OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

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marqs
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by marqs »

ShadowofBob wrote:I was reading through the Wiki this evening and noticed the bit about using TTL level c-sync needing a 470ohm resistor or similar if used through the SCART input. Is that still the case?

http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/OSSC ... B-SCART.29

Just wondering as all my consoles I plan to use have csync SCART cables that seem to work fine on a GBS8200 and my projector via a SCART to VGA(sync on 13) cable. If it's better/safer I can just use the SCART to VGA cable on the VGA input, but would prefer to take advantage of the LPF.

*edit* Looked into this a bit more on my own and from what I've found the maker of my cables (retro_console_accessories) most likely already has these modifications done in the cables. I'll test them myself and ask her to be sure though.
It it still the case. The fact is that you should never connect TTL level c-sync directly to a 75ohm terminated video/sync input, be it OSSC, Framemeister, TV etc. It will certainly work in most cases, but you're overloading the IC inside the console which produces the sync signal - not a good thing in a long run. With 75ohm termination, the high-impedance TTL sync signal won't generally reach such high voltage that it'd damage the sink - from sources like MD it won't even be high enough for valid sync - I'm just stressing that one should be aware of the possible risks when making such connections.
paulb_nl wrote:I have been wrapping my head around this but my brain does not have enough CPU and RAM :P. Would something like this work to get a valid 720p signal?

Set the output rate to 750/262. We need to input only 750/3 = 250 lines so start output after waiting for (262 - 250) / 2 = 6 input blanking lines.
Because the output is slightly slower there will need to be 250 - (250 / 262 * 250) = ~12 lines buffered. When the output is finished the input is already past the 6 first blanking lines of the next frame so it is caught up.
In principle, yes. In practice, this might need an external programmable PLL since such ratios may not be acceptable with low/medium-end FPGA PLLs.
akumajo wrote:Another feature that I would like to see is a black frame insertion feature for 120Hz displays, but it would probably require a frame buffer ?!
Yes, it'd require it. A bit off topic but I just read a review of Eizo FS2735. The specs looked promising not only for PC gamers, but also for those playing console games due to backlight strobing support in 60, 100, 120 and 144Hz modes. It was quite a disappointment to read that 60Hz mode is botched with dual strobing, which causes artifacts etc. :( I really hoped Eizo would have offered real 60Hz strobing regardless of the flicker, since that would have been great for console gamers.
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Xyga
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Xyga »

60Hz strobing is really hard to stare at. I know I can't for more than about 10 minutes. ><

EDIT: the redundant Q: any ETA on the assembled OSSCs ? :mrgreen:
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by NormalFish »

Apologize if this has been answered but I've searched multiple times without success.

Has there been any narrowing of the price window? I'm anxious to get one but I'm somewhat apprehensive about the price. I realize there isn't a specific number locked down but are we talking 80EUR or 150EUR or what?
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by NJRoadfan »

I had a few questions regarding use on an AGA class Amiga.

-How well does the device support PAL 288p/NTSC 240p mode switching? I know some upscalers require a reboot or a trip to a menu to complete the transition. Also on the output side, what does an upscaled 288p signal look like to a monitor? I know here in the US, some TVs will balk at 50Hz content and not show any video, not too sure about computer monitors.

-Using the VGA input, how does the OSSC handle switching between 15.75khz modes and 31Khz (DblNTSC/DblPAL and other AGA modes)?

Otherwise, the unit meets all my needs. That VGA input is going to see a lot of use with my vintage computers since they all output TTL level sync, but it works out in the end since they all have VGA style cables already.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by CkRtech »

marqs wrote:The fact is that you should never connect TTL level c-sync directly to a 75ohm terminated video/sync input, be it OSSC, Framemeister, TV etc. It will certainly work in most cases, but you're overloading the IC inside the console which produces the sync signal - not a good thing in a long run. With 75ohm termination, the high-impedance TTL sync signal won't generally reach such high voltage that it'd damage the sink - from sources like MD it won't even be high enough for valid sync - I'm just stressing that one should be aware of the possible risks when making such connections.
Is it really something to be that concerned about, though? The maximum TTL voltage on a sync pulse should be 0-5V, right? I can't remember the sync value on the MD, but I believe the SNES csync pulse was somewhere around 2.5V.

