Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:54 pm

if it's running fine as is, absolutely. Tube replacements were hardly done due to failure, but due to drifting phophors which didn't guarantee 100% perfect color decoding which is crucial for movie post production work. Even at 3 hours of use EVERY SINGLE DAY, you'd need a decade to even accumulate 10,000 hours - - don't worry about it.

AndehX · Post by **AndehX** » Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:36 pm

My G1E BVM has just over 52000 hours on it and looks perfectly fine. I'd say go for it if the price is good.

jedman · Post by **jedman** » Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:10 am

Fudoh wrote:if it's running fine as is, absolutely. Tube replacements were hardly done due to failure, but due to drifting phophors which didn't guarantee 100% perfect color decoding which is crucial for movie post production work. Even at 3 hours of use EVERY SINGLE DAY, you'd need a decade to even accumulate 10,000 hours - - don't worry about it.

Ok thanks, so your saying that in all likelihood as well that it probably doesn't have that many hours operation time as it would take a decade of use just to reach 10,000 hours at 3 hours a day?

it's a D32 which im desperate to own, they want £2000 for it, may try and knock them down further.

bobrocks95 · Post by **bobrocks95** » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:07 am

It is worth what you're willing to pay for it, but I'm fairly certain members on here have gotten one for a tenth of that price.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:53 am

Ok thanks, so your saying that in all likelihood as well that it probably doesn't have that many hours operation time as it would take a decade of use just to reach 10,000 hours at 3 hours a day?

no, it probably has those hours since it was running 24/7. What I'm saying is that the hours hardly matter since as a normal user you'll never have to worry about adding any signifant amount of hours on your own.

juji82 · Post by **juji82** » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:24 am

Wish I could play 3 hours a day... I feel lucky if I can play those in a week

jedman · Post by **jedman** » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:04 am

bobrocks95 wrote:It is worth what you're willing to pay for it, but I'm fairly certain members on here have gotten one for a tenth of that price.

Maybe a while ago or in America sure.

Blair · Post by **Blair** » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:47 am

Fudoh wrote:For a DVDO setup

Not sure what you mean, don't most of the DVDO processors produce a pretty good image with straight 240p content? (especially when you add scanlines).

Fudoh wrote:that's VERY solid 240p you got there!

true, I thought it looked pretty good. but there was still something missing, after a few tweaks I think I've finally achieved my desired result (I actually think it looks better than most of the BVM's I tested).

for darker games the original scanline strength was "okay", but for bright titles (like Mario world) I felt that most of the lighter pixels lacked "definition" now with my finalized video chain I think it looks about as good as it can possibly get.

check out the screenshots, what do you think? (anything I'm missing?

(your eye might be a touch more keen than mine).

Game: Super Mario World (Korean version)
Console: American Super Nintendo (1chip-01)
Video chain: Coaxial RGB Scart -> VP50pro ->RGB203 rxi vtg ->SLG+SLG (200% intensity?) -> Lacie Electron 22 blue iv (CRT monitor)

Code: Select all

Camera Settings: ISO 200, White Balance: sunny, Focus: manual,  Resolution: 5m (2560x1920)  4:3 (downscaled for the thread)

[album link: https://imgur.com/a/Zq7VN/]

Spoiler

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:49 am

Not sure what you mean, don't most of the DVDO processors produce a pretty good image with straight 240p content? (especially when you add scanlines).

ABT102 DVDOs (VP20/30) and the VP50 don't have 240p recognition. 50Pro and Edge handle 240p well, but the engine just isn't made for scaling low res computer graphics. By adding the scanlines you're hiding *most* of the vertical artefacts, but a XRGB-3 in linedoubling would still look better and an OSSC would look considerably sharper. It will mostly come down to the horizontal color bleed and how clearly colors are seperated from each other.

I actually think it looks better than most of the BVMs I tested

in what way ?

Blair · Post by **Blair** » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:09 am

Fudoh wrote:and an OSSC would look considerably sharper.

hmmm, perhaps ( although I think any blur you might see is probably due to my camera/shaky hands... I need to get a better tripod) (I'm also not sure if scanlines would show up on direct capture)

Fudoh wrote:in what way ?

mostly in brightness and contrast, although that might have had something to do with the age of those particular BVM's. but I also think something about the phosphors in this screen look much better in motion (colors also seem nicer and more vivid).

when I compare it to my 20L5, it definitely looks sharper. although I think the 20L5 also looks pretty darn good. (and the e400 is no slouch either)

I guess until I finally get my hands on an OSSC I'll never really know just how good it could look.

(thanks for the input Fudoh).

