The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

[BrianC]

RKA, Bloodlines, and Hard Corps are good stuff (though I like Contra III better than HC). Too bad Konami was so weird with some of their early Genesis/MD games like TMNT Hyperstone Heist and Sunset Riders. I also feel they were one of the better SNES publishers with games like Contra Spirits/III, Axelay, Turtles in Time, Pop 'n Twinbee, Buster Busts Loose, Sunset Riders, and some of the better games the Goemon series.

[hien]

Too bad Konami was so weird with some of their early Genesis/MD games like TMNT Hyperstone Heist and Sunset Riders.

Was it that much different from Turtles in Time? I remember the gameplay to be very close if not almost identical and only the stages getting really ugly looking and boring after the mid of the game, but it's been a really long time since I played it.

[BrianC]

Too bad Konami was so weird with some of their early Genesis/MD games like TMNT Hyperstone Heist and Sunset Riders.

Was it that much different from Turtles in Time? I remember the gameplay to be very close if not almost identical and only the stages getting really ugly looking and boring after the mid of the game, but it's been a really long time since I played it.

It's similar gameplay wise, but it combined multiple Turtles in Time stages into single stages, and had some oddities like no Bebop anywhere in the game, despite having a Rocksteady boss fight, and having the background and enemies from the sewer surfin' stage used as a walking stage. A couple of the stages even have the turtles walking on water!

[BIL]

The Scheme rocks! I was actually asked to write an official arrange track for that soundtrack many years ago, but sadly the album was cancelled.

You are the coolest game music guy, zinger. Out of curiosity, did you have any particular tracks in mind for arranging? I've been listening to the OST on loop all morning while chipping away at my Gun.Smoke ST.

I like Bloodlines better than Super Castlevania IV.

But I like Contra III way better than Hard Corps.

Same, same. Although Hard Corps and Bloodlines are stylistically inseparable, design-wise the latter is a better successor to Contra III's perfect balance of freeform action/setpiece spectacle. Used to think it odd Nobuya Nakazato wasn't involved in Bloodlines... but given HC and Shattered Soldier both leave me wanting more free running, I suspect he wasn't the only talent behind Contra III's "Team SFX." Actually I think Sin & Punishment (also featuring CIII alumni) is closer to that perfection.

I still love HC and IV, but they're more style favourites. Respectively the most vividly deranged and gloomily downcast of their series, and when firing on all cylinders they're really good*, but both needed tighter direction.

*Look out! ITS THAT CRAZY BALDHEAD FUCK, DR. CRAB

Spoiler

It's also pretty cool seeing the first 3 MM games re-imagined as early Genesis/MD titles, I think they did a pretty good job with the music and art style. Obviously the original NES games are sacred cows to many (including myself), but I'm still glad Wily Wars exists, even if it's kinda odd and not very appreciated.

It's just sad, that they messed up the gameplay in so many ways with the port. Could/should have been great. The added startup before you finally start running after an input, the reduced buster shot speed and damage (or enemy health?) and a fixed interval for the shots, which is probably the biggest offender, since you can't mash quicker when close to enemies here, really hurt it a lot. Also jumps feel strangely low and slide jumps don't even work. Enemy spawns and despawns are messed up as well in a lot of places. It's still playable but definitely feels strangely annoying in comparison. Most idiot collectors who're going nuts about the game (is it just the jp version or the others as well?) nowadays and who pay insane sums for it don't even know about this stuff.

Interesting... I was going to say that reminded me of Ninja Gaiden Trilogy, also commanding brutal prices in JP format. But that one feels like a decently straight port, and actually offers something interesting (Ninja Gaiden III with the sensible JP damage scale and much ruggeder US enemy/item layouts). Its downfall is the demoralisingly fugly graphics and absolutely unbearable "polka arrange ver" music.

I'm sure a mechanically wonky comp would've annoyed me even more, though (like SFC Mario collection and its goddamn bugged brick-breaking physics in SMB1+2, buh! Other two games are ok though, AFAIK). As it is, I'm occasionally kiiinda tempted to pick up SFC Trilogy. Kinda. Kiney winey. Not really, though. The badness of that soundtrack cannot be overstated.