I run all of my stuff to the framemeister via a VGA switch, and I need a sync pulse above a .7V or even 1V in order for the switch to recognize that the input is active.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Fudoh »

I run all of my stuff to the framemeister
The Mini was built to cope with Arcade PCBs on the RGB input. Nothing to worry here.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Fudoh »

Also on the output side, what does an upscaled 288p signal look like to a monitor? I know here in the US, some TVs will balk at 50Hz content and not show any video, not too sure about computer monitors.
you get 576p50. And you're right, many US TVs won't display this kind signal, althought I imagine that compatibility for HDMI 50Hz sources is higher than for analogue 50Hz sources.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by BuckoA51 »

I had a few questions regarding use on an AGA class Amiga.
Make sure you read Fudoh's review, but I will be doing a full test on the Amiga when I get my unit, should be late this week early next.

For the Amiga you're probably going to want to use the SCART input, since it has the low pass filter. RGB output on my CD32 is noisy as hell. My 1200T is better (got to get it down from the attic at some point) but yeah, definitely going to want LPF in 288p games.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Zen »

BuckoA51 wrote:
I had a few questions regarding use on an AGA class Amiga.
Make sure you read Fudoh's review, but I will be doing a full test on the Amiga when I get my unit, should be late this week early next.

For the Amiga you're probably going to want to use the SCART input, since it has the low pass filter. RGB output on my CD32 is noisy as hell. My 1200T is better (got to get it down from the attic at some point) but yeah, definitely going to want LPF in 288p games.
Any chance of showing the N64 some love, when you do your test, BuckoA51?
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by RocketBelt »

Will videogameperfection be supplying units that your engineers have assembled from parts?
Or do you resell units that you have received pre-assembled?
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Fudoh »

yes, Matt, tell us about your legion of engineers :mrgreen:
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by fafangus »

lol
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by RocketBelt »

:D
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by BuckoA51 »

yes, Matt, tell us about your legion of engineers :mrgreen:
Yes very funny :lol: It seems there will be a small amount of assembly required to fix the LCD on, but I should be able to find someone local that can do that without breaking the bank.
Any chance of showing the N64 some love, when you do your test, BuckoA51?
Was planning to actually, at some point I'd like to take a problematic game, Resident Evil 2 for instance, and show UtraHDMI, vs OSSC vs XRGB Mini (via RGB).
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by kiun »

not sure if this question has been addressed, but are there plans to support JP-21 input, as opposed to Euro Scart ?
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by ryu »

kiun wrote:not sure if this question has been addressed, but are there plans to support JP-21 input, as opposed to Euro Scart ?
Just get an adapter. No point wasting space on a input of the sort when there's already a scart input.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by daydreamnation »

Hi marqs. First-time poster, long-term lurker. Quick question:

Is digital audio output definitely not on the agenda for OSSC? It feels like such a deal-breaker! I'm planning on using this with a Mega Drive and it's such a shame the SCART audio input won't just be passed through HDMI. Obviously people can try to handle audio totally separately but it does seem to make things unnecessarily complicated...

Badly want to buy one of your first units - this is the only misgiving that I have!
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by BuckoA51 »

Badly want to buy one of your first units - this is the only misgiving that I have!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B009YZN1XU

Problem solved.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by werk91 »

daydreamnation wrote:...it's such a shame the SCART audio input won't just be passed through HDMI...
The next iterations of the OSSC will only have DVI-D in any case.
EDIT: BuckoA51 already posted the same link :oops:
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by BuckoA51 »

Unless of course you have a spare $5k lying around you'd care to donate for HDMI licensing fees :mrgreen:
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

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BuckoA51 wrote:Unless of course you have a spare $5k lying around you'd care to donate for HDMI licensing fees :mrgreen:
Supposedly if you buy the HDMI chipset and connector that license has already been paid, this should probably be investigated a bit closer.

Even though we have an HDMI output we still need to merge audio into the HDMI stream which requires some extra HW if I am not mistaken.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by ZellSF »

Is firmware going to be end user upgradable? How complicated is the process?
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by BuckoA51 »

Supposedly if you buy the HDMI chipset and connector that license has already been paid, this should probably be investigated a bit closer.
Not the case according to http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/terms.aspx

"The HDMI royalty is only payable on Licensed Products that will be sold on a stand-alone basis (i.e. that are not incorporated into another Licensed Product that is subject to an HDMI royalty). For example, if a cable or IC is sold to an Adopter who then includes it in a television subject to a royalty, then the cable or IC maker would not pay a royalty, and the television manufacturer would pay the royalty on the final product. If the cable is sold directly to consumers, then the cable would be subject to a royalty."

http://www.semiconductorstore.com/blog/ ... s-HDMI/654 also agrees with this assessment. I can't find anything to the contrary.

