Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[evil_ash_xero]

I beat Dead Fox (on Easy ) a while back. That last boss is so cheap. It took me a while, to realize I just needed to shoot, while I was coming down from a jump, to get in three shots. Made the difference.

Really good game. Should be brought up more.

And not like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAh962sc90A

[Squire Grooktook]

Thunder Force V's "It was dead, but alive at the same time" comes to mind with this game. Radiates paradoxic sepulchral vibrance.

Indeed. I believe "morbid but vibrant" or "desolate but vibrant" was one of the phrases I used to describe it to a friend a while ago.

Tangentially I've long fancied a hardcore action game that goes ULTRA BEASTO - totally inhuman, amoral, balls-out monster warring! I suppose the esteemed CHIMERA BEAST is the closest I've seen, but it involves Earth and loses that sheer xeno-factor.

I feel ya. Though not an action game, I actually had a turn based strategy rpg/wargame planned based on a kind of h.r giger world, where all your units (and the player character) were weird monsters with abilties as bizarre as their motives.

The aesthetic was dropped when the concept kind of morphed into a SMT/Berserk/Dark Souls inspired demon-summoning medieval strategy game due to figuring out some gameplay mechanics that seemed more suited to that kind of world and setting. Alongside my stg, I secretly toil away on it in the depths of the night. Would still love to see that though.

[cicada88]

Playing through Rockman 1-6 then going back and beating them a 2nd time to really compare them all. So far I've taken down 1 and 2 and enjoyed both. I feel like 2 was harder for me, but it was pretty close.

[copy-paster]

I feel like 2 was harder for me, but it was pretty close.

2 by far is the easiest of the 1-6 even in japanese version, 1 is hardest because the wily stages can make you give up quickly.

[cicada88]

I feel like 2 was harder for me, but it was pretty close.

2 by far is the easiest of the 1-6 even in japanese version, 1 is hardest because the wily stages can make you give up quickly.

Yeah, It's weird though I think 2 took me more time overall. I know a ton of people think the Yellow Devil from Rockman 1 is super hard, but for some reason I figured out how to beat him really quickly and it only took a handful of attempts.

Learning how to beat Fireman from Rockman without just trading shots was pretty tricky though. I did watch a youtube video on that, whereas I didn't have to do anything like that on the 2nd game.

It could just be mistaken perception though, which is why I am going to run through all 6 games a second time at the end.

[Squire Grooktook]

I think the "rockman 2 is easy" sentiment is primarily based on how many times everyone has played it in childhood lol.

I find most of the games roughly equivalent in difficulty (3 is probably hardest due to the fairly brutal reincarnation stages). I could see different skillsets making a difference in which one takes longer to clear or not.

[mamboFoxtrot]

I really do love the demon world aesthetic in the GnG and Arremer games. Though, I wish that the adventuring side of Demon's Crest had a little more to it. I mean, other than the shopkeepers, the one guy lounging around in the game's one and only town is pretty much it for friendly NPCs. Granted, 98% of the NPCs in Gargoyle's Quest II didn't say anything interesting (and 3/4 of the houses are empty for some reason), but... I guess it's the thought that counts here.

my FF fanfic. (^ ω ^)

who is ur otp???

[cicada88]

Granted, 98% of the NPCs in Gargoyle's Quest II didn't say anything interesting (and 3/4 of the houses are empty for some reason), but... I guess it's the thought that counts here.

Yeah, I wish this side had more to it on the FC/NES games too. The presentation on II was really slick for NES and it seems like it used the Sweet Home engine or vice versa judging by graphic style.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Far from sidescrolling action, but computer fantasy strategy games typically let you play as different sides of conflict, some of them distincly inhuman (StarCraft being quite a poster child for the cause).

[BIL]

who is ur otp???

Poison + Edi E

[GSK]

I may have already mentioned this but the makers of Oniken recently released a new game called Odallus that's clearly inspired by the Arremer games (there's even an Arremer-inspired alt costume for the main character).

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Maybe not the most pertinent question to the thread, but it relates directly to my being able to play Taromaru and I figure someone here might be able to help. I got SSF running on my PC after a little bit of effort, but Taromaru seems to run at half speed. I'm completely clueless when it comes to Saturn emulation - so does anyone know if this is some kind of issue with the game or emulator or my machine? Game feels really awesome and I'd love to dig into it.

