron set, one of the black ones with a curved picture tube (the flat screen does distort just a bit in side-scrollers). I can't bring myself to pay for a CRT so I'll keep watching for this model on CL's freebie page.
I will keep that in mind. I just picked up a free kv-27fsv13 from craigslist. I'm assuming it's pretty similar to the v12 and v15.
tjsynkral
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by tjsynkral »

suprcrackers wrote:I will keep that in mind. I just picked up a free kv-27fsv13 from craigslist. I'm assuming it's pretty similar to the v12 and v15.
That's the same chassis as the sets I'm working on, so the schematic here should be applicable to your set: http://gadgetscope.com/rgb/rgbschematic.png
Remove C352, C353, C395, R263. Grab OSD inputs from R025, R026, R027, L305 and return them to the jungle IC side of those SMD pads. Grab positive from L302, and ground shouldn't be too hard to find. Except for the blowups I've had, I feel like I could mod these sets in my sleep now.
GoXoD
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by GoXoD »

Hi All,

I have a KD-27fs170, there are no rgb inputs on my chip, only rgb out from the chip.

I thought about cutting the rgb out lines before the buffer and putting a switch between scart and the normal lines.

my other thought was to drive the rgb from the neck board but Im not 100% sure on how this is done, cut the line in, add switch, and 75 ohm termination?


This tv is in pretty good shape and looks nice so I would rather not brake it although it needs adjustments.

Any tips?

Thanks guys
tjsynkral
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by tjsynkral »

I'm working on a new, older set I obtained now. The KV-27S42. My impressions so far are that this set has a much nicer picture because the tube is curved - no fuzzy, blurred scanlines at the edges and no scrolling distortion. This model is harder to find though.

The only luma input on this set is on the S-Video which is switched on plug-in, so I had to grab the shield and ground wires and put them on green and blue ground on the SCART so that plugging the SCART in would trigger the S-Video switching. (This set also has a picture shift issue with composite, though I saw no other downside to composite vs. luma as sync source.)

I'm torn because this set has a very nice picture, but no front composite or S-Video inputs (which I like to have for those systems that are not RGB-able), and no component input. I think there's another model which has the same jungle as the KV-27FS12's but a curved picture, and I may have to watch for one of those to pop up. Sadly, this set has the same issue with checkerboarding when there's a picture on the sync source.

Image
(The apparent purity problem in the corner of this picture doesn't appear in real life... I'm not sure how the camera saw it. The set used to have this problem to the naked eye but I've corrected that with a stick-on magnet.)
Image
Image
Image
Ikaruga11
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Ikaruga11 »

Holy crap. That looks amazing! :o
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mikejmoffitt
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by mikejmoffitt »

That's the same model as I used at the start of the thread. It's a great set, and it looks fantastic with RGB.

What appears to be a purity problem is actually a moire pattern from your camera's sensor grid and the TV phosphor lines. That's why when it goes out of focus (back up a little after focusing) the colors will look perfect.

I picked up a massive 36" FD WEGA set, and I'm going to see if I can RGB it easily too. I have the 36" cousin of the 27S42 back at home too.
Image
tjsynkral
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by tjsynkral »

Update: I think I'm going to keep my KV-27FS12 as my main 27-inch TV. The scrolling barrel distortion is not nearly as bad on it as it is on my 36-incher, and barely noticeable compared to the 27S42. The picture quality overall on RGB is nearly identical, although the 27S42 is not accepting composite sync from my NESRGB (fed into luma), and composite video sync still has the problem of checkerboarding in the video. Maybe Sync on Luma from the NESRGB would work without a checkerboard problem, but that alone isn't why I'm leaning against the 27S42.

The 27FS12 also has significantly better sound quality. I'd happily use the built-in stereo speakers on that set for my retro games. The 27S42 speakers just have a bit less pop and clarity and the Genesis (technically I have an X'EYE) really stands out as being better on the FS. One of the sets was destined for a family member, and it'll be the 27S42, which is still totally worth having over any non-Sony TV, but just a wee bit less nice than the FS. Oh, and the flimsy foot broke when I was carrying it down the stairs so I have to superglue it back together before I give it away...
mvsfan
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by mvsfan »

those screenshots look great, but

One of the greatest benefits of RGB modding a tv to me, Is because Large Rgb Crts are so scarce.

Why not do it to a 43" Mitsubishi instead?

