Ninja Gaiden Sigma

[mannerbot]

So I assume that you would recommend this game for sure to anyone who hasn't played Ninja Gaiden (Black) yet. What about someone that has? Is there enough fresh material to justify what would be a third purchase of the same game for some people?

[Strider77]

So I assume that you would recommend this game for sure to anyone who hasn't played Ninja Gaiden (Black) yet. What about someone that has? Is there enough fresh material to justify what would be a third purchase of the same game for some people?

If you own a PS3 and have not played it before then yes it's a no brainer. It's a deffinate purchase, besides what the hell else are you gonna buy anytime soon. It was an awsome game before and now it's visuals are even better.

As for folks who are returning to it... well I played through black 1st and wanted this one. The visual overhaul was enough for me. But there is the new weapon and playable character. There have been a few added bits/differences/moves ect. It's the deffinative version to own. It's really a judgement call for the person. If you love the game and need a excuse to play it again or are the type of person who wants to keep their games to replay ect, then I say go for it and replace black with this. Just know it is an update and not a radically different game.

Some I'm sure will bitch about yet another update... and well I think it's about time for part 2 myself. Still it doesn't change that the game looks much better and offers new content with new challenges.

I am on chapter 13 now so I can't comment on the amount of new content yet till the end or at least close to it.

[mannerbot]

Word, I'll put it on my to-buy list for probably 2009, whenever I get a PS3. Hopefully it's like $20 by then.

[Obiwanshinobi]

A question.
On the blimp, right next to the cabin where you start the chapter, there's a chamber accessible when you backtrack with ID card. Lowly human enemies keep spawning there, first in number of two at once, then three (at which point I've been losing so far). Excellent opportunity to hone my combat skills, but is it even possible to clear the room, or their ranks can't be depleted?

Possibly due to all the TPP slashing done on PS2, coming from the GameCube Spartan: Total Warrior, I ascertain that I prefer playing such games (maybe even console TPP action-adventures in general) with PlayStation-style controllers.

[Strider77]

If I remember right it's a fiend challenge and ends after killing 60 or more depending of you difficulty setting.

This game is the pinnacle of third person action melee games to me. I should replay it soon.

Fuck... I started this thread, 9 years ago. My birthday today combined with a 9 year old thread resurrection that I didn't realize I started till flipping back.....

[Obiwanshinobi]

...but mayn, if the same people who slag off Metroid: Other M on the basis of its opening FMV alone think much of 3D NG settings and storytelling (or just the FMVs), that can teach you a lot about mankind.

[Squire Grooktook]

They probably don't care about NG's storyline, Metroid is just an iconic franchise that's always been well presented, so it stings a bit more.

I got side tracked away from Other M with an indifferent feeling pretty fast after a bit too much frustration with the various Where's Waldo pointing minigames. Watching some friends play it on stream later made it seem awfully repetitive and meandering and stifled any interest I had in returning to it.

[Obiwanshinobi]

This game is the pinnacle of third person action melee games to me.

Not sure I feel the same way, but the combat does come as extraordinarily refined. Makes the most fun other action games look like a fluke.
We all must've heard the story how certain glitch in Onimusha effectively spawned DMC (thus, effectively, this whole sub-genre), right? Nothing wrong with lucky accidents like that, but you can tell that for this game's combat designer, being merely fun coud have never been enough.

[Strider77]

What else is there that trumps it?

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

I think God Hand and Bayonetta are on the same tier. I definitely don't think any of those three games outstrip the others, or that there are any other games in the genre / subgenre that stack up (except maybe for Ninja Gaiden II, but I need to play more of that to be sure).

[Obiwanshinobi]

I'm trying not to think about games in terms of competition. Not having played DMC for years, I remember it as a mighty different beast at heart (the blocking alone makes one hell of a difference). Then we all know NG's excellent combat would be all the better if the camera did not suck (say, 3D YS or God of War camera would hardly hurt it); if anything, GoW proved that cinematic ambitions don't demand painstaking camera management from the player (and I have a hard time thinking of the PC Oath in Felghana as second to any TPP melee action game)...

