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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 3:33 am 


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Location: Colin's Bargain Basement. Everything must go.
^Max Landis had a lot to say about that and received quite a backlash. He's absolutely right, of course.

Spoiler: show
My hope is that this is justified in the next movie when she is revealed to be the "reverse-Vader" force-prodigy to Kylo's obvious "reverse-Luke" boy-struggling-to-be-a-villain.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 7:44 am 


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atheistgod1999 wrote:
...


Did you seriously just use a Star Wars movie to claim there's no issue with violence against women in society.
My palm is going through my face atm.

I'm still waiting for a response to the question I asked you earlier. However if you just want to drop the whole thing and come back in 5 years, that would be better for everybody :wink:
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 2:21 pm 


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Ed Oscuro wrote:
It's pretty damn easy to just turn off your brain and post image macros instead of learning that SJWs are also responsible for pushing many innovations that could even help get rid of this blame culture, like the restorative justice movement. I'm sure that people who consider themselves anti-SJW might have some good ideas, but I've always had the impression they spend most of their time spinning wheels against the supposed SJW menace.

This restorative justice idea actually seems like a good idea, rather than going straight for punishment because 'what you did was wrong', going into detail why it was wrong can prevent future cases of wrongdoing. Sort of like what I suggested before in the thread to confront your fears, but not in a way that may be too stressful for the victim.

Stuff like that is what I expect from hearing 'justice', but I'm still convinced that SJWs are unconsciously sabotaging their own efforts on making the world a safer and more just place by building an uneven stadium right next to another uneven stadium, instead of building an even stadium as their intentions would suggest. Opportunists are trying to profit off masses with good intentions, corrupting said intentions in the process.
While motivating more women to get a job at game development, the news keeps reporting on how vile toxic male gamers treat female developers badly just for being female. In the process of battling harassment and toxic comments in places of discussion, this has given moderators/people in charge more power to enforce their own beliefs and opinions through banning any dissenters as long as said beliefs coincide with the majority of the userbase/company (in the name of making the internet a safer place). In the process of battling oversexualization in the media, an outrage culture has been created (and a counter-outrage culture by extent), creating a climate of fear as well where creators would rather self-censor themselves in order to avoid controversy. In the process of combating racism, you have 'reverse racism' instead, where it's okay to discriminate whites based on the color of their skin as a punishment for the misdeeds of their ancestors. In the process of promoting diversity in the workplace, you have diversity quotas, where your gender and race might guarantee you a job because white men have always been promoted in favor of others for being white and male. In the process of combating violence and harassment against women, it has never been easier before for opportunists to play the victim card. In the process of creating a safer space, a climate has been created where people would rather avoid any confronting and conflicting opinions altogether.

Doing something against racism, misogyny, homogenous workplaces, harassment, and so on, sure, why not? Those things do not belong in an ideal society. Most of these ideas and innovations sound great on paper, it's just that the execution more than often, from my perspective, falls flat on its face. Given that there's little reason to oppose measures for social justice unless you want to be called a something-ist, there's no wonder that it grew unchecked. It makes me wonder whether the benefits of applying the measures and innovation of social justice outweighs the collateral damage. I do not think that SJWs do not have a point, I think that most of them (and by extent a lot of anti-SJWs), save for the opportunists, are incredibly misguided about going about it. It's because of the shoddy execution of most social justice innovations, that even something like restorative justice, which sounds foolproof on paper, can still make me wonder if it can be somehow abused. Maybe you have more experience with the benefits of social justice, but I don't really see it.
I'd love seeing something like restorative justice being pushed by SJWs to counter this blame culture as you said, but I don't see that happening yet.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 6:04 pm 


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Waiting for bus checking out cute butt on girl walking past ¦3 they turn around and its a fuckin dude in cycling shorts oh hell no 3: (w/Jesus hair+beard, lmao)

go back 2 lookin when they turn back around tho ¦3 #homovibes
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 7:19 pm 


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BIL wrote:
Waiting for bus checking out cute butt on girl walking past ¦3 they turn around and its a fuckin dude in cycling shorts oh hell no 3: (w/Jesus hair+beard, lmao)

go back 2 lookin when they turn back around tho ¦3 #homovibes


I always avert my eyes if I'm walking behind someone because I don't want it to look like I'm looking at their ass.
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Xyga wrote:
It's really awesome how quash never gets tired of hammering the same stupid shit over and over and you guys don't suspect for second that he's actually paid for this.