Ninja Spirit is really something. The latter half of stage 4 is indeed hellish; it took me a ton of practice just to learn that. (The samurai have to be some of the most fiendish enemies in any sidescroller; I really can't think of any others that are that vicious. I almost feel like luck plays a big part in 4-2 (and 4-1 to a lesser extent); bad samurai spawns can create what feel like guaranteed deaths.) Stage 5 is oddly gentle after that (although it sucks to jump and have a gas trap appear right on top of you....) but stage 6 brings back the pain. Madness, but it's cool. I know about the unfortunate ninja pit, so I'm not sure if I want to dedicate myself to 1CCing this game, but it is pretty great. Really in love with the soundtrack, too.

[cicada88]

I may have already mentioned this but the makers of Oniken recently released a new game called Odallus that's clearly inspired by the Arremer games (there's even an Arremer-inspired alt costume for the main character).

That looks pretty sweet

[Ghegs]

I played through Odallus soon after it came out, and it's enjoyable all the way through indeed. It's not open-world like Metroid or Castlevania 2 as it still has stages, but you can and will still go re-explore earlier stages as you gain new abilities. The devs just recently put out a patch that gives the game a new difficulty mode, I've been meaning to give that a go.

[Jet Black]

Played Ninja Gaiden for a short time today, made it to the 3rd boss, have to find a good strategy for him. The last jump in 3-2 seems to be the first really hard jump in the game.

Small but critical tip for Basaquer/Berserker/"Boss Queer" (as I am forever condemned to call him since this dreadfully amusing 1337 TIPZ video ).

Spoiler

Whenever he shoots at you, just counter his barrage with a standing swipe. You'll take out the middle projectile, and can then safely hop through the gap. Otherwise stay in the center to avoid getting squashed, and just land hits where you can.

He's visibly a lot more threatening than the famously useless Barbarian and Bomberhead, but nearly as harmless with this bit of info.

Windmill star makes even shorter work of him, but the fastest method is to nail him with the updraft firewheel as he lands. One of the few bosses that can't be instakilled via Jumpslash (it's nowhere to be found in Act III).

For the preceding jump, use the screen position to your advantage. Take out the ambushing cat, let the edge guarder retreat a bit, then make the jump - you'll be able to swat the spawning eagle en route. Controlling the screen like this is a key NG1 skill, allowing you to counteract the rabidly aggressive enemy respawning. Several chokepoints can become agony if you're not actively managing your position. Beware of retreating unnecessarily and respawning stuff you've already killed, and never halt at a spawning point - replacements will just keep pouring in. Sometimes it's best to let something live until you're able to advance past its spawn point, then go for the kill (or outrun it).

A classic newbie-infuriating mistake is to panickingly run back and forth, unleashing respawn wrath from the very bowels of damnation. ;3 This is a love/hate idiosyncrasy that gradually receded over the subsequent games; NGII's not quite as strict, and you have to really try for NGIII respawns. But hey, at least you can control when stuff appears unlike a certain Ninja Spirit and its withering zako hellstorms. ^_~

Got distracted with other games, I finally found a good tactic for the third boss, thank you for the information! Made it to Stage 5-1 finally. Still a lot of work to do, if I ever want to beat this game.

How does this swordslash glitch work, that speedrunner seem to use to kill bosses quickly?

[MintyTheCat]

Playing through Rockman 1-6 then going back and beating them a 2nd time to really compare them all. So far I've taken down 1 and 2 and enjoyed both. I feel like 2 was harder for me, but it was pretty close.

There is the air section in MM1 that is a bastard. I found that a lot harder than MM2 as I remember.

Great games, I have not played them all but they are mega fun.

[Jet Black]

I found MM2 easier as MM1 and MM3, the Metal Blade is really broken and makes quick work of most enemies and even some bosses. Only thing that gave me really trouble was the turret boss.