[iconoclast]

What else is there that trumps it?

I'd put Ninja Gaiden II a mile ahead of anything else (the 360 version, not the pile of shit that is Sigma 2). (´-ω-｀)

The other top games in the genre are great in their own way, but I think the core combat system and enemy design in both Ninja Gaidens makes them better than any of their peers. A lot of games (especially Platinum's) let you cancel most of your attacks with a dodge at any time, but all that really does is reduce depth/strategy in favor of accessibility. You don't have to consider things like the recovery of each move, or weigh the risk/reward of a combo that leaves you open for a moment when you can be safe at any time with the press of a button. Ninja Gaiden uses a guard button instead, which enemies will counter with throws, and makes you consider things like chip damage, unblockable attacks, and guard-crush that staggers you for a moment, all of which are more interesting to me than a dodge button. Ninja Gaiden is also better than most other games in terms of enemy design. Combat is a lot more interesting in the long run when the enemies are meant to be threatening, rather than punching bags.

It's a real shame that almost everybody responsible for making Ninja Gaiden great was gone by the end of 2008.

[Squire Grooktook]

A lot of games (especially Platinum's) let you cancel most of your attacks with a dodge at any time, but all that really does is reduce depth/strategy in favor of accessibility.

Disagree. This is a classic design choice, that has a variety of trade offs, that has existed in many forms across different genres. You can find the same kind of differing design choices on "commitment" in action platformers, when you compare games like Classic Castlevania, Ghouls and Ghosts, Contra, etc. which all have unique choices on whether you should be able to aim or change direction mid jump, cancel attacks, attack on the fly, etc. etc.

Being able to cancel attacks at will makes a games dodging more versatile, I feel. Enemies can have faster, more unpredictable, and more complex attacks, because their attack telegraphing no longer has to be limited to human reaction time + player attack time (in case the player end up attacking say...when an opponent is 5 frames into their own attack animation, which would be impossible to sight confirm in time and which will lead to the player taking inevitable damage if the enemy attack was sufficiently fast enough).*

It's also not quite accurate to say that attack canceling negates a need for knowledge of attack timing, recovery, start up, etc. Because you'll still need to play around those limitations. For example, a longer start up time on player hitboxes would require players to search for a longer vulnerable window on enemies, even if they have an escape option from a badly timed attack. If the player has to get especially close to dangerous foe to find that window, then that's one way the strategy can be deepend. Similarly, managing recovery time can be advantageous to offense/defense if the recovery time on moves is smaller then that of an empty dodge.

Of course it's still absolutely true that non-cancelable attacks bring a unique set of challenges, footsies games, etc. but it also has limitations of its own (ie enemy attacks have to be either slower or more predictable, among other things) It's a 50/50 trade off which can lead to a variety of deep strategies and fun set ups on either side. I like a lot of types of games and thoroughly enjoy both styles. I think I lean more towards the exhilarating sense of freedom and ability to escape any bad situation with sufficient skill, that any-time cancels bring. But like I said, it's aaaallll good.


*

Spoiler

To ramble on about this in a little more detail, the limit of human reaction time is about 10 frames (and that's the absolute limit, as in the hardest possible reaction you can make. 15 is considered a top level reaction for most people). Let's say the players attack lasts 5 frames before they can move/block/dodge again (that's HELLA fast, like the speediest of light jabs). In that case, every single enemy attack has to have at LEAST > 15 frames of start up. Because the player needs to sight confirm that the enemy is not in their own attack (which takes at least 10 frames, due to human reaction time) before they can throw out their own 5 frame vulnerable attack (unless it's like many older beat em ups where the player simply out-ranges every enemy and needs to focus on NOT fighting up close when the enemy is capable of performing actions).