Last edited by atheistgod1999 on Thu May 05, 2016 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 8:31 pm 


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Durandal wrote:
Stuff like that is what I expect from hearing 'justice', but I'm still convinced that SJWs are unconsciously sabotaging their own efforts

But this is where I get cynical - I think that all the online talk about "SJWs" is just a stereotype based on there being a few bad apples. It doesn't mean that it's likely to be very true for most people.

As somebody said a little bit upthread, we can separate out "the social justice movement" from "social justice warriors" but I still feel that a lot of people are deriding "SJWs" out of all proportion to how many people actually act that way, and making other people guilty by presumed association.

Also: Will they HURRY THE FSKC UP and release the Prince tox report?

Also also, as different as Prince is from MJ, this is starting to look the same again. The guy who brought the drugs might get in trouble even though the worst one could say he did was break the letter of the law - the drugs were meant to be delivered to a doctor.


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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 8:34 pm 


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BIL wrote:
Waiting for bus checking out cute butt on girl walking past ¦3 they turn around and its a fuckin dude in cycling shorts oh hell no 3: (w/Jesus hair+beard, lmao)

go back 2 lookin when they turn back around tho ¦3 #homovibes

That reminds me of when someone whistled at me like a year ago when I was out walking. I never saw who, but maybe they were in a car passing by or something, idk. I've had compliments before about how nice my hair is when I get cut, so that's probably why.

Honestly, I think it'd be a more frequent occurrence if I shaved regularly.

atheistgod1999 wrote:
I always avert my eyes if I'm walking behind someone because I don't it to look like I'm looking at their ass.

Yeah, man. What if they can see out the back of their head? Plus, everyone else is paying attention to every little thing you do, so you gotta be careful.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 8:37 pm 


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Rarely been more livid at a cyclist as today. Queing traffic in narrow lanes, narrow enough that cyclists can't filter through. Spotted one behind me as the lights about 6/7 cars ahead went green. Then spotted her in my mirror... carrying her bike on the pavement, and as the car in front of me moved she promptly thrust the bike in front of my car and hopped on.

WTF? You got ahead a whole car length and were it not for your hi-vis jacket I would not have noticed such lunacy. Hi-vis is not to make it easier for people to mind your dumbarse antics! Topping it off, after the light, she cut across me to change lane... without signaling. The moment I saw her on the pavement I was cautious, having seen cyclists use it as a traffic shortcut many times... and seen them nearly hit when they suddenly appear from the pavement in front of some poor sap minding their own business. Almost hit one myself when, as I was signalling to turn left at a roundabout, he came down the left hand side of me. Cars don't even legally need a passenger mirror so quite why cyclists so love moving through traffic on that side I will never know!

I am not surprised so many cyclists are killed in urban areas when you see them doing mad as fuck shit like this. I do wonder how many of them think the traffic laws don't apply to them and how many are just arseholes.


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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 9:11 pm 


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The only proper modern sourceport for Abuse is Linux-only for some reason, and hasn't seen any updates for 5 years, while the only proper Windows sourceport is 15 years old and has tons of graphical glitches.
here's to Dosbox then

Ed Oscuro wrote:
Durandal wrote:
Stuff like that is what I expect from hearing 'justice', but I'm still convinced that SJWs are unconsciously sabotaging their own efforts

But this is where I get cynical - I think that all the online talk about "SJWs" is just a stereotype based on there being a few bad apples. It doesn't mean that it's likely to be very true for most people.

As somebody said a little bit upthread, we can separate out "the social justice movement" from "social justice warriors" but I still feel that a lot of people are deriding "SJWs" out of all proportion to how many people actually act that way, and making other people guilty by presumed association.


I believe the saying went something like this: 'I don't think all SJWs are bad, just those in positions of power. And lately the amount of SJWs in powerful positions has been increasing.'
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the thing is that we actually go way back and have known each other on multiple websites, first clashing in a Naruto forum.

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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 9:15 pm 


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I get the feeling that I'm about to start repeating myself because what I'm writing is being ignored, so let's try a simple analogy:

People who throw tantrums to get their way in a system are like pebbles in a stream. A powerful person or a bureaucracy is like the water in a stream, and finds the path of least resistance.

The fact that people routinely point to SJWs acting out is not a sign that SJWs own the system - on the contrary it means that they don't have simple, effortless means to get what they want. And when they get too disruptive, the stream will simply wash them away.

So I don't agree that there's any evidence SJWs are powerful, that there's a lot of people who act according to the stereotype, or that the system is really accommodating.


Last edited by Ed Oscuro on Thu May 05, 2016 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 9:31 pm 


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Ed Oscuro wrote:
There's no reason to believe SJWs are in positions of power.


