Mini Framemeister and Smash Bros Melee (Sharpness?)

[CKS_cookiE]

I recently acquired an XRGB-Mini Framemeister in order to enhance my streaming of Super Smash Bros Melee.
I am attempting to upscale the native 480i to 720p60, however the edges around things like the characters and parts of the stage still seem fuzzy.

I used all of recommended settings listed for 480i from this link: http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/XRGB ... d_settings
and I've increased the sharpness since the above video and it makes it look a tad bit better; however it is still soft.
The Flicker option in melee is turned OFF, so that's not the issue.

Here is an example video of what I'm talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYJhBr5kLBo

Can anyone identify what the problem could be? I have messed with a ton of settings but still haven't found the solution.

[blizzz]

Can anyone identify what the problem could be?

You're using composite video, switch to component and set the game to 480p.

[telemetry]

Barring the usage of a GC component video or GCVideo mod, a Nintendo S-Video cable will return 480i results that nearly match 480i with component cables (in my non-objective comparisons). 480p is only available with component/mods of course.

So if you're fine with 480i, that's a much cheaper approach to get better image sharpness.


Make sure to get a GameCube S-video adapter that *doesn't* come with a composite video plug -- these often are just outputting plain composite video.
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p1117858

GameCube S-video versus Component comparisons (see 10:45 against 12:15. Minus 480p, S-video shows equivalent sharpness).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5amGcTG3_QU

[CKS_cookiE]

I'm outputting 480i in order to not interfere with the player's experience.
I had been coming component out of a wii/gamecube and then downscaling to 480i after the split (since finding progressive scan on a Tube TV is incredibly rare).
There were complaints of lag last time we did this approach so I got advice to upscale after the video is split.

That being said, I would like to find the best way to make this approach look as best as possible without adding in any more conversion, especially on the player side of the split.

Are there options on the XRGB Mini in order to get a harder picture given this setup?

[Fudoh]

what telemetry said. If you don't go for component (because of cost) or RGB (because you're using a NTSC unit), get a s-video cable. It will make a huge difference. The Mini sucks at composite. There's nothing you can do about it.

[darcagn]

I'm outputting 480i in order to not interfere with the player's experience.
I had been coming component out of a wii/gamecube and then downscaling to 480i after the split (since finding progressive scan on a Tube TV is incredibly rare).
There were complaints of lag last time we did this approach so I got advice to upscale after the video is split.

That being said, I would like to find the best way to make this approach look as best as possible without adding in any more conversion, especially on the player side of the split.

Are there options on the XRGB Mini in order to get a harder picture given this setup?

The Framemeister is excellent at processing video signals but it can't make a bad signal look better. Garbage in, garbage out.

Your best options are:
1. Find a progressive scan CRT display, set GC/Wii to progressive scan/480p mode, feed the 480p component signal to the CRT display and to the Framemeister (best quality signal with zero lag, requires more expensive component cables)
2. Use the TV you already have, set the GC/Wii to interlaced/480i mode, feed the 480i component signal to the CRT display and to the Framemeister (great quality signal with zero lag, requires more expensive component cables)
3. Use the TV you already have with S-video cables, feed the 480i s-video signal to the CRT display and to the Framemeister (good quality signal with zero lag, cheaper solution)

[CKS_cookiE]

The Framemeister is excellent at processing video signals but it can't make a bad signal look better. Garbage in, garbage out.

So the entire purpose I have in mind is to be able to bring my equipment to any venue or location and stream quality video regardless of the hardware at my disposal.
So if all that is provided is a Basic CRT with composite then I'd still be set. I guess I wasn't under the impression the video out of composite was so bad that it couldn't easily be upscaled to something of quality.

Your best options are:
1. Find a progressive scan CRT display, set GC/Wii to progressive scan/480p mode, feed the 480p component signal to the CRT display and to the Framemeister (best quality signal with zero lag, requires more expensive component cables)
2. Use the TV you already have, set the GC/Wii to interlaced/480i mode, feed the 480i component signal to the CRT display and to the Framemeister (great quality signal with zero lag, requires more expensive component cables)
3. Use the TV you already have with S-video cables, feed the 480i s-video signal to the CRT display and to the Framemeister (good quality signal with zero lag, cheaper solution)

2) doesn't make sense to me. The XRGB mini only accepts composite or svideo. Is there a method I can take to approach this?
3) Probably a good interim until I can either afford number (1) or a miracle occurs and I attain a progressive scan capable crt.

[HydrogLox]

2. Use the TV you already have, set the GC/Wii to interlaced/480i mode, feed the 480i component signal to the CRT display and to the Framemeister (great quality signal with zero lag, requires more expensive component cables)

2) doesn't make sense to me. The XRGB mini only accepts composite or svideo.

The XRGB-mini can also process component (YPbPr) with a D-Terminal to Component Adapter Cable (Female) (and of course 15/31kHz RGBS via the Mini-DIN-8 input).

[CKS_cookiE]

The XRGB-mini can also process component (YPbPr) with a D-Terminal to Component Adapter Cable (Female) (and of course 15/31kHz RGBS via the Mini-DIN-8 input).

Ok, yup I had a dingus moment. I had thought that there was an IN side and an OUT side to the device.

[CKS_cookiE]

The XRGB-mini can also process component (YPbPr) with a D-Terminal to Component Adapter Cable (Female) (and of course 15/31kHz RGBS via the Mini-DIN-8 input).

Let me ask this though.
If I come 480i out of a wii but with RGB component cables, would you believe that would make a difference?