Realistically, everything is going to be even slower because most modern hack and slash have way more then 5 frames for slashes, most attacks aren't and can't be at the absolute limit of human reaction time all the time, etc. So maybe a 30 frame attack for the player, which would require most enemy attacks to have like 15-30 frames of start up (an okay/average reaction) + player start up time (30)...that's pretty slow. Actually dodging/blocking isn't going to be too hard if you're focusing on it...or at least not as fast or complex as it could be otherwise. That's not actually bad, mind you. It creates more of a dichotomy between offense/defense, where escaping damage is always easier if you're focusing purely on it. It's a trade off, as I said.

Now with the ability to dodge at any time, any attack only needs to be > 10 frames of start up. The designer can do whatever they want in terms of enemy patterns, complexity, etc. beyond that.

[iconoclast]

Well, I suppose part of the problem is that no other game has enemies that are as fast, aggressive, and unpredictable as Ninja Gaiden. If you constantly had to dodge a barrage of attacks, so much so that you could rarely complete a combo, then being able to dodge at any time would pretty much be a necessity - in theory. But I don't think any publisher would fund a game that demands that much from the player (and I don't think any developer would make something like that). Especially nowadays.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah, sadly.

Platinum doesn't just hide the higher difficulties from the start to increase playtime: according to a game developer I talked to once, in focus groups people always pick the hardest difficulty and then complain that it's too hard, instead of picking normal. So you have to hide harder difficulty settings so that people won't blame the game for their own deliberate choices.

I hate modern gamers.

Oh well, maybe the Doujin Developers will get to character action games one day...

[qmish]

I'd put Ninja Gaiden II a mile ahead of anything else (the 360 version, not the pile of shit that is Sigma 2). (´-ω-｀)

You are my hero! NG2 is closest to "non-stoppable action" ideal in it's genre.

That, and your avatar is awesome.

Oh well, maybe the Doujin Developers will get to character action games one day...

Hope their new attempts would be much better than Mitsurugi Kamui Hikae...

[Obiwanshinobi]

Back to that optional challenge chamber on airship, the enemies there are anything but unpredictable. It's true that their throat-slitting & butt-kicking combo keeps coming as a little surprise to me, but they only ever seem to perform it at very close range (which is essentially true about all of their contact attacks), whereas Ryu is more of a long-range attacker*, so there is no good reason to let them this near him.
Speaking of the original II, aren't most enemies less aggressive there?

I believe there's more to TPP combat than complexity and can think of a number of one-trick-pony TPP slashers that simply don't need NG's expansive moveset to get pretty technical. Which quite stops me from recognising NG as the genre's crowning achievement yet (and even within its very specific sub-genre, enough said about ivincibility frames and such).

Last but not least, I suppose NG-complex fighting games are way more expensive to develop than some of the most gifted devs could survive. I don't know how much resources Platinum games recycle, but my guess would be - rather a lot (and the whole first 3D NG got recycled, like 3 times now?) - which is not the path I wish all of games development trod.

*) His jump, direction+strong attack move is so fun & safe to use there (and the fastest way of moving forward) that only the creaky camera stops me from abusing it even more.

P.S. Cleared that room at last (still on Way of the Ninja) and, having watched a lot of the same character models and their animations in the process, I might add their variety comes at a price - nothing moves particulary gracefully (see most PS2-gen Capcom games for comparison), which illustrates both why I still think CERTAIN other TPP combat games do SOME things better for my money and how demanding their development must be.

[qmish]

Any other similar games where every enemy encounter is "either you or them"?

[zinger]

Is NGII broken in the same way as NG1, namely that you can grind bats for as much essence you'll ever need, which eliminates pretty much any challenge from the game? I still love NG for everything it is, but it would be so much better without being able to stock up an infinite supply of potions.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Ys: Oath in Felghana is a pretty worthy candidate, actually - I have a hard time thinking of an action game of that sort with a consistently better lineup of bosses. I generally don't put Felghana in quite the same category as games like the Ninja Gaidens or Transformers or whatever (mostly due to the different camera perspective and wildly different take on stage design) but it's definitely a fair comparison. Felghana has some qualities (weaknesses) that I think drag it down below the absolute strongest action games, but I would still handily put it and Origin over, say, most of the Devil May Cry series or Metal Gear Rising.

Any other similar games where every enemy encounter is "either you or them"?