[BIL]

Maybe not the most pertinent question to the thread, but it relates directly to my being able to play Taromaru and I figure someone here might be able to help. I got SSF running on my PC after a little bit of effort, but Taromaru seems to run at half speed. I'm completely clueless when it comes to Saturn emulation - so does anyone know if this is some kind of issue with the game or emulator or my machine? Game feels really awesome and I'd love to dig into it.

Wish I could help with this... my PC is truly ancient (~2006), and never ran Taro in SSF at fullspeed without disabling at least one BG layer. SSF_011_alpha_R5 is the version I was recommended for Taro and Leynos 2 back then (2011 or so).

Taro should run smooth as silk - the opening minibosses' bullet rain used to catch me off-guard when I finally played it on console, it comes down fast! Of course you've got a handy-dandy bullet-eating shield, and can blow the fuckers away in one pass with good timing besides! "IYAAAAAA!" <-- I love how all the demons' voices sound like either Ryuji Yamazaki or Satan himself.

Ninja Spirit 4-2 basement is fiendish as hell. Love the proto-Metal Storm feel, with the double-edged gravity switch. I need to refer back to BGR and Ex_Mosquito's no-misses... in both AC and PCE, sometimes chain seems ideal for stopping ceiling samurai (but then ceiling ninjas stab me). Sometimes grenades, but if a samurai survives the blast you're probably SOL. The smartbomb found in the final stretch seems important with the screen-clearing effect carrying forward some distance. Best-case scenario is a bit of fortunate spawn timing, of course.

Ninja Pit demands the Naked Gun facepalm gif. Truly snatching defeat from the jaws of victory with that one. Ah, well.

How does this swordslash glitch work, that speedrunner seem to use to kill bosses quickly?

The jumping sword cancel glitch is done by hitting and [down] in a specific rhythm - basically, it lets you connect way more slashes than ordinarily possible. It's kind of a poor man's Jumpslash, and is necessary for speedkills on the few bosses where Jumpslash isn't available.

The Jumpslash speedkill itself couldn't be simpler - just get close and hit . The attack deals damage at a blistering rate, and will devour boss lifebars almost instantaneously. Like pointblanking in an STG, pretty much. The tricky part is getting to the boss without accidentally swapping to another weapon - this requires some memorisation of item placements. Also, with Jumpslash equipped you can't use the normal sword while leaping forward (since you have to be holding [down]), so adjustment is needed to avoid running out of ammo. Of course you only need one shot for the boss speedkill, so this is fairly easy to work around.

These days I like trying to nail all the boss speedkills... I actually find it a lot easier to just wing it like in the OP replay, though. ;3 The only part of the game I absolutely ensure I've got JS for is 6-2's infamous third floor chokepoint - it's simply not worth doing without it.

[cicada88]

I found MM2 easier as MM1 and MM3, the Metal Blade is really broken and makes quick work of most enemies and even some bosses. Only thing that gave me really trouble was the turret boss.

This could be part of why I didn't find it as easy as people say. In general I don't really use any of the special weapons at all during the regular stages. I only really use the special weapons starting from the castle boss parts.

I also don't mine anything like energy tanks. The only time I use an E Tank is if I found it in the current level.

[trap15]

Also, with Jumpslash equipped you can't use the normal sword while leaping forward (since you have to be holding [down])

Nope! If you hold down while attacking in the air, you don't use the jumpslash. Thusly, you can still attack while jumping forward if you hold forward+down. Super useful for saving up tons of ammo.

[BIL]

Are you sure? I want to believe... In my experience though, the game demands specific [up] and [down] inputs for subweapons and JS cancels, respectively. Diagonals won't work, so no jumping forward while launching the windmill star, or suppressing JS. Of course you can jump forward, stop to hit [down + attack] then resume advancing, but it's a definite compromise.

This always stood out to me as the one area where FC Ryukenden handles more strictly than its blueprint FC Dracula (you can jump all over the place launching subweapons in that one). I suspect it might've been done to give Jumpslash more priority, since it's the only subweapon you can wield while advancing.

I wonder if it's some obscure version thing.