[Guspaz]

Every single connector on the Framemeister is input excepting a single HDMI port for output. It supports pretty much every input format, although some require passive adapters (SCART, 3RCA component, DVI) and some require some sync conversion (example: 480p VGA possible via a passive adapter so long as csync is used, so a sync combiner is required)

If I come 480i out of a wii but with RGB component cables, would you believe that would make a difference?

That's kind of an oxymoron. RGB and component are typically understood to be two different formats. In any case, either RGB or component output from the Wii would be a decent increase in image quality over composite, although 480p would also provide a pretty hefty improvement in image quality.

It's not clear to my why you're using 480i instead of 480p: what do you mean that you're doing it "to not interfere with the player's experience"? In what manner would 480p interfere?

[bobrocks95]

It sounds like OP wants to bring the setup to events where standard-res CRTs are in use, so 480i is the only option.

In that case, if you don't have component cables for the Gamecube, the next-best looking thing would be RGB out of a Wii, followed by component out of a Wii, assuming you only have NTSC consoles. I think for RGB out from the Wii you need to change the region with a softmod as well. S-Video on the Gamecube would be the absolute minimum I would consider using, and still won't look all that great upscaled to 720p- it will still look worlds better than composite however.

[HydrogLox]

If I come 480i out of a wii but with RGB component cables, would you believe that would make a difference?

As was pointed out already (RGB != component) (i.e. YPbPr). Given that you a splitting the signal between the display and the XRGB-mini you'll always be limited to formats supported by the display. RGB won't be an option if you typically connect to a North American consumer SD CRT TV set. If you are lucky you'll have a component (YPbPr) input. For interest sake, here is a comparison between Wii RGB vs. Wii Component.
So your order of preference for the chosen video signal should always be:

1. Component (YPbPr)
2. S-video
3. Composite

That being said you should also know that the component output of an actual Nintendo GameCube is said to be superior (sharper) to the component output of the Nintendo Wii.
See: Gamecube vs Wii component output. This may also indicate that a real GC may be a better choice when the component video signal is being split (i.e. it may be something worth trying if the opportunity presents itself).

[telemetry]

It seems like they're trying to get minimal lag and split the output between a 480i tube set (gameplay) and the Framemeister (presuming for recording).

480i is the only choice if the tube doesn't support 480p (like the post says). If composite is all you have (no S-video and no component), it will look blurry through the Framemeister no matter what.

[CKS_cookiE]

It's not clear to my why you're using 480i instead of 480p: what do you mean that you're doing it "to not interfere with the player's experience"? In what manner would 480p interfere?

I usually come component out of a Wii and then downscale to 480i because virtually every CRT out there is non-progressive scan capable.
There is only a small subset of CRTs with P-Scan and they allegedly cost a lot of money.

However, Melee is particularly a frame heavy game, where many players consider even 1 frame loss a major issue. So when we downscale to a television and it doesn't take well we have seen frame loss before.
This lead me to the framemeister. Rather than downscale on the player end, we leave the players alone by coming 480i out of a crt and then upscale for the stream after the split.

I want the above method with the maximum quality from the framemeister as I can get without down-scaling from 480p.
I also really want to know what options I should be looking at in order to minimize or eliminate interlacing in my capture.

[bobrocks95]

I usually come component out of a Wii and then downscale to 480i because virtually every CRT out there is non-progressive scan capable.
There is only a small subset of CRTs with P-Scan and they allegedly cost a lot of money.

However, Melee is particularly a frame heavy game, where many players consider even 1 frame loss a major issue. So when we downscale to a television and it doesn't take well we have seen frame loss before.
This lead me to the framemeister. Rather than downscale on the player end, we leave the players alone by coming 480i out of a crt and then upscale for the stream after the split.

I want the above method with the maximum quality from the framemeister as I can get without down-scaling from 480p.
I also really want to know what options I should be looking at in order to minimize or eliminate interlacing in my capture.

If maximum quality is what you want get Gamecube component cables and set the output to 480i.

[CKS_cookiE]

If maximum quality is what you want get Gamecube component cables and set the output to 480i.

Yup tried this and got some pretty great quality out of it. Thanks a bunch.

In terms of the output from the Framemeister, what settings should I be looking at in order to decrease interlacing as much as possible?

[CKS_cookiE]

Bumping with some examples:

Here's what I've been able to acheive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx1OWJjQKQs

And here's what I'm trying to achieve. I have confirmed the XRGB mini was used in this production:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vF8HBy_NhO8

I think the differences are very clear, but my production is not far from the intended target.
What can I do to achieve this?

[darcagn]

It looks like the video you linked to is using 480p. Can you confirm whether they are using 480p or 480i for the material going into the Framemeister?

Your image kind of looks washed out too. What are you using for IMAGE_MODE? Try setting it to NATURAL mode.

[Sixfortyfive]

Your videos are 30fps. Even if the Framemeister is being fed a 480i source, I'm pretty sure the output should still be 60fps.

[CKS_cookiE]

It looks like the video you linked to is using 480p. Can you confirm whether they are using 480p or 480i for the material going into the Framemeister?

Your image kind of looks washed out too. What are you using for IMAGE_MODE? Try setting it to NATURAL mode.

I am using NATURAL mode.
Would the washed out look come more from the COLOR_SET menu?

Your videos are 30fps. Even if the Framemeister is being fed a 480i source, I'm pretty sure the output should still be 60fps.

Yeah this point helped so much. I switched to 60 fps and got the following result:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1xwsMU-z_8

Still sometimes it seems the sharpness is off, and that option doesn't seem to help after 1
Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1xwsMU-z_8

Anything stick out?