Do you miss the pre bullet hell era?

[Squire Grooktook]

Environmental hazards in verts were rarer compared to hori's, but they were present.

Examples:

Image Fight
Super Aleste
Radiant Silvergun (uhhhh this might count as bullet hell depending on who you ask)
Life Force / Salamander (half the time lol)
Undeadline
Elemental Master
Mahou Daisakusen and Shippu Mahou Daisakusen
Dragon Spirit and Dragon Saber
Gemini Wing

[AxelMill]

Environmental hazards in verts were rarer compared to hori's, but they were present.

Examples:

Image Fight
Super Aleste
Radiant Silvergun (uhhhh this might count as bullet hell depending on who you ask)
Life Force / Salamander (half the time lol)
Undeadline
Elemental Master
Mahou Daisakusen and Shippu Mahou Daisakusen
Dragon Spirit and Dragon Saber
Gemini Wing

Also Ikaruga.

I love horis much more than verts. I really do.
One of the reasons, which may or may not be already mentioned: they were memorable.
I can remember every stage of Gradius V, Metal Black, Gaiden and G-Darius, R-Type I, Delta and Final, Thunder Force III and IV, Einhander, etcetera.
I can't remember every stage of DoDonPachi (I do remember that DOJ's last stage is kind of like DDP's first), Ketsui, Musha, Touhou, Gekirindan...
One of the deciding factors is their backgrounds. In every vert, you fly above cities, evil fortresses, seas. In horis, there can be a black hole in the background that engulfs nearby planets, and you fly into that black hole. You can fly in pitch darkness while two gigantic people make out in the background. You can fly above a devastated metropolis, as rain floods everything and your ultimate enemy can be barely seen when a thunder lights up the night.
Horis' enemy patterns are built around the stages. In verts, enemies are all there is.

[Squire Grooktook]

One of the deciding factors is their backgrounds. In every vert, you fly above cities, evil fortresses, seas. In horis, there can be a black hole in the background that engulfs nearby planets, and you fly into that black hole....Horis' enemy patterns are built around the stages. In verts, enemies are all there is.

Guwange tho

Probably the most atmospheric shmup of all time IMO.

[AxelMill]

One of the deciding factors is their backgrounds. In every vert, you fly above cities, evil fortresses, seas. In horis, there can be a black hole in the background that engulfs nearby planets, and you fly into that black hole....Horis' enemy patterns are built around the stages. In verts, enemies are all there is.

Guwange tho

Probably the most atmospheric shmup of all