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:43 am

hmmm, perhaps (although I think any blur you might see is probably due to my camera/shaky hands... I need to get a better tripod) (I'm also not sure if scanlines would show up on direct capture)

in two or three months from now I will have had my 50Pro for 9 years. I really know what its output looks like

Capturing scanlines digitally is hard, especially when they're "produced" by a SLG3000 or similar and not added digitally (as on a XRGB or OSSC).

amaradona · Post by **amaradona** » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:56 am

Blair wrote:
amaradona wrote:Thank you Blair!

Just to be sure, we are talking 240p 60hz not 240p 120hz aka frame doubling?
I've tested both on it, one of the main issues though is its very picky with 240p signals when it comes to refresh rate so it's not really useful with a multitude of arcade games or anything that outputs a refresh rate under exactly 60hz (a lot of games operate at 59hz or some other strange variant of that) so that's much easier to do with a video processors that can lock the refresh rate.

it also doesn't seem to properly save picture adjustments in 240p so you have to readjust it every time you turn it back on, so it's extremely fiddly to get working. (that's why I'm working on an alternate solution for it)

240p 120hz has similar problems, but you have to use black frame insertion to get rid of the frame doubling (my PC is barely powerful enough to use that without frame dips).

besides taking a few cool screenshots, I've mostly given up using the 240p feature because of how annoying it is to use. but as I said before 1080p on this monitor is fantastic (both 4:3 and 16:9)

I might have some solutions for you though, what is your main use case for this monitor? (what type of games do you want to play on it, and how you want to play them?)

At the moment, I am using only in vertical for the xbox 360 shmups,but I started to use it with a japanese saturn and an OSSC and the results are great.I am just annoyed by the brightness being a bit low(dim?) to my taste when using scanlines.
Let me know!

Blair · Post by **Blair** » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:49 am

amaradona wrote:am just annoyed by the brightness being a bit low(dim?) to my taste when using scanlines. let me know!

yeah, the Sony e400 range does have brightness problems with scanlines in general, whether it's from an SLG scanline generator or with digital scanlines from a video processor like the OSSC. having the contrast set to 100% and adjusting the brightness to 24% can help with that. (especially if you have your RGB settings at maximum already)

I found that using an Extron RGB interface with peak and level controls helped mitigate all of my brightness problems when using the e400 and scanlines (as using the internal brightness control on the e400 seems to desaturate colors a bit too much).

so that's my suggestion, pair it with a decent Extron RGB interface (that has brightness level controls).

(alternatively, you could use a PC CRT with superbright mode like some of the Mitsubishi diamond series, if you can find one locally for a good price.)

Fudoh wrote: in two or three months from now I will have had my 50Pro for 9 years. I really know what its output looks like
Capturing scanlines digitally is hard, especially when they're "produced" by a SLG3000 or similar and not added digitally (as on a XRGB or OSSC).

hmmm, all good points! (still i'm going to try another camera out later to see if I get better results, because I definitely think this one isn't capturing just how truly sharp the image looks to my eyes).

Blair · Post by **Blair** » Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:02 am

Speaking of the E400, here's a few more shots.

Game: Nights: into Dreams (NTSC/US)
Console: American Sega Saturn (Model 2 version 4)
Video chain: RGB Scart (sync-on-luma)->CSY-2100->Edge Green->HD fury 2 (clone)->Sony e400 multiscan (CRT)

Code: Select all

Camera Settings: ISO 200, White Balance: sunny, Focus: manual,  Resolution: 5m (2560x1920)  4:3 (downscaled for the thread)

(this is 240p upscaled to 1080p from the Edge Green, no scanlines)

[album link: https://imgur.com/a/3X61T]

Spoiler

Blair · Post by **Blair** » Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:11 am

PlayStation 3 on the e400 (Soul Caliber 2 HD)

[album link: https://imgur.com/a/eVYWi]

Spoiler

FinalBaton · Post by **FinalBaton** » Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:41 pm

Those PS3 pics look friggin sweet Blair.
I like how PS3 looks on my NEC crt monitor too, but it doesn't have a TVL count as high as your E400

KarlG · Post by **KarlG** » Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:32 pm

Hi,

I bought a BVM-20F1E a few months ago. I was very happy with it until I noticed a strange colour problem in the top right corner. It only seems to affect red or white images. On a red background I get a purple blob and on white I get a slight bluish colour.

Using the internal degaussing does not fix the problem. In-fact I think it's causing the issue. I can only remove the impurity by using a external degaussing tool. This fixes the problem until I turn the screen back on or press the degauss button and the degaussing coil seems to re-magnetise that area. The size of the area increases depending on if it was a full degauss from cold or a weaker degauss when the set is turned on.

Also my shielded PC speakers do not affect any part of the image except for this one corner. If i put them in the correct position it actually fixes the problem.

Can anyone diagnose what the problem may be?

