Shooters vs Run n Guns

[BIL]

Nah I prefer X68k for horror nasties, Bloodlines has cool enemy death gags but it doesn't suggest Dorakyura was flaying muhfuckas' faces off and making decorations of their skin or keeping unfortunate captives to feed his demon hordes!

Hey wait a sec everyone hated "XX Cum Label" back in the day too! Was it because Rondo didn't get localised for Americashire? >__>

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah, the only really bloody section of Bloodlines is the zombies and miniboss in stage 1. It's more of a visceral, actiony kind of art direction, but not nessicarily all that brutal.

x68k's torture dungeon is a real punch in the gut for sure.

"XX Cum Label"

"White label"/"Vanilla Version" will never be the same.

[Obscura]

Hey wait a sec everyone hated "XX Cum Label" back in the day too! Was it because Rondo didn't get localised for Americashire? >__>

Everyone always says this, but it doesn't mesh with my experience. Back in the day, everyone I knew liked it more than either of the other 16 bit Castlevanias they had access to. I didn't see the "Dracula X sucks" meme until the days where videogame fansites became common.

[BIL]

Eh I dunno, I remember lots of mainstream mags weeing on Milky Pie for lacking all of IV's wacky gimmicks like jumbo pixelblock Simon and his floppy whip. Next Generation slammed it for being "TWO YEARS OLD" as if a direct port of Rondo - as if! Good job they didn't know what they were really missing, hoo boy.

[Squire Grooktook]

I don't really dislike XX, I just don't like it as much as x68, rondo, bloodlines, cv1, cv3...etc. It's a solid game, I don't find any of the classicvania's bad, personally (2? Haven't played it in years though, sounds terrible though).

[MathU]

While I happen to agree that Dracula X is one of the better Castlevania games, it does have a few flaws that were a step down from the previous SNES game. I wasn't into Castlevania back at the time myself but I can see how it might have disappointed people after Super Castlevania IV. The completely nonsensical removal of a notched health display (so it's harder to gauge how many hits you can take), the somewhat cheap design in areas (largely due to the hit stun system and almost nonexistence invincibility time), and the reversion of a dedicated button for subweapon usage back to up + whip button (which was only ever needed because the NES and PC Engine controller lacked buttons) are all things that probably made some people thumb their noses at it. I'm sure people were pissed about the loss of multi-directional whipping too of course, but returning to the original whip system may have been for the best.

[Hagane]

XX does everything worse than Rondo. Physics are arthritic, level design much worse, boss fights in general way less memorable, Dracula's final form is a joke if you use axes (super damaging, hits on the way up and down), the key is silly as BIL has shown, and it's completely outclassed on visual and sound design departments. I could see people preferring X68000 and Bloodlines, but XX? A barely above average game that feels a bit embarrassing compared to the best games in the saga.

On topic, Gunforce games are cool though I feel they are a bit unpolished compared to the team's first Metal Slugs, though they are nice first efforts.

[BIL]

I actually consider XX far better than the first SFC game, just like all the other traditional console entries (Densetsu, Rondo, VK, X68k) that stuck closer to the original's tight, disciplined handling. I still like IV, but more on an aesthetic level. (not using JP titles to be an elitist prick, or even an awkward dick, I just go by what's sitting on my shelf >_>)

XX itself is inferior to Rondo, as we indeed scientifically determined over at Colonel Willy RZR's Goodtime Sidescrolling Shack a few months ago. But ala MS4, the source material is good enough to keep it worthwhile imo (though XX definitely creates some problems of its own). I really just brought up XX v Rondo to skim a bit of the froth off Obscura's Alien Soldier post, it was reminding me of his scandalously wrong assertion that Rondo is all hallways. ;3

I wish Bits Studio's SNES/SFC Gunforce port wasn't so nasty-feeling. AC's pretty fun if nowhere the rollicking entertainment of its sequel, and has some weird issues of its own (per Ghegs), but I'd totally have picked up a decent port.

[PooshhMao]

Be sure to overclock the main CPU in Geostorm to about 200% - it especially helps when you get the enhanced firepower power-up.

Wonderful game indeed, Irem doing what they do best - producing lovingly polished video games with masterful pixel art.

[PooshhMao]

Question: why is nobody taking Gunstar Super Heroes serious?
It's a splendid little game. Granted, the simplified weapon system is somewhat of a downer but it has tons going for it to make up for it.

The many Sega arcade game homages are just icing on the cake.