HDMI, such greed, many fees, wow :(
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by marqs »

Xyga wrote:60Hz strobing is really hard to stare at. I know I can't for more than about 10 minutes. ><
Not for those who've watched CRT TVs majority of their lives, although small screen sizes helped a lot in that.
Xyga wrote:EDIT: the redundant Q: any ETA on the assembled OSSCs ? :mrgreen:
Depends on your position in the reservation list - we'll inform people through the mailing lists once there are more accurate delivery estimates.
NormalFish wrote:Has there been any narrowing of the price window? I'm anxious to get one but I'm somewhat apprehensive about the price. I realize there isn't a specific number locked down but are we talking 80EUR or 150EUR or what?
I assume you're talking about pre-assembled board? The final price should not be that far from the initial estimate of 159EUR, but testing, billing etc. overhead costs are hard to estimate beforehand so I'm not giving an exact number yet.
kiun wrote:not sure if this question has been addressed, but are there plans to support JP-21 input, as opposed to Euro Scart ?
Let's wait and see if gamers in Japan get interested in this and start ordering boards - in that case it'd be probably worth making a localized PCB and case :mrgreen:
ZellSF wrote:Is firmware going to be end user upgradable? How complicated is the process?
Yes, it can be upgraded either via microSD card or via JTAG (requires a programmer device). Upgrade via microSD is not complicated as long as you can write a disk image on the card.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Xyga »

marqs wrote:
Xyga wrote:60Hz strobing is really hard to stare at. I know I can't for more than about 10 minutes. ><
Not for those who've watched CRT TVs majority of their lives, although small screen sizes helped a lot in that.
Frankly I've had all kinds of crt's since the 80's (still do) and never one that flickered as visibly and headache-inducingly as any occurence of 60Hz strobing I've seen.
marqs wrote:Depends on your position in the reservation list - we'll inform people through the mailing lists once there are more accurate delivery estimates.
Dunno I though I was among the first but maybe I was too slow.
Anyway thanks for your replies.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by NormalFish »

marqs wrote:
NormalFish wrote:Has there been any narrowing of the price window? I'm anxious to get one but I'm somewhat apprehensive about the price. I realize there isn't a specific number locked down but are we talking 80EUR or 150EUR or what?
I assume you're talking about pre-assembled board? The final price should not be that far from the initial estimate of 159EUR, but testing, billing etc. overhead costs are hard to estimate beforehand so I'm not giving an exact number yet.
Yes, sorry I should have specified. That's not so bad. Hopefully some of the production kinks can be worked out in future revisions and we see the price come down.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by BuckoA51 »

not sure if this question has been addressed, but are there plans to support JP-21 input, as opposed to Euro Scart ?
Let's wait and see if gamers in Japan get interested in this and start ordering boards - in that case it'd be probably worth making a localized PCB and case :mrgreen:
I can't say I'm enthusiastic about this idea, having to stock two versions of the unit with such a tiny difference is just a headache. How hard is it for people to just use an adapter? We always managed with the XRGBs here in Europe, now Japanese gamers can surely manage the reverse with this :D
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Thomago »

Just subscribed to videogameperfection's OSSC Mailing List (yay).

Any word on when it will actually be possible to order an OSSC via this distribution channel?
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by rtw »

BuckoA51 wrote:I can't say I'm enthusiastic about this idea, having to stock two versions of the unit with such a tiny difference is just a headache. How hard is it for people to just use an adapter? We always managed with the XRGBs here in Europe, now Japanese gamers can surely manage the reverse with this :D
Think of the debugging challenges, you have two PCBs with the same black connector but one is JP-21 and the other SCART... a nightmare.

Just stick with SCART, anyone who wants something different can make an adapter or maybe we can create a small PCB you plug into the OSSC which will change to JP-21, now there is a business opportunity :wink:
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by BuckoA51 »

Anyone who was hoping to use that Lindy S-Video to component/RGB transcoder with the OSSC, well, I've had two from Amazon now and neither work with the C64. Instead of a stable picture, the image just constantly rolls up the screen. I've tried two different TVs plus the DVDO Edge and XRGB Mini, same on all. Obviously I tried the C64 direct to the TV/Scalers too and it's perfectly stable.

Seems we really do need a good, readily available S-Video to RGB transcoder if anyone wants to take up the challenge.
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