[trap15]

Hm, I could've sworn it worked like that in Ryukenden, but maybe I built up the muscle memory to switch to just down mid-flight. Now you've got me questioning myself

[Squire Grooktook]

Re: Odallus

I played through it in a single sitting when it came out. I think it's a lot like Oniken in that it's solid but completely unremarkable and doesn't have any real flavor to it. A lot of the games mentioned here have very unique play styles and quirks, but both Oniken and Odallus are just "solid" without anything that really makes them feel special (beyond the art, which is good).

My biggest problem with Odallus is the sword swing, in terms of design. It honestly makes no sense to me. On one hand, the swing is laggy as heck, and locks you in place for a while. But on the other hand, you can jump cancel it at will. So you neither get that heavy commitment of Classic Castlevania, nor the speedy on the fly sword swinging of something like Hagane, Strider, or Ninja Gaiden. Maybe if the sword had a long wind up and the damaging hitbox came at the end of the swing, it would make sense. Giving you an emergency escape route, but forcing you to find longer windows to actually do damage...except the hitbox is actually at the very start of the animation, followed by a lengthy and pointless cooldown which you will then proceed to jump cancel every single time.

I just have no clue what they were going for with that, but it feels very awkward to me. Not "deal breakingly awkward" but just one of the things that makes me think the game is average at best. The only other control issue that bugs me in a similar manner is the (later acquired) Mega Man X dash that requires double tapping instead of having its own button. You'll understand very shortly why every X and Zero game had a dedicated button for dashing :\

The rest of the game was passable to me. Good but not great. Bosses were cool looking but had simple patterns that didn't really stand out. Level design was ok. Much like Oniken, everything just ok (except the art, which is pretty great despite being played out pseudo 8-bit). I give it about a 6/10 or a 7/10. Fun one time romp, wouldn't really return to it.

[mamboFoxtrot]

The only other control issue that bugs me in a similar manner is the (later acquired) Mega Man X dash that requires double tapping instead of having its own button. You'll understand very shortly why every X and Zero game had a dedicated button for dashing :\

Fun fact: before I realized I could reconfigure the controls to the SNES games in the X Collection, I used double-tapping exclusively for dashing as I simply could not figure out how to press it while jumping and charging at the same time. Would not recommend. Double-tapping into a wall before jumping off of it for a dash jump is really damn awkward.
Also, I will fully admit to creaming my pants just a little when I noticed that Mega Man Zero (or at least the fourth?) lets you turn the command dash off completely. The number of times I've taken damage or outright died to accidental dashes just trying to adjust my position...

[soprano1]

This could go on the SNES/SFC thread, but it's an action sidescroller game so i guess it's ok:
Kishin Douji Zenki: Rettou Raiden has a translation patch now, for those interested in it: http://www.romhacking.net/translations/2570/

[BIL]

Battle Raiden's most definitely on topic, good post! I'm always glad to see it get a little more recognition. Cool game, kinda Hagane meets Mutant Apocalypse. As to be expected from Hagane's devs, the moveset and inputs are super satisfying. In particular, I think its letting you transition freely between moving and charging by holding [attack] is a minor bit of interface genius. Feels very smooth having the Raijinken revving up the instant you let off the d-pad.

[dojo_b]

These days I like trying to nail all the boss speedkills... I actually find it a lot easier to just wing it like in the OP replay, though. ;3 The only part of the game I absolutely ensure I've got JS for is 6-2's infamous third floor chokepoint - it's simply not worth doing without it.

I can't quite tell, but I think you're referring to the part after the long ladder-climb. I learned to beat that reliably without jump-slash. It's a very sequential process, just handle one enemy after the other, and the only one that takes nerves of steel is the second eagle, but that's a matter of learned timing. It looks like there is a demo video made specifically about beating this segment sans JS.

The part I refuse to do without jump-slash is the part of 6-2 with flying ninjas, especially the critical issue of landing that last jump in the presence of shuriken fire. Incidentally, I tend to use the term 'range' for the basic sub-level units of NG and CV-style games (a region thru which side-scrolling occurs) and talk about 6-2 range 1 etc.