[MathU]

1)Wich is the harder game Arc Gradius or NES Contra
2)Compare your favourite Shooter to your favourite Run n Gun
3)Why are Shooters harder(most likely)
4)Why are Shooters relatively alive and Run n Guns dead meat(fanbase alive only trough retrogaming)
5)What are blast em ups

1) I would say that the arcade original Gradius is definitely harder. One point of comparison is that if you lose a ship around stage 4 in arcade Gradius it's very difficult to recover, while NES Contra lets you recover pretty much anywhere after a death (even that stupid mashing exercise at the trucks in stage 4). You can also play Contra at your own leisure and milk infinitely spawning enemies for extra lives if you're really desperate and have the patience. Plus, if you care about looping, arcade Gradius gets considerably more difficult on later loops while NES Contra barely changes at all. Once you get skilled enough to beat NES Contra without continuing you're pretty much set to repeat it on later loops; the same can't be said of arcade Gradius.

2) While they're not my absolute favorites in the genres, it's actually really interesting how Darius Gaiden and Metal Slug X both have an overabundance of significant random-value point items. How can it be that I'm drawn to these games with terrible scoring systems!

3) I would say the mean difficulty of non-platforming shooters isn't really all that much higher than the mean difficulty of run 'n' guns. You have to remember just how many shooters there are. Not every shooter is a Gradius III or a Dimahoo. If you take into account all the easier console-oriented run 'n' guns, then you have to take into account all the other console-oriented shooters as well. The later Metal Slug games are definitely at the high end of arcade game difficulty at least, and the original arcade Contra games are no slouches either (mostly due to frustrating design). But then there's a lot of games like Elevator Action Returns or Gunstar Heroes or Metroid which aren't too hard.

4) As for why there are so many other shooters compared to run 'n' guns, I think at the end of the day there are just a lot more possibilities for what sort of action you can set up in a shooter that lets you fly anywhere on the screen versus a platformer limited by gravity. Part of the problem could be that the Metal Slug series sets the bar so high in a number of areas that other developers are intimidated by it. Another issue may be the preeminence of the Metroid series and Cave Story that encourages developers to think in terms of open-world games (which itself may be a lot more work than designing linear action stages). The easiest answer however is probably the fact that auto-scrolling shooters with free movement are just plain some of the simplest types of games to design. Of course, making a good ones is a different story.

5) If only there were more blast 'em ups besides Bomberman.

Question: why is nobody taking Gunstar Super Heroes serious?

I frankly think it's an extremely overrated game with some serious design flaws and downright grating audio. Certain sections that will kill you if you come with the wrong weapons (requiring foreknowledge), a health gauge in place of tight design that would otherwise guarantee things are always avoidable, the hit stun system itself where bullets can "juggles" you and makes you keep taking more damage after the first hit--these issues actually have a lot in common with typical "Euroshmup" complaints. It also has some messy visual design that sometimes makes it unnecessarily difficult to determine what's happening on-screen during hectic moments. Oh and that gimmicky board game stage is still one of most tedious and boring stages ever featured in a run 'n' gun. The game has a lot of reasonable criticism that never seems to get brought up just because it's Treasure.

Edit: Oh jeez, I completely missed the "Super" bit in that quote.

[city41]

MS1 is my absolute favorite. Dieselpunk art style and jazz fusion music really make it stand out. The sequels may play well too but they look too silly and inconsistent imo. In terms of style, MS1 is like Garegga while the rest MS games are Batrider.

I agree. I used to love the crap out of Metal Slug (well 1, 2, X and 3 anyway, maaaybe 4). But nowadays I feel like the series is tired. I wish they had just made MS1 and MS2 (without the slowdown issues) and stopped. But of course money compelled them.

MS1 is still a top notch game to this day. Perfect pacing, nice difficulty, and beautiful. Occasionally I'll dig out 2, but X and above I never play anymore.

And to preemptively answer "why 2 not X?", 2 is the better game, it really is. Yes the slowdown is very annoying, but for X SNK felt like they had to make changes just to justify a new release. All of the changes were for the worse.

[uzernaem]

I wonder why there are MS1 level tiles in MSX rom. It's like SNK intended to make a compilation of sorts but run out of time. They sure didn't care about cartridge manufacturing costs (and went bankrupt the next year, lol). MSX rom is 50% bigger even though there is very little new content in the actual game to justify this size.

Going back to Geoforce/Gun Storm II, I really like how the two weapons system is implemented there. Contra 3 guys be jelly.

[Hagane]

2 is the better game, it really is.

No, it isn't at all. X is vastly better than 2 and I can't think of a single change that's not an improvement.