Except for the fact that my principal and housemaster/dean (who's basically a sub-principal) are and have punished me for tiny reasons. That time I mentioned earlier when I was sent there for calmly speaking my opinion about the reaction to that chant? The housemaster compared it to an Al-Qaeda joke (which I think is funny, but I can actually understand teachers not wanting students to make jokes about terrorist groups as opposed to simply saying they don't agree with something) and said I shouldn't say it. That right there fucking confirms that they're against free speech. Fuck that cunt!!! :evil:
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It's really awesome how quash never gets tired of hammering the same stupid shit over and over and you guys don't suspect for second that he's actually paid for this.


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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 9:37 pm 


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atheistgod1999, when I read your posts, I start to understand why people have made a rule that K-12 students shouldn't have freedom of speech.

Here's a really old overview of freedom of speech for K-12 students, written back when I was a high school senior. No need to go to the history museum to see a dinosaur, here I am! :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 10:17 pm 


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Ed Oscuro wrote:
I get the feeling that I'm about to start repeating myself because what I'm writing is being ignored, so let's try a simple analogy:

People who throw tantrums to get their way in a system are like pebbles in a stream. A powerful person or a bureaucracy is like the water in a stream, and finds the path of least resistance.

The fact that people routinely point to SJWs acting out is not a sign that SJWs own the system - on the contrary it means that they don't have simple, effortless means to get what they want. And when they get too disruptive, the stream will simply wash them away.

So I don't agree that there's any evidence SJWs are powerful, that there's a lot of people who act according to the stereotype, or that the system is really accommodating.

So it's just the people in charge bending over to the loudest minority (against their will), then?
From a logical standpoint it would make sense that SJWs do not own the system if they have to complain in order to get their way, but it does not take in account the situations of SJWs complaining to other (self-professed) social justice supporters in high positions for not conforming to their ideals hard enough, like J.J. Abrams being all for diversity, but still getting loads of angry tweets for having a largely white cast for his movies, or Joss Whedon getting torn apart by his own ilk because Black Widow was a slut, or Brianna Wu saying there's nothing wrong with capitalism as a lot of xer (former) allies berated her for that.
The intentions behind said complaints seem rather focused on enforcing the status quo, if you ask me. I believe the 'come on man it's the current year' meme partly stems from that.
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the thing is that we actually go way back and have known each other on multiple websites, first clashing in a Naruto forum.

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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 10:43 pm 


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That I'm not gonna be an adult for another 18 months as of typing :(
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Xyga wrote:
It's really awesome how quash never gets tired of hammering the same stupid shit over and over and you guys don't suspect for second that he's actually paid for this.


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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 11:27 pm 


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Durandal wrote:
but it does not take in account the situations of SJWs complaining to other (self-professed) social justice supporters in high positions for not conforming to their ideals hard enough, like J.J. Abrams being all for diversity, but still getting loads of angry tweets for having a largely white cast for his movies, or Joss Whedon getting torn apart by his own ilk because Black Widow was a slut, or Brianna Wu saying there's nothing wrong with capitalism as a lot of xer (former) allies berated her for that.

Well, this is a mixed bag, isn't it? To some degree you're naturally right, the appearance of the public brawl matters - though this is a double-edged sword. I can't say that the things you listed are even obviously wrong to have done - Whedon's and Abrams' jobs are selling appearances. I'd also say that the volume of it matters - if you're Whedon or Abrams I'm sure it feels like the sky is falling down around you, but that's what a pressure campaign is meant to do; at the same time, I think the existence of a dedicated "anti-SJW" camp means that nobody is having free reign to just change everything to their whims - just as nobody has the capability of turning the clock back, either, to a time when this kind of stuff wasn't a part of life.

Unfortunately there's not a whole lot an individual can do other than choose their battles carefully, if being credible with some random group of strangers is important. I think that just being respectful, listening, and ultimately not giving a shit if I've been called a cro-magnon works well enough for me. You know what they say: You can fool some of the people some of the time...


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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 1:01 am 


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Shepardus wrote:
Well in the case of The Force Awakens, that would have been pretty predictable even if Rey were a guy. It's just Plot Armor.


This is why I've grown to hate character-driven stories in general. Didn't know about this term for it although I suspected that there should be one
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 7:50 am 


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Cagar wrote:
This is why I've grown to hate character-driven stories in general.


What other kind of stories are there?
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 8:01 am 


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Fucking imgur. Stop using that shit people. STAHP.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 9:49 am 


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Skykid wrote:
Cagar wrote:
This is why I've grown to hate character-driven stories in general.