[Squire Grooktook]

I was actually replaying Hardcorps the other day (going for my personal favorite route, Sheena vs Super Bahamut, 1lc attempt), and I think the game is still quite exciting and fun.

Many of the things we've criticized in this thread, while still noticeable, feel less like actual "problems" and more like "missed opportunities for more greatness" upon reviewing with an open mind. Not to say that some of these setpieces aren't clunkers though, just more forgivable then I remembered. C3 is still the master but this game is a great ol' time anytime.

It's also uniquely fun to revisit a game and only remember certain memorizer gimmicks at the last possible second :3

[Shoryukev]

It's also pretty cool seeing the first 3 MM games re-imagined as early Genesis/MD titles, I think they did a pretty good job with the music and art style. Obviously the original NES games are sacred cows to many (including myself), but I'm still glad Wily Wars exists, even if it's kinda odd and not very appreciated.

It's just sad, that they messed up the gameplay in so many ways with the port. Could/should have been great. The added startup before you finally start running after an input, the reduced buster shot speed and damage (or enemy health?) and a fixed interval for the shots, which is probably the biggest offender, since you can't mash quicker when close to enemies here, really hurt it a lot. Also jumps feel strangely low and slide jumps don't even work. Enemy spawns and despawns are messed up as well in a lot of places. It's still playable but definitely feels strangely annoying in comparison. Most idiot collectors who're going nuts about the game (is it just the jp version or the others as well?) nowadays and who pay insane sums for it don't even know about this stuff.

The walking startup step thing bugged me a bit during some of the tougher sections. The buster speed/interval made it a bit harder, but I was under the impression it was due to the fact the game was based on the JP Rockman versions and that's how they were. I have never played the japanese NES versions though....so I could be wrong about that.

One thing in particular bugged me though...the slowdown. My god, the slowdown! It was everywhere!

[Shoryukev]

Too bad Konami was so weird with some of their early Genesis/MD games like TMNT Hyperstone Heist and Sunset Riders.

Was it that much different from Turtles in Time? I remember the gameplay to be very close if not almost identical and only the stages getting really ugly looking and boring after the mid of the game, but it's been a really long time since I played it.

I played through both of these fairly recently, there are some decent differences. The stages in Hyperstone Heist seem to be much, much longer....and there are less of them. Some of the bosses are a pallet swap of a previous boss, and then there is an added boss rush towards the end to extend things out (which feels cheap). There is an added Tatsu boss fight that I thought was pretty cool....but the game kinda drags on and feels a little uninspired towards the end.

It might be just me, but Hyperstone Heist seemed to consist of a lot of borrowed elements from either the original TMNT arcade game or TMNT2:arcade on the NES, such as the street level sections involving cars pulling out of parking spaces and trying to hit you and things like that...whereas Turtles in Time on the SNES is based off the arcade version of itself. There also is manual dashing added in HH, you can double tap a direction on the d-pad and initiate a run.....which wildly changes the pace of the game for the better I think. There also seems to be more enemies on screen at one time on the HH version in various spots for whatever reason. The HH version has slightly sharper graphics (probably the 320x224 vs 256x224 res), at the cost of some visible dithering....while TiT has a little softer look, but more colors going on.

Either way both games are great, and I don't really play them that much.....save for nostalgia, or when my 5 year old son wants to play something with me. I'd love to see a homebrew version combining both games, and adding multitap support for 4 players. If you're a TMNT fan I think owning both versions is a must since they differ in enough ways to feel like a different experience.

[hien]

There also is manual dashing added in HH, you can double tap a direction on the d-pad and initiate a run.....which wildly changes the pace of the game for the better I think.

The SNES version has that option as well, I'm fairly sure. And yup, it's crucial since the dash attacks are pretty much op.

If you're a TMNT fan I think owning both versions is a must since they differ in enough ways to feel like a different experience.

Would be too late for me to change my mind now I guess. Both games have gotton too damn expensive. Maybe I'll buy a loose cart of Turtles in Time again for the nostalgia when I'm done hunting down other stuff.
Anyway, thanks for the impressions to both of you!