I don't think there is - at least not among 3D melee combat-focused games like these. God Hand comes sort of close but it's not quite the same. You might get the same feeling from belt-scrolling beat-em-ups - not the same genre but I think they scratch a similar itch.

Is NGII broken in the same way as NG1, namely that you can grind bats for as much essence you'll ever need, which eliminates pretty much any challenge from the game? I still love NG for everything it is, but it would be so much better without being able to stock up an infinite supply of potions.

Well, I'd have to question why you'd choose to adopt such a boring strategy. Yes, it's unfortunate that the game is exploitable in that way, but I think that if you choose to play in such an unnatural way, you really only have yourself to blame if you have an unpleasant experience. So I wouldn't call the game "broken" because of a flaw like that.

That said, being able to farm for healing items won't get you very far on the harder modes of these games (unless you obsessively grind to get talismans of rebirth for every encounter).

[Strider77]

I'd put Ninja Gaiden II a mile ahead of anything else (the 360 version, not the pile of shit that is Sigma 2). (´-ω-｀)

I was including that... although that was't clear. I've never encountered a combat engine that was just so razor sharp. Alot of folks complain about the camera but I never had any major issues. If you pull a trigger it sets directly behind you. It's not perfect but nothing that I really wrestled with.

I just feel totally in control at all times. And as I continued to play I felt the game really offered my a playground to grow as a player. I love other games in this area also, like Bayonetta and DMC3... but there is kind of a very loose reaction to the button presses. It's responsive and it's a totally legit and fun way to do things... but NG just has a razor sharp pin point-ness to it. Blocking, rolling, countering, throwing etc..... it has an awesome rhythm to it that I've never felt anywhere else. Then the game's AI makes you utilize it. Always on your toes.

I love it, part 2 comes after you with a fury. It's like it's constantly nipping at your heels. Story... I could care less but it does set up some awesome set pieces for the action.

There is just a glorious satisfaction in controlling that game.... then mastering it and owning it. It's very zen like for me. Even just that rhythmic roll, jump, roll, jump, roll.... I practically never walk in that game now. I can't help but just do that imput over and over.

It just has a "beat" that is fun to move to and a control that is so responsive. It's almost like that zen like control thing you can get in a really good and challenging arcade racer that runs at 60 frames when it gets very challenging. There is that point where the games physics engine just clicks and it's almost like you can start to feel the traction of the road and your tires even though there isn't any to feel in reality.

I feel completely in control and it's fun doing so..... that button press feels like a direct extension of his sword. As soon as I press anything it's happening on screen. Blocking is instant and there is a "snap to" when blocking out of attacks along with the roll out of that block. Then combine that with the fact he will always swing automatically towards the closet enemy (if you are not pushing a direction).

I love it.... I doubt I will ever see anything match the control that engine offers again. I hope I'm wrong.

Again for the record I love Platinum and some other similar games. But they let you be a little more spamy with their button presses, dodges etc. That's not really a knock but it's there and a difference. NG doesn't feel like that and doesn't really let you get away with that as much if at all.

[Strider77]

Any other similar games where every enemy encounter is "either you or them"?

Agreed... I love that myself.

[Axelay]

Since we are talking about ninja gaiden 2 . Which weapons do you folks favour ?
Ninja gaiden 2 had so many it was just a blast to try all of them out.
Vigoorian flails for life

You are right strider there really isn't a game like it.
Ninja gaiden 3 .... Sigh thinking about it makes me upset.
However I am excited for Ni oh......

[Obiwanshinobi]

I suspect one of the 3D NG's most distinctive features is its collision detection (and the not-so-nice-looking character animations could have something to do with that). I would elaborate, but not with my boots on, so if you excuse...

[qmish]

You are right strider there really isn't a game like it.
Ninja gaiden 3 .... Sigh thinking about it makes me upset.
However I am excited for Ni oh......

Razor Edge's missions could be a bit enjoyable, but not the main campaign i guess (?)

Ni-Oh, i don't know, they said in interview that it was close to NG, but then game was remade to be closer to Dark Souls.

p.s. sorry for question, but is there any other games where you use kusarigama besides NG and some musou games? Not just sickle, but blade on chain which you can spin around.

[Obiwanshinobi]

blade on chain which you can spin around

Sounds like Tecmo's own Rygar PS2 remake. I recall a spiked ball on chain weapon featuring in Onimusha 3.

[iconoclast]

I love every weapon in Ninja Gaiden II, but my favorites are the Dragon Sword, Falcon's Talons, and Blade of the Archfiend. The DS would be my #1 simply because it's the most well-rounded weapon in the game, with no major holes in its arsenal. The Talons have a really cool and flashy moveset, and the Blade of the Archfiend shreds enemies in such a satisfying way. Every weapon just feels so good to use, though. Even Enma's Fang in Sigma 2.

p.s. sorry for question, but is there any other games where you use kusarigama besides NG and some musou games? Not just sickle, but blade on chain which you can spin around.

Ninja Spirit (Arcade/PCE).

I suspect one of the 3D NG's most distinctive features is its collision detection (and the not-so-nice-looking character animations could have something to do with that). I would elaborate, but not with my boots on, so if you excuse...

Maybe it's just me, but I think both Ninja Gaidens have incredible animation. Everything moves extremely smoothly, the hits are impactful, and the choreography is fast and intricate. This looks close to perfect for the game imo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15qzaImhLbo

[Axelay]

You are right strider there really isn't a game like it.
Ninja gaiden 3 .... Sigh thinking about it makes me upset.
However I am excited for Ni oh......

Razor Edge's missions could be a bit enjoyable, but not the main campaign i guess (?)

Ni-Oh, i don't know, they said in interview that it was close to NG, but then game was remade to be closer to Dark Souls.

p.s. sorry for question, but is there any other games where you use kusarigama besides NG and some musou games? Not just sickle, but blade on chain which you can spin around.

I actually started to enjoy the missions, the customisation and the multiplayer.
So strange as the main campaign is usually the highlight.

I love both dark souls and ninja gaiden. So it should be quite interesting to see.

I love lunar and the tonfas

[Strider77]

Maybe it's just me, but I think both Ninja Gaidens have incredible animation. Everything moves extremely smoothly, the hits are impactful, and the choreography is fast and intricate. This looks close to perfect for the game imo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15qzaImhLbo

I agree. I thought the animations were a high light and very much enjoyable and above standard.

I actually enjoyed razor's edge... the control repaired mostly. I mean it's not my favorite but I enjoyed it. The level layouts are not as good as the others but when I played razor's edge I did let out a small sigh of relief over the controls. The mission stuff was fun to, I'm going to have to replay these soon.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Animation-wise, I must refer to Spartan: Total Warrior again - a game I found rather accomplished, technically, but its animations left me underwhelmed - or, to be precise, refer to some things S:TW devs told the press:

In terms of quality of contact between the sword and a body, the Onimusha series is particularly good.

and then

And while the physicality of impact was great, their animation set wasn't great.

Having read the above, first I was like "How come?", a huge Capcom animations fan that I am. When vector dudes in your game move nowhere near as nicely as the Onimusha (or God Hand etc.) characters and monsters, then you had better start making sense when defending YOUR game's animations.
Then he explains that - rather than looking nice, graceful and whatnot - what they are proud of is the sense of powerful impact hitting those dudes might give you. Which must get balanced with attacks range, the nuances of hit detection and so on.

Now, many Capcom characters (Dante, Joe, Gene) display that narcissistic awareness of the camera in their games (Joe's flexing is the most obvious example), whereas NG shows nothing of the sort to me and I suppose all of its combat animations serve the sense of impact rather than give any sense of personality (those may not be all mutually inclusive).
Gosh, I don't think there's a language ready to talk about the subject matter yet.

As for the camera, I don't find it so terrible (rather standard I'd say) as I find it not doing this game's kind of action a favour. Even DMC camera is typically more zoomed out when there is combat to do and GoW gets it darn near-perfectly.