Stage design is vastly better all around, but particularly from stage four and onwards. Whereas in 2 stage 4 is a boring monotonous drag, X offers much more variety in obstacles, enemies and situations. In 4 you shoot for several seconds at inanimate obstacles like wooden ships and mobile artillery that do nothing except being in the way and slowing things down, while in X you have the fun and decently challenging rocket and UFO sections.

Stage 5 forces you to play most of the level on foot and a handgun, with few enemies, while on X you have the tank and have to face constant harassment from soldiers. The train section in 2 is equally boring, and you are stuck with the tank for the monster and boss sections. X gives you the more appropriate robot for those parts, turning the boss from a chore to a fun battle since it's much easier to actually shoot at it.

Stage 6 in MS2 suffers from the lack of X's new weapons, making the bridge section particularly cumbersome. The alien section is much more interesting in X also, both because it's more intense and you have better weaponry at your disposal. The final boss is equally silly on both games though.

X is overall a much faster and fun game, even if you don't factor MS2's hideous slowdown. The new weapons appear exactly where you need them and are evidently designed to deal with those particular spots, like the Iron Looser for stage 2 and the bridge at stage 6, or the bouncing shot for stage 3's snipers. Also you generally have much more ammo, so this translates into heavier firepower for speedkilling and less frustration from having to deal with resilient enemies with a handgun, or the monotony of having to use the Heavy Machinegun as you main weapon for most of the game.
These changes enable you to play very aggressively, and once you are familiar with the game you rarely have to stop moving forward at all, which makes for a more interesting experience than MS2's stilted pacing.

The new enemies also contribute to the improved design and add more variety in situations compared to MS2's monotonous arrangements of enemies. There's simply absolutely no reason at all to like 2 over X; the former is clearly a rushed beta of the real game. It boggles my mind how anyone can argue that 2 is better.

[uzernaem]

It boggles my mind how anyone can argue that 2 is better.

It's a matter of personal preference. Maybe some prefer the MS2 color palette choices and limited arsenal. Your userpic reminds me of my own similar case: I vastly prefer CPS1 Street Fighter II games over CPS2 Super Street Fighter II ones even though the latter are superior from the gameplay perspective.

[copy-paster]

Geoforce/Gun Storm II

[uzernaem]

Geoforce/Gun Storm II

[qmish]

Question: why is nobody taking Gunstar Super Heroes serious?

I do.

Actually, i was disappointed by original Megadrive/Genesis' Gunstar Heroes which was ultrahyped by nearly anyone. Maybe because i'm used to Metal Slugs, but Gunstar Heroes just plays lame and dull, at least that was my impression. Weapons are bad except for flamethrower, bosses are pseudo3D gimmick bullet sponges with no certain style, levels are uninspiring, graphics quality is not stable. Hard Corps destroys it, and i m not even a Contra fan.

So i was hugely surprised by Gunstar Super Heroes. While it doesnt have combine weapon thing etc., it's far more enjoyable for me. Movement is really smooth and responsive, i really like sliding and else; tension is kept well; and as a bonus, visuals are consistent and nice for it's platform.

That being said, Alien Soldier is the real king, even if i never manage to beat it (yet?). Well, Alien Soldier and Sin'n'Punishment are the real masterpieces by Treasure, everything else in their catalogue is getting too much hype, though many good games they made, yeah.

[MathU]

It boggles my mind how anyone can argue that 2 is better.

Another little thing that only really affects mission 2 of X is the way in which they altered knifing by allowing crouching or standing from a crouch to cancel the animation and let you knife again immediately after. It allows you to knife all those mummified enemies that take multiple hits much faster in X than 2 and makes the stage more fun when playing for score. In 2 you're stuck with the turn-left-and-right-while-crouching method which is more cumbersome.

If there's one valid complaint to be made against Metal Slug X it's that it added even more of those awful random-value point items that make scoring so frustrating.

[qmish]

About Metal Slug 3, i'll answer "why love?" from a casual viewpoint.
It's cool! All those different enemies and level branches, really blow your mind when you first play it.

Only later you find out what's wrong in gameplay etc.

[Obscura]

[...] more difficult on later loops while NES Contra barely changes at all.

Wat

As for the Gunstar Super Heroes topic, eh, that game sucks. The run and gun zako portions are fucking tepid, the constant genre shifts do the game no favors, and Seven Force (the one good part of the original Gunstar Heroes) isn't near as good as the original.

Oh, and the boardgame level is even longer and shittier.