Its downfall is the demoralisingly fugly graphics and absolutely unbearable "polka arrange ver" music.

I remember testing that one as well (I have no clue about the classic NG gameplay though). Was amazed at how they took out almost any line scrolling which made the NES games so impressive technically.

[Shoryukev]

I might have missed the dash option in the SNES one, if they both have them then that is much needed....it feels weird to automatically start running after a certain amount of time, and not really have control over dash attacks.

I agree about them being too expensive, they wouldn't be at the top of my list if I didn't already have them. I think I paid $15 for my copy of TiT back in the early 2000's, average loose cart price today seems to be above $50 if you believe ebay...HH seems about the same, which is weird since Genesis titles are usually cheaper than their SNES counterparts.

[soprano1]

Peeps that appreciate The Super aka The Revenge of Shinobi BGMs - listen to Koshiro's The Scheme OST sometime. trap's music thread post just reminded me of how good it is, I'm dyin here. No for real, it's like a bonus album of Revenge ninja funk plus Ys I & II power metal.

mfw "Into The Lair" drops its friendly cowbells to straight up wizard fire yo ass:

Spoiler

At least listen to Perpetual Dark. God damn! Such funk, such dark!

On the subject of The Scheme:
https://vgmrips.net/packs/pack/the-sche ... c-8801-opn
https://vgmrips.net/packs/pack/the-sche ... -8801-opna

Hope it's ok to post these. If not, please delete them.

[zinger]

The Scheme rocks! I was actually asked to write an official arrange track for that soundtrack many years ago, but sadly the album was cancelled.

You are the coolest game music guy, zinger. Out of curiosity, did you have any particular tracks in mind for arranging? I've been listening to the OST on loop all morning while chipping away at my Gun.Smoke ST.

Cheers, coolest side-scroller guy. I can't remember clearly, this was back in 2008, I was probably hoping for Into the Lair, Nuclear Power or Perpetual Dark! while waiting for the record company to assign a track for me. There certainly are a lot of bad-ass tracks from that game.

[WelshMegalodon]

About two years late, but I've 1-ALLed Shadow Dancer: The Secret of Shinobi. In no-shuriken mode, of course, although I did have to resort to using ninjutsu a few times. It's a nice introduction to the Shinobi series, retaining the one-hit death mechanic of the original yet being fairly forgiving in its level design (up until the last three rooms, that is).

I think I lost more lives to the final boss than in all of the other stages combined.

[FinalBaton]

An amazing game, yes

[WelshMegalodon]

^ I would have guessed as much from looking at your avatar. I definitely prefer these arcade-style Shinobi titles to the Super Shinobi spin-offs.

This is also the first sidescroller I've beat since joining, so I'm just happy to be indirectly contributing to BIL's thread. (Of course, Shadow Dancer is considerably less demanding than Ninja Ryukenden.)

[Squire Grooktook]

Shadow Dancer's uniquely stealthy gameplay gracefully executed in a compellingly fast 2d format make it a favorite for me.

[Leandro]

It bothers me a lot that Truxton is sped up on NTSC settings, since I'm used to the arcade version. Current revisiting this gem of a game. I accept Masahiro Yuge's apology, though

[Heavy Viper]

It bothers me a lot that Truxton is sped up on NTSC settings, since I'm used to the arcade version.

Yeah, I grew up playing it on a cab, so I always get weirded out by the sped-up music. I wonder if a "corrected tempo" ROMhack for the NTSC version would be viable?

I accept Masahiro Yuge's apology, though

What's up with this? Something he mentioned in an interview?

[BIL]

^ I would have guessed as much from looking at your avatar. I definitely prefer these arcade-style Shinobi titles to the Super Shinobi spin-offs.

This is also the first sidescroller I've beat since joining, so I'm just happy to be indirectly contributing to BIL's thread. (Of course, Shadow Dancer is considerably less demanding than Ninja Ryukenden.)

I actually find SDMD the harder game to come back to, at least on its third and final difficulty tier. Instant deaths mean I can't bullshit my way through its tightest spots like in NG.