What other kind of stories are there?


Bad ones.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 10:11 am 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
Skykid wrote:
Cagar wrote:
This is why I've grown to hate character-driven stories in general.


What other kind of stories are there?


Bad ones.


That's what I was thinking.

Recently after studying some older Hollywood successes I really think the reason why all new movies are lacking and feel empty is because there's zero attention paid to scenes and dialogue that specifically create a relatable character for the audience.

That might sound obvious, but it's a multifaceted and fairly complex series of errors that begins with script writing and handling of time and weighting of scenes. For example most movies these days hit a 2 hour run time, but they feel hollow despite being crammed with action and shitty expository dialogue.

A good example: Poltergeist (original). The entire first 30-40 minutes is spent simply introducing the family. The dialogue is great, performances and casting is absolutely exemplary, and there's a huge amount of effort spent bringing us into the world of the various characters - and all this without any action or scares. It's just breakfast, football games on TV, and parents smoking dope in the bedroom.

Die Hard is expertly written. Before the opening credits have expired you know John McClane's relationship with his wife, general level of education, attitude, that he likes ogling women, that he has children who he misses, that he's a hard working, dedicated city cop, and that he's fairly common, and that he has a fear of flying (heights).

The issue is all stories need to be character driven, but we need to have a subconscious relationship with those characters.
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Last edited by Skykid on Mon May 09, 2016 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 10:24 am 


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Yeah.

I mean, there are different forms of stories and narratives, some are more focused on atmosphere/world building/complex plotting, but at the end of the day connecting with the characters is what I'm here for and the most essential part of the formula. I'd say I only ever can like a story as much as I like it's characters.
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Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

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Last edited by Squire Grooktook on Mon May 09, 2016 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 10:27 am 


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I freaking hate when movies do that, telling charcter's plain lives for dog knows how many minutes, if there's nothing important to see about them then it's wasted time.
But I love when stuff about them gets revealed later, better if it's coming as a surprise and a key element of the plot, I prefer time used to build conceled stuff/deceptive traits, rather than useless reality show character gallery.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 10:51 am 


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Xyga wrote:
I freaking hate when movies do that, telling charcter's plain lives for dog knows how many minutes, if there's nothing important to see about them then it's wasted time.


That completely depends on the execution. For example London Has Fallen (a perfect example actually) is all cursory and weightless, so its introductory elements become useless filler. The guy is dedicated to his job, his wife has a baby, he's good mates with the Prez. That's it. It's rattled out at speed, horribly written, completely trite and totally one dimensional.

When it's done well it's an essential element: some slower scenes that turn the character into something you relate to. You understand. And then when shit goes down it's all the more powerful.

A perfect example of this done well, blockbuster style, is Jurassic Park. Every character is outlined to the max of their comic book personalities, and then when the power goes out and the Rex comes for dinner every character's motivations, positions and reactions to the carnage make sense.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 11:12 am 


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Xyga wrote:
I freaking hate when movies do that, telling charcter's plain lives for dog knows how many minutes, if there's nothing important to see about them then it's wasted time.

Sounds like slice-of-life. That's pretty much all Naoko Ogigami makes and she's one of my favorite directors. :P
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 1:57 pm 


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Men who strut about like they're some sort of 'Hard Man' calling people 'faggots' while they're wearing cut off denim shorts with turn ups and little dainty pumps like something from a fucking Wham video.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 2:00 pm 


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Being sick.
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Xyga wrote:
It's really awesome how quash never gets tired of hammering the same stupid shit over and over and you guys don't suspect for second that he's actually paid for this.


Last edited by atheistgod1999 on Tue May 10, 2016 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 2:03 pm 


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It had a distinct Northern Ireland in the 70's vibe for sure.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 9:46 pm 


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Insane downpour for over two days long now, so fucking heavy I'm feeling we're again up for floods, mudslides, leaks, blackouts and all kinds of happy things.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2016 6:16 am 


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Xyga wrote:
Insane downpour for over two days long now, so fucking heavy I'm feeling we're again up for floods, mudslides, leaks, blackouts and all kinds of happy things.

Meanwhile the Netherlands is the hottest country in Europe, with warnings being issued in some provinces to not start fires in order to avoid wildfires because of the intense heat.
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 Post subject: Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2016 6:16 am 


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Skykid wrote:
Recently after studying some older Hollywood successes I really think the reason why all new movies are lacking and feel empty is because there's zero attention paid to scenes and dialogue that specifically create a relatable character for the audience.