Thanks

Spoiler

LDigital · Post by **LDigital** » Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:45 pm

So I have had my second bvm 20-F1E or about a week now and despite having the best geometry I have ever seen it appears to have the same flaw that my other bvm had in almost the exact same area on the screen. I am starting to suspect that this is a consistent flaw with all of them.

This issue particularly affects 2d Sprite games, it's not really possible to detect on 3D stuff. There seems to be a 1cm thick vertical band about 1/3 of the way in from the left where the screen compresses ever so slightly before releasing again when sprites pass through it. I have played around with the linearity but there is no way to pinpoint the exact area to expand it. It's particularly noticeable on super castlevania when walking past the fence at the start, the gaps between the rails narrow and expand as they pass this point. It's also very noticeable on the background mountain range of super turrican 1 stage 1. It's kind of irritating for my ocd and was the reason I sold my last bvm. There is nothing that gets picked up on pictures as the linearity and geometry looks amazing while static, it is only detectable in motion.

I have done a deflector reset and tweaked everything I can but it seems impossible to rectify. Does anyone else have this? Once you see it, you can't un-see it unfortunately.

AndehX · Post by **AndehX** » Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:49 pm

LDigital wrote:So I have had my second bvm 20-F1E or about a week now and despite having the best geometry I have ever seen it appears to have the same flaw that my other bvm had in almost the exact same area on the screen. I am starting to suspect that this is a consistent flaw with all of them.

This issue particularly affects 2d Sprite games, it's not really possible to detect on 3D stuff. There seems to be a 1cm thick vertical band about 1/3 of the way in from the left where the screen compresses ever so slightly before releasing again when sprites pass through it. I have played around with the linearity but there is no way to pinpoint the exact area to expand it. It's particularly noticeable on super castlevania when walking past the fence at the start, the gaps between the rails narrow and expand as they pass this point. It's also very noticeable on the background mountain range of super turrican 1 stage 1. It's kind of irritating for my ocd and was the reason I sold my last bvm. There is nothing that gets picked up on pictures as the linearity and geometry looks amazing while static, it is only detectable in motion.

I have done a deflector reset and tweaked everything I can but it seems impossible to rectify. Does anyone else have this? Once you see it, you can't un-see it unfortunately.

such is the realm of CRT's. You will never get perfect geometry or linearity on a CRT, and it is unreasonable to expect it. If it bothers you THAT much, you might just be better off with a framemeister and an LCD TV

nem · Post by **nem** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:02 am

KarlG wrote:Using the internal degaussing does not fix the problem. In-fact I think it's causing the issue. I can only remove the impurity by using a external degaussing tool. This fixes the problem until I turn the screen back on or press the degauss button and the degaussing coil seems to re-magnetise that area. The size of the area increases depending on if it was a full degauss from cold or a weaker degauss when the set is turned on.

Would it be a bad idea just to unplug the internal degaussing coil?

LDigital wrote:I have played around with the linearity but there is no way to pinpoint the exact area to expand it.

The 240p test suite has a pretty awesome linearity test.

DatPhosphorGlow · Post by **DatPhosphorGlow** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:36 am

LDigital wrote:So I have had my second bvm 20-F1E or about a week now and despite having the best geometry I have ever seen it appears to have the same flaw that my other bvm had in almost the exact same area on the screen. I am starting to suspect that this is a consistent flaw with all of them.

This issue particularly affects 2d Sprite games, it's not really possible to detect on 3D stuff. There seems to be a 1cm thick vertical band about 1/3 of the way in from the left where the screen compresses ever so slightly before releasing again when sprites pass through it. I have played around with the linearity but there is no way to pinpoint the exact area to expand it. It's particularly noticeable on super castlevania when walking past the fence at the start, the gaps between the rails narrow and expand as they pass this point. It's also very noticeable on the background mountain range of super turrican 1 stage 1. It's kind of irritating for my ocd and was the reason I sold my last bvm. There is nothing that gets picked up on pictures as the linearity and geometry looks amazing while static, it is only detectable in motion.

I have done a deflector reset and tweaked everything I can but it seems impossible to rectify. Does anyone else have this? Once you see it, you can't un-see it unfortunately.

The 4 pages of geometry adjustments expands to 7 pages when you go into the maintenance menu. Have you really tried to adjust all those settings?

AndehX · Post by **AndehX** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:52 am

Here's a few close ups of my 20G1E, because why not, im bored.

jedman · Post by **jedman** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:30 pm

Carthik wrote:
LDigital wrote:So I have had my second bvm 20-F1E or about a week now and despite having the best geometry I have ever seen it appears to have the same flaw that my other bvm had in almost the exact same area on the screen. I am starting to suspect that this is a consistent flaw with all of them.