Superb methodical sidescroller. Out of curiosity, have you played Ningen Heiki: Dead Fox aka Codename: Viper (Famicom)? It's kind of a midpoint between Rolling Thunder (ammo is limited, no bombs, enemy contact is fatal) and the AC Shinobis (razor-sharp air control). Despatche once said it was by the devs of Rolling Thunder's FC port... either way, it's a blatant, excellent riff on the Namco standard.

What's up with this? Something he mentioned in an interview?

^ yup! (all hail blackoak)

[FinalBaton]

Shadow Dancer's uniquely stealthy gameplay gracefully executed in a compellingly fast 2d format make it a favorite for me.

This.

The stealth aspect (or simili-stealth, as I call it)is what seals the deal for me. When I first read about the game, I was a bit hesitant because I thought stealth would make it less fun than full on action. Well it turns out; it's actually my favourite of the MD Shinobi games. Wich is quite the accolade!

I love that the game is 1 hit-death, and I wouldn't have it any other way There's just something about the calculated movements you have to make; the spacing of the enemies; dropping down on them from above; using doggy to immobilize them;

regarding your movements; because of the Genius enemy spacing, each of your movements need to be calculated. Every crouch, every step, every jump. Yet you move fluidly and rapidly, wich feels so good.

[WelshMegalodon]

Couldn't have put it better myself. The game tests your ability to memorize stage layouts and time your moves more than your proficiency as a twitch gamer, and the constant risk of death makes for quite the compelling experience.

Superb methodical sidescroller. Out of curiosity, have you played Ningen Heiki: Dead Fox aka Codename: Viper (Famicom)? It's kind of a midpoint between Rolling Thunder (ammo is limited, no bombs, enemy contact is fatal) and the AC Shinobis (razor-sharp air control). Despatche once said it was by the devs of Rolling Thunder's FC port... either way, it's a blatant, excellent riff on the Namco standard.

I've been interested in Ningen Heiki Dead Fox since I saw it namedropped here a couple times, but I haven't tried it yet. Shame on me, I guess. While Rolling Thunder FC isn't the best conversion in the world, I remember liking it quite a bit, so I'll probably take a look sometime.

Spoiler

No promises, now. Gaming backlogs are dangerous - at worst, they can make playing a game feel like an obligation, which should never be the case.

[wgogh]

I've been playing Shinobi III - Return of the Ninja Master, a game that I used to play here and there without much effort, but now I picked and focused on it, managing to get to the end. As it seems to be usual in the series, starts with your basic feudal japan background and ends up in a somewhat high tech world.
It is not the hardest game to 1cc if you know what you're doing.


Surf Ninjas

I might give it another try after reading about Shadow Dancer on this thread. I've been playing a lot of Mega Drive these days

[Grime]

Shadow Dancer is really awesome, very fond memories of the entire Shinobi series, though Revenge has a huge nostalgia factor for me.

Just started re-playing Shinobi on my Power Base Converter this last week, forgot how fun that game can be too, though I don't remember having such a hard time with the bonus stage when I was younger.

[FinalBaton]

Shadow Dancer is really awesome, very fond memories of the entire Shinobi series, though Revenge has a huge nostalgia factor for me.

Just started re-playing Shinobi on my Power Base Converter this last week, forgot how fun that game can be too, though I don't remember having such a hard time with the bonus stage when I was younger.

Good to know! I was wondering if the Master System Shinobi was worth the time, now that you put a good word for it i I wanna try it out!
It will also give me a taste of the original arcade game, which I have never played

[Grime]

Shadow Dancer is really awesome, very fond memories of the entire Shinobi series, though Revenge has a huge nostalgia factor for me.

Just started re-playing Shinobi on my Power Base Converter this last week, forgot how fun that game can be too, though I don't remember having such a hard time with the bonus stage when I was younger.

Good to know! I was wondering if the Master System Shinobi was worth the time, now that you put a good word for it i I wanna try it out!
It will also give me a taste of the original arcade game, which I have never played

Once you get a chance to play it, let me know what you think of it.