:)
tjsynkral
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by tjsynkral »

mvsfan wrote:those screenshots look great, but

One of the greatest benefits of RGB modding a tv to me, Is because Large Rgb Crts are so scarce.

Why not do it to a 43" Mitsubishi instead?

:)
I'll be modding my 36-inch Sony, but I'm not looking forward to it. For one thing, I can't move it to my desk where I usually work because I can't move it, period. Even with a decently strong helper, bringing it down the stairs was a nightmare. For another, the bigger picture tubes are harder to calibrate for convergence and other issues. I'll probably be printing a hard copy of the schematic and working on it in the basement where it sits.

Also, swapping the SCART and flipping the switch are tricky when they're on the back of a huge TV. I don't want to mount a switch on the front, but I'm considering maybe the top - can't make the wires too long though. I've asked retro-console-accessories if she'll make me a coax SCART extension so I can run a tail into the cabinet and not go behind the set.

The big TVs do have pretty big scanline gaps, though.
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suprcrackers
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by suprcrackers »

Hey I've got a quick question. I'm working on a Toshiba 36af43 which has a TA1310N jungle IC http://www.datasheetspdf.com/PDF/TA1310N/672934/1. The OSD RGB in pins (7,8,9) call for 1.2vp-p which are fed by 0.1uf caps. It's my understanding that typical RGB video is 0.7vp-p. How would I go about amplifying my signal so it matches 1.2vp-p?
tjsynkral
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by tjsynkral »

suprcrackers wrote:Hey I've got a quick question. I'm working on a Toshiba 36af43 which has a TA1310N jungle IC http://www.datasheetspdf.com/PDF/TA1310N/672934/1. The OSD RGB in pins (7,8,9) call for 1.2vp-p which are fed by 0.1uf caps. It's my understanding that typical RGB video is 0.7vp-p. How would I go about amplifying my signal so it matches 1.2vp-p?
If I were doing it, I would wire it up and see how it looks, perhaps increase the picture and contrast on the set and that may be just fine. You could also try inputting on pins 3-5 with 2.1V on pin 6.
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suprcrackers
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by suprcrackers »

I'll give it a shot. Had it wired up anyway before I realized that it needed 1.2vp-p.
KBZ
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by KBZ »

I've work on monitors but mostly in the way of capkits, so I'd feel better having some of you guys glance over my plans before going forward.

Recently received a Toshiba 20AF44 that's using a m61283fp ic. darknezz19 was working on the same set before switching to a trinitron

Schematic for external rgb (osd) seems almost identical to other rgb mods in the thread. I can't seem to tell if the rgb is analog or digital as the documentation mentions both digital or analog on the same pins.

Image

This looks a bit different than the ntsc colour change frequency mentioned earlier

Image

5v to pin 24 for full screen blanking, and C-Sync to the composite input.

Image
Last edited by KBZ on Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
=/
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Voultar
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Voultar »

The 1.uF couple caps and 75 ohm pull-down terminations are pretty indicative of a analog inputs.
darknezz19
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by darknezz19 »

Hi Kingbuzzo. Received your PM on Neogeo.com forums and though it's best to convo here so maybe other can get something out of it.

Which part are you not sure about or running into issues with?
KBZ
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by KBZ »

Even better! Thanks. Since your post, I think we can confirm that it's analog RGB, yet you still only managed to get a green rolling picture. Was this where the project ended? I recall having similar issues with an arcade monitor that wasn't receiving a proper common ground.
darknezz19 wrote:Ive been trying to get RGB on a toshiba tv and I have the RGB inputs lifted from the pcb and the blank pin tied to 5v but its not working. I get a green picture thats scrolling but no graphics. Maybe my ic is digital RGB levels or YUV colorspace not sure?

TV service mauel schimatic
http://www.manualslib.com/manual/958566 ... =18#manual

IC with RGB in that we are tapping.
http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/2 ... 283FP.html

Anyone know how to tell if the inputs are analog like we need and if they're using RGB or YUV
=/
darknezz19
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by darknezz19 »

It's been so long my friend, I'm just not sure. What I think helped me was cutting the 4 traces feeding rgb from the osd chip. Then just tap off the legs and make sure you terminate properly, the caps can be left out if it makes testing any easier and then added once you have a working setup. If you have already been trying maybe you can show some clear pics and others maybe can be of more help.
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