This issue particularly affects 2d Sprite games, it's not really possible to detect on 3D stuff. There seems to be a 1cm thick vertical band about 1/3 of the way in from the left where the screen compresses ever so slightly before releasing again when sprites pass through it. I have played around with the linearity but there is no way to pinpoint the exact area to expand it. It's particularly noticeable on super castlevania when walking past the fence at the start, the gaps between the rails narrow and expand as they pass this point. It's also very noticeable on the background mountain range of super turrican 1 stage 1. It's kind of irritating for my ocd and was the reason I sold my last bvm. There is nothing that gets picked up on pictures as the linearity and geometry looks amazing while static, it is only detectable in motion.

I have done a deflector reset and tweaked everything I can but it seems impossible to rectify. Does anyone else have this? Once you see it, you can't un-see it unfortunately.
The 4 pages of geometry adjustments expands to 7 pages when you go into the maintenance menu. Have you really tried to adjust all those settings?

I think the only way to get the geometry spot on would be to project a test pattern grid on to the screen and then adjust the bvm to match, otherwise how else are you going to get it exact. adjusting by eye is never going to work, even if i get the sides more or less totally straight I still notice distortion when scrolling horizontally.

AndehX · Post by **AndehX** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:52 pm

actually yeah, some kind of stick on overlay that you can put onto the screen, would probably help immensly with getting the geometry just right. suprised you can't get them already

bobrocks95 · Post by **bobrocks95** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:25 pm

As I think someone mentioned above, the 240p test suite is great for this. You can adjust linearity with the grid pattern (or maybe there's a specific one for linearity I'm not remembering?) and then test the results with the horizontal scroll test.
EDIT: nem did mention it, yeah

I had always heard that for most CRTs you can easily adjust vertical linearity, but BVMs were some of the few displays that could adjust horizontal linearity as well. Is that not universally true?

AndehX · Post by **AndehX** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:39 pm

i know about the 240p test suite (as we all do) but even with that, it can be hard to get the geometry just right. Thats where a stick on overlay would probably be immensly helpful, because then all you need to do is match the geometry on your screen to the stick on grid. Simple.

LDigital · Post by **LDigital** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:54 pm

Jedman do you have the same issue?
I use the test suites religiously but it's not helpful for my problem. I have tried every setting there is and it's just not possible to isolate this one area to fix it. It's not visible when doing static tests as the geometry looks amazing. only in motion can you see this one area of distortion. Horizontal scrolling grid shows it as a perceptible distortions as the grid travels by.

jedman · Post by **jedman** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:06 pm

LDigital wrote:Jedman do you have the same issue?
I use the test suites religiously but it's not helpful for my problem. I have tried every setting there is and it's just not possible to isolate this one area to fix it. It's not visible when doing static tests as the geometry looks amazing. only in motion can you see this one area of distortion. Horizontal scrolling grid shows it as a perceptible distortions as the grid travels by.

Yeah I have the D24, can get the test grid pretty much perfectly straight to the sides of the monitor, and even looks pretty perfect using the scrolling grid test, but in gameplay, noticeably 2d side scrolling or top down rpg's, can notice a bit of distortion when scrolling.

Its not that bad and certainly better than the D20 I had before, but still noticeable if your looking for it.

I still reckon its possible to eliminate it but would need to use a projected grid to align it perfectly as the geometry must be out by a tiny amount somewhere but finding it by eye is very difficult, even tried using a ruler.

I think it could also be due to ageing capacitors on the deflection module, so replacing these may fix it, know savon pat on ebay will fix any bvm module for a fee.

I imagine if you had a brand new BVM that was professionally calibrated the Geometry would be perfect.

Geometry is better on my D24 but convergence is much worse than the D20 I had, may be fixable not sure, need a BKM-14L.

Id say give savon pat a call. he's pretty knowledgeable.

LDigital · Post by **LDigital** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:11 pm

I have found other threads which refer to 'speed bumps' where people suggested changing the deflection board caps but I haven't seen any evidence of someone doing this and then reporting back. As this is almost identical to my last bvm @30000 hours and now this one @14800, I am inclined to think it's in all of them.

Blair · Post by **Blair** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:51 am

FinalBaton wrote:Those PS3 pics look friggin sweet Blair.
I like how PS3 looks on my NEC crt monitor too, but it doesn't have a TVL count as high as your E400

thanks dude!

aren't the NEC monitors 900 lines of resolution? (you have the regular or the plus model?) I don't think the E400's are much higher than 1000 lines, at least not the 19 inch ones. the 24 inch models and larger I believe had fairly high resolutions.

I love the way Virtua fighter plays/looks on a CRT. here's a few pictures of Virtua fighter 5 final showdown, on the E400. (Sega should release an updated PC version of this).

last shot is little blurry because it's in motion (haven't figured out how to get my android camera to use motion compensation properly).

[album link: https://imgur.com/a/y5laB]

Spoiler

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