[neorichieb1971]

I've bought a few PAL games on my travels.

Tazmania
Chiki Chiki boys
Greendog the breach surfer dude!
Sonic 1 and 2

I know Sonic 2 is sped up for PAL so I want rid of it. But will the others work fine on a US 60hz Genesis? I know Sonic 1 is ok due to all the writings about it.

Thanks,

Richie.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Give 'em a try, because they probably have the 50 and 60 Hz code on cart and will use whichever is appropriate for the console. Genesis Sonic 2 includes the PAL optimised version so I see no reason why the reverse wouldn't be true.

[Heavy Viper]

I know Sonic 2 is sped up for PAL so I want rid of it. But will the others work fine on a US 60hz Genesis? I know Sonic 1 is ok due to all the writings about it.

A PAL copy of Sonic 2 will run just fine at 60hz, don't sweat it. You only have to worry about games released late in the MD's life, tbh; that's when they started to get really proactive with stuff like proper optimization and region-specific code/checks.

[Sumez]

Is there any good list anywhere of which games to watch out for?
I've started compiling a list for PAL NES games myself, as I couldn't find any reliable list anywhere, but I would love to expand to other platforms. Of course, the issue is usually more serious on NES, as many non-optimized games will still have optimized music, which means you can't just pop them into an NTSC console without suffering from horrible sped up versions of your favorite 8bit music... On 16bit consoles, the timing of the music doesn't seem to be tied to the execution of the game code in the same way.

edit: Urgh, maybe I'm just thinking of SNES here, in regards to the music timing. I haven't been running any games in 50hz for years, and don't remember much about the pain any longer.

[null1024]

I've bought a few PAL games on my travels.

Tazmania
Chiki Chiki boys
Greendog the breach surfer dude!
Sonic 1 and 2

I know Sonic 2 is sped up for PAL so I want rid of it. But will the others work fine on a US 60hz Genesis? I know Sonic 1 is ok due to all the writings about it.

Thanks,

Richie.

IIRC, the only thing sped up for PAL in S2 [and hell, most PAL games that don't check region] is the music, and S2 does a refresh-rate check on boot, so running it on NTSC won't result in fast music.
None of the Sonic games are actually PAL optimized in any way other than that [at least there's no chance of game speed issues] -- you'll hear things about S3 being properly optimized, but that's a lie [S3 is region locked, though].
It's really obvious with S1 because the music is slow on a PAL machine, but since S2 and 3&K fixed that and only that, it's not quite immediately obvious in those games to a lot of people.

[Heavy Viper]

Is there any good list anywhere of which games to watch out for?

There aren't any comprehensive compatibility lists for the MD library to my knowledge, or at least no substantial ones. It would be a cool thing to have around though, even if flash carts are a thing nowadays.

I've found that the MD is usually pretty good when it comes to 50hz -> 60hz compatibility. Having played around with my PAL games, an Everdrive, and my region-modded PAL console, a lot of PAL games seem to play as intended at 60hz, especially earlier titles. Correct music and everything! The further into the '90s you get, however, the more things get complicated.

For example, games like Thunder Force IV, Phantasy Star IV, and Sonic 3 all have region checks that will stop the game outright and show a "Designed for PAL systems" message, though they will all play fine if you override that check with a cheat device or MegaKey-style jumper cart. Even then, other games like Ecco 2, The Story of Thor, and the infamous Super Skidmarks actually CAN NOT display at 60hz, with the picture flipping wildly as if there was a V-hold problem.

Music speed seems to be a mixed bag. The majority of games seem to be able to tell whether the console is running at 50/60hz and will time the music accordingly, though of course you do have outliers like Sonic 1, Phantasy Star IV, and technically Truxton. It really seems to have come down to whether the audio department was aware of/cared about the issue enough to fix it. And that's not to mention outright WEIRD cases like Gunstar Heroes, which has some tracks that play fine regardless of the Hz rating, as well as some that will slow down at 50hz.

It's crazy stuff. Crazy, annoying stuff. Thank goodness we don't have to deal with that region silliness in Year Of Our Yagawa 2016, right?

haw haw :V