I'm no expert on recent Hollywood movies - though I'd like to see Bridge of Spies soon...ish, maybe this newfangled Godzilla from 1998, but otherwise I have pretty much been boycotting stuff since I went to the Trek premiere in LA...realistically, even earlier than that, starting with the Star Wars revamp most likely, or sometime after Toy Story (which actually was a decent enough film, but it scared parents).

Going back on point, your comment reminded me immediately of why a lot of '60s fiction grabbed me so much. Even something dealing with a post-apocalyptic world (Canticle for Leibowitz, stuff by Kornbluth and Ellison, other things I'm forgetting) often hit readers with both barrels: That sense of tragic nostalgia for lost normality, along with the stories of people before and after the bombs. In that case, the character was just implied - not development so much as wreckage and shifting sands, but this element of recall, like suspense, is one of those age-old storytelling tricks that seems to be fallen out of favor. I'd not compare most of the recent trashy novels favorably: Raymond Khoury's "The Last Templar" wins some startling book-cover hard sell ad copy plaudits:

"Short, quick scenes and cinematic action sequences" - S F Chronicle
"Khoury is a screenwriter, and his story is nothing if not cinematic [...] A nice twist at the end [...]" Booklist
"...unfolds like a seamless film reel across the imagination" Bookreporter.com

Six bits of ad copy on the book, and half of them are fawning over the author's "cinematic" skills? I think the projectionist fudging a reel change or the film getting stuck and burning up would be a more apt metaphor for the book. It's sad to consider that Crichton and Clancy really were so much better than most of today's popular writers - then again, this was always the case, most of everything is...so-so. '90s Clancy contemporary Jack Higgins reportedly is a great recreational diver, but I wasn't able to get any sense of verisimilitude from the diving sequences, and I doubt there's any to be found in the rest of his series about the comic hiring of an ex-IRA hitman by Her Majesty's Government. Thunder Point and Last Templar have some striking similarities to each other: Both have casts of beautiful people comically mismatched to situations - North By Northwest with a museum director? Erm, it's not really about "everyman" anymore, is it? - and paper villains who show up just to taunt the heroes and feed our biases (even more so in Thunder Point, whose major antagonists are inept drug gangsters patterned after Miami Vice characters). Khoury seems to have substituted a Phantom of the Opera-style scenery conceit for psychological study (the CIA guy doesn't merit attention; ultimately Khoury's attention drifts away, allowing the spook to be removed from the book as an embarrassing afterthought). Higgins' Thunder Point antagonists act almost literally like characters out of a Hardy Boys book. But that'd be insulting to that kind of Boy's Adventure; I've got a box of no-name stuff from the '60s which actually do a better building characters (though not by much).

I expect that there's another thing going on here: Simple cost consciousness. Why fill a film with boring scenes of people building geological formations out of mashed potatoes when you can have them shooting someone - or something - in the face? Bean counter mentality is probably pushing everybody to think "how can we get the most bang for our buck?" I think if bean counters had been a major factor in production, you wouldn't even see the Delta 88 driving anywhere in The Evil Dead; Ash and crew would just suddenly BAM! Stuck in a house with Evil Dead everywhere, and the car would be product placement done in protest (if not for the fact that it allowed the director to have some fun exploring different spaces than the house! Mmm, hmm). Ironically, of course, once you get past a certain budget - like the original Evil Dead didn't have - that temptation to spend on something more energetic than framing scenes probably comes back into play. Maybe there's something of a Goldilocks zone for budgeting? A last thought on that universe-expanding vehicles - between technobabble and "plot advancement," who really gives a damn? I've been watching all of the original Star Trek lately, and the technobabble is never more interesting than a cheesy effect, or the characters talking about a philosophical issue. Lots of stuff seems to pay attention to having words for characters to mouth so the audience can "follow" the story moving from point A to B, but there is no real understanding of the story without a motive - Poirot would not be proud.

Hopefully regaining some semblance of sanity for the wrap-up, your comment immediately made me think of a movie you've re-watched recently - The Monster Squad. Funny in retrospect - the first shot at character development in the movie is the "science is cool!" bit, which immediately struck me as a bit uninspired, especially for that era. But, even if that was a misstep, they recover pretty well. The scene where the detective sits with his boy on the roof of the house was very simple stuff, but also really helped frame what the movie was about - nostalgia, a tiny bit of adventure and breaking the rules (I mean, we're jaded, but how often did any of us sit on the roof of the house with dad, watching the early summer night?), and a lot of character development. I'd also compare it very well with the forced attempts to build Al Pacino's dysfunctional family life in Heat, like there hadn't been decades of attempts to portray the ol' "too busy for home life" angle.


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