I've been away from NG1 for some time, but am back with an aim to achieve reliable 1CC form (which I had for a brief period after playing like a madman). I think my fundamentals are better after the rest, just need to firm up a few tough parts. Some notes from my last play-thrus:

-Using a controller with a slightly stiff D-pad in my emulation days really affected my ability to wall-maneuver well (the rapid reversals needed to manage one's vertical position), and the NES controller I'm using now is a breath of fresh air. I was hoping this would make the nastiest part of 5-2 (where you have to position yourself low on a wall, above a pit, to jump below an overhang) more innocuous, but nope, it's still delicate and unforgiving business.

-While working on this, I studied Ryu's jump a bit more thoroughly. It seems that in any jump, Ryu has a primary direction (that in which he launched) and can move quickly in that direction by the D-pad. He can also move the opposite direction, but much more slowly, which is why the 5-2 thing above is tricky. What I didn't know until now is that during a jump, even after moving slowly in the dis-preferred direction, you can still resume *fast* motion in the preferred one.

-Another tidbit: I noticed that the windmill shuriken can persist on-screen, even when passing between stages (reliably? and between ranges? TBD). Probably not important, but could lead to some good style-kills.

-I am definitely agreeing more and more with BIL's preference for the way NG centers the protagonist whenever possible. For me the main virtue is that it lets you spend less time visually tracking Ryu (except in the trickiest platform-jumping parts), and spend more time scanning for dangers ahead. I think this small advantage is important for skilled play, much as a musician learns to glance a few bars ahead while playing from sheet music. And actually, this brings up my #1 tip for fighting the final boss Demon, even though there is no center-tracking---Ryu's floor area is fixed and simple (except for the demon tail) and there is little value in looking at him. Instead it's crucial to watch the Demon's head-region where the fireballs are spewed and prepare for quick defensive movement.

[BIL]

I can't quite tell, but I think you're referring to the part after the long ladder-climb. I learned to beat that reliably without jump-slash. It's a very sequential process, just handle one enemy after the other, and the only one that takes nerves of steel is the second eagle, but that's a matter of learned timing. It looks like there is a demo video made specifically about beating this segment sans JS.

Yes, that part exactly. It's entirely doable sans JS, or indeed sans any subweapon at all... but the technique and potential blood pressure increase must be reckoned with.

-While working on this, I studied Ryu's jump a bit more thoroughly. It seems that in any jump, Ryu has a primary direction (that in which he launched) and can move quickly in that direction by the D-pad. He can also move the opposite direction, but much more slowly, which is why the 5-2 thing above is tricky.

Yes - the deceptively strict air handling is one of my favourite tweaks to the Castlevania base. Note also that while Ryu can adjust his position in mid-air, he's totally unable to turn around; once you leave the ground, your back is wide open. What feels like unlimited flexibility over Dracula is, in reality, just as immovably regulated. So you panic-jumped? And now you really need to swat that eagle before it crashes into your back for the kill? Uh oh, can't do champ! You'd better haul ass forward and pray you hit the ground in time! Wonderfully, subtly punishing.

-Another tidbit: I noticed that the windmill shuriken can persist on-screen, even when passing between stages (reliably? and between ranges? TBD). Probably not important, but could lead to some good style-kills.

Haha, it does do that! Usually happens to me between 5-1 and 5-2. Blow away the heavy guarding 5-1's exit, oh hey the windmill star followed me out! No idea how it could be harnessed, outside of crazy-ass TASing.

The windmill star's tracking behaviour is a thing of beauty, isn't it? If you want to be appalled, give the PCE port's a throw. Ughhh, it's awful. 3:

[Imhotep]

I agree regarding Oniken, it's an astonishingly competent hommage, but fails as a game because it doesn't reach for something that could be its own. 6/10


similar things can be said about Captain Saver/Power Blade 2 which in certain ways also feels like the developers were consciously reminiscing 8bit sidescrolling gravitiy action games (sorry ), but this time indulges in gimmicks without establishing a solid core gameplay level design. 6.5/10


Ganryu might also fall in this category, though I've read somewhere that it was developed well before it was released. The gameplay works really well here though. 7/10

[BIL]

I wasn't too motivated by Captain Saver either. Handling seemed quality for sure, but the decidedly Rockman-esque stage design and action it shares with Power Blazer wasn't moving me. Though, I like both games more than the actual FC Rockmen barring the first! Might go back and re-evaluate sometime.