Love the first Gunforce game. Couldn't ever get into the second; the pacing seemed too "stop and go", with big, empty rooms where you fight waves of enemies. Lame.

(And Rondo is almost all hallways, aside from the clocktower level, which is weaker than XX's clocktower, anyways. XX's level design is infinitely better. The only thing that Rondo has on XX is Shaft's Ghost.)

[BIL]

(And Rondo is almost all hallways, aside from the clocktower level, which is weaker than XX's clocktower, anyways. XX's level design is infinitely better. The only thing that Rondo has on XX is Shaft's Ghost.)

XX has as much (if not more) flat ground, and far fewer stages (and branches, enemies, bosses, player characters...) than Rondo. Alzheimer's motherfucker do you have it ¦3

IDGAF really but this is some 2+2=22 shit you peddle on the topic. o_o As a humble Dorakyuraologist I can't abide! Did an import gamestore owner bum your cat or something? You seem personally angry at the PCE game for some reason, it's kinda awkward.

And you've simultaneously impugned XX's sole emphatic triumph! Its clocktower isn't merely "stronger," it's one of the finest ever traditional Dracula levels! With one of the finest ever bosses! (uh... if you've not bent over for the BAD END to enjoy stage 5' first, at least! LMAO)

[MathU]

[...] more difficult on later loops while NES Contra barely changes at all.

Wat

What? It's true. Last time I played through NES Contra I got to the fourth loop before getting too bored to go on, and I still can't remember what changed! I think it might throw very slightly more grunt enemies at you in certain areas but that's about it. You just hold onto that Spread shot and R power-up and a playthrough from one loop to the next is practically identical.

[BIL]

I'm not entirely sure if the NES version does in fact start a loop lower, but the FC one doesn't change all that radically in further loops. Basically it turns up the runner spawn frequency, which can mildly complicate platforming/environment hazards, and occasionally make recovering from a death trickier than usual. I've cleared all six of its (tracked) loops and the difference is mostly felt in the sheer number of runners getting blown away (the game's a perpetual chorus of gloriously rich Maezawasplosions at its crowdier points). Never especially hard, but still lots of fun for the occasional marathon. It also stops giving extends at some point - I never worked out the trigger for this but it's hardly a big deal. You can hit thirtysomething easily before the cutoff.

Interesting post on the game's various routines here.

[Obscura]

(And Rondo is almost all hallways, aside from the clocktower level, which is weaker than XX's clocktower, anyways. XX's level design is infinitely better. The only thing that Rondo has on XX is Shaft's Ghost.)

XX has as much (if not more) flat ground, and far fewer stages (and branches, enemies, bosses, player characters...) than Rondo. Alzheimer's motherfucker do you have it ¦3

When someone goes looking for screenshots to show that the game "isn't all hallways!", and the very first one is a hallway, I think it pretty much proves my point.

Also, LOL @ listing Rondo's extra bosses as a "benefit". Yeah, Camilla, Mummy, Dogether, Medusa, and Wyvern are sooooo good, amirite? Having those extra bosses of such high quality is totally better than having a better Death and a better Dracula (not to mention a better stage 1 boss that's XX exclusive...)!

[Squire Grooktook]

It's a hallway filled with instant death pits (platforming etc.) and a giant boss monster chasing you*. That's a pretty big farcry from the actual "rectangular rooms full of tanky enemies" found in SOTN (a lot of stuff in Cv1-3 would also count as "just hallways" if we go by that logic, too). Nor would it invalidate the other examples, if it were.

*Not to mention the very next setpiece has more pits to jump over and stuff to jump on as well.

[BIL]

Damn, I was slow! I'm typing this with one hand! >w< the other is on ebay you dirty devils! ;3

When someone goes looking for screenshots to show that the game "isn't all hallways!", and the very first one is a hallway, I think it pretty much proves my point.

No no no, that's a very specific setpiece involving a pincer hazard playing off of frequent pits with the constant risk of either instant goring/zako/falling death or landing in fishman hell. This featureless drudge is what anyone of taste would regard as a hallway, and XX has many more where it came from. Here's another, which incidentally you can't fight Death without sitting through! Good job you've got that interesting no-subweapon clause to - wait, never mind, they didn't bother playtesting the key.

Also, LOL @ listing Rondo's extra bosses as a "benefit". Yeah, Camilla, Mummy, Dogether, Medusa, and Wyvern are sooooo good, amirite? Having those extra bosses of such high quality is totally better than having a better Death and a better Dracula (not to mention a better stage 1 boss that's XX exclusive...)!

