iconoclast wrote:
A lot of games (especially Platinum's) let you cancel most of your attacks with a dodge at any time, but all that really does is reduce depth/strategy in favor of accessibility.
Disagree. This is a classic design choice, that has a variety of trade offs, that has existed in many forms across different genres. You can find the same kind of differing design choices on "commitment" in action platformers, when you compare games like Classic Castlevania, Ghouls and Ghosts, Contra, etc. which all have unique choices on whether you should be able to aim or change direction mid jump, cancel attacks, attack on the fly, etc. etc.
Being able to cancel attacks at will makes a games dodging more versatile, I feel. Enemies can have faster, more unpredictable, and more complex attacks, because their attack telegraphing no longer has to be limited to human reaction time
+ player attack time (in case the player end up attacking say...when an opponent is 5 frames into their own attack animation, which would be impossible to sight confirm in time and which will lead to the player taking inevitable damage if the enemy attack was sufficiently fast enough).*
It's also not quite accurate to say that attack canceling negates a need for knowledge of attack timing, recovery, start up, etc. Because you'll still need to play around those limitations. For example, a longer start up time on player hitboxes would require players to search for a longer vulnerable window on enemies, even if they have an escape option from a badly timed attack. If the player has to get especially close to dangerous foe to find that window, then that's one way the strategy can be deepend. Similarly, managing recovery time can be advantageous to offense/defense if the recovery time on moves is smaller then that of an empty dodge.
Of course it's still absolutely true that non-cancelable attacks bring a unique set of challenges, footsies games, etc. but it also has limitations of its own (ie enemy attacks have to be either slower or more predictable, among other things) It's a 50/50 trade off which can lead to a variety of deep strategies and fun set ups on either side. I like a lot of types of games and thoroughly enjoy both styles. I think I lean more towards the exhilarating sense of freedom and ability to escape any bad situation with sufficient skill, that any-time cancels bring. But like I said, it's aaaallll good.
*
To ramble on about this in a little more detail, the limit of human reaction time is about 10 frames (and that's the absolute limit, as in the hardest possible reaction you can make. 15 is considered a top level reaction for most people). Let's say the players attack lasts 5 frames before they can move/block/dodge again (that's HELLA fast, like the speediest of light jabs). In that case, every single enemy attack has to have at LEAST > 15 frames of start up. Because the player needs to sight confirm that the enemy is not in their own attack (which takes at least 10 frames, due to human reaction time) before they can throw out their own 5 frame vulnerable attack (unless it's like many older beat em ups where the player simply out-ranges every enemy and needs to focus on NOT fighting up close when the enemy is capable of performing actions).
Realistically, everything is going to be even slower because most modern hack and slash have way more then 5 frames for slashes, most attacks aren't and can't be at the absolute limit of human reaction time all the time, etc. So maybe a 30 frame attack for the player, which would require most enemy attacks to have like 15-30 frames of start up (an okay/average reaction) + player start up time (30)...that's pretty slow. Actually dodging/blocking isn't going to be too hard if you're focusing on it...or at least not as fast or complex as it could be otherwise. That's not actually bad, mind you. It creates more of a dichotomy between offense/defense, where escaping damage is always easier if you're focusing purely on it. It's a trade off, as I said.
Now with the ability to dodge at any time, any attack only needs to be > 10 frames of start up. The designer can do whatever they want in terms of enemy patterns, complexity, etc. beyond that.
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RegalSin wrote:
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