Nothing wrong with any of those. Camilla's got a fun mortar/familiar/curse triple threat to avoid. Mummy and Medusa are obviously minibosses meant for squashing, and deployed in a five-fold rush where even a small error can prove fatal by attrition. Funny how XX nicked the equally silly Giant Bat for a proper boss, and forgot all about the only really first-rate one of the lot, Creature. Then again, with how utterly XX fucked up Dullahan via his brand-new huge, empty room, would it have worked out anyway?

Wyvern's no more or less tedious than Cerberus (dies quicker, actually... meanwhile his partner Serpent also got ruined by a combination of an idiotic new arena and artificial view-restricting difficulty). And if for some reason he offends you that much you can avoid him, just like Dogether! In fact you can mix and match the game's boss lineup as you see fit, because Rondo's idea of nonlinearity isn't "grab your ankles and fail these trivial jumps!"

XX Death's fantastic on account of his new arena, yep (for a merciful change), but Rondo's was fine anyway. Hardly evens out all the omissions and shitty downgrades elsewhere. Dracula sucks in both, but XX's can at least be infuriatingly tedious if you're not a total pro like me, I'll give him that.

I don't mind playing along btw. The copout "well I've not played either game in a decade, nyah!" ending was a little bemusing the first time around, but it adds to the amusement on a repeat viewing. ¦3

It's not even off-topic, really - it's like the origin story of your equally useless Alien Soldier criticism! (or maybe you're just dishonest or outright delusional... eh, it's ultimately all make-believe anyway)

[Obscura]

When someone goes looking for screenshots to show that the game "isn't all hallways!", and the very first one is a hallway, I think it pretty much proves my point.

No no no, that's a very specific setpiece involving a pincer hazard playing off of frequent pits with the constant risk of either instant goring/zako/falling death or landing in fishman hell. This featureless drudge is what anyone of taste would regard as a hallway, and XX has many more where it came from. Here's another, which incidentally you can't fight Death without sitting through! Good job you've got that interesting no-subweapon clause to - wait, never mind, they didn't bother playtesting the key.

The pirate ship level alone of Rondo has more pure hallways with nothing to do but kill enemies placed right in front of you than every clip linked in your post. And in that level, you don't have enemies above and below that are capable of attacking.

We'll ignore the fact that "walk forward, whip zombies" is what you have just claimed is a good setpiece.

XX's Giant Bat has entirely different patterns than Rondo's.

(Oh, and Alien Soldier is also retarded and terrible. That should have been obvious, though, given who the developer was.)

[BIL]

Haha, yep. Walk forward and whip zombies until you fall in a hole and die. Oops, let's jump this time. Oh crap, the zombies appear erratically and if you land on one the bull will kill you. Let's focus 100% on staying alive, ignore the candles and never get the game's other playable character! I do love your True and Honest brand of criticism. ¦3

XX's giant bat is trivially easy to tie up and doesn't have four bosses backing him up, so even if he could hit me it'd be of little use. Utterly pointless hackjob boss. I can link you to my video again if you like.

Nobody said Rondo doesn't have hallways, it obviously does (it likes to put long-range shooters at the ends of them, like the ship's rifle and archer skeletons). It has those and a lot of involved platforming besides. XX has a handful of comparably decent levels and a ton of mediocrity.

I'd expect a literal retard to spend five minutes on Alien Soldier bosses. :/

[Squire Grooktook]

The pirate ship level alone of Rondo has more pure hallways with nothing to do but kill enemies placed right in front of you than every clip linked in your post. And in that level, you don't have enemies above and below that are capable of attacking.

The imps can attack you from above, and the first phase of the stage is substantial platforming.

(Oh, and Alien Soldier is also retarded and terrible. That should have been obvious, though, given who the developer was.)

It must also be stressed again that you do not know how to play Alien Soldier. The stated complaint that the Zero Teleport removes the need to manually space is objectively wrong: zero teleporting robs you of the ability to punish, and eventually damage bosses at all (and again, later ones will punish it too!). Alien Soldier is a very intense game of spacing because you need to manually dodge many attacks in order to optimally punish enemies.

It's only because the developers were being forgiving that you are able to "simon says" in the early game at all. Playing that way is equivalent to playing Dragon Blaze without Dragon Shoot: gimpy but doable early, a real clusterfuck later.

Alien Soldier's early game is far faster and more efficient once you actually know what you're doing and are using the games mechanics as intended. And the mid/late game cannot be beaten with "simon says" whether you memorize it to hell and back or not (you literally cannot even get close to some weakpoints if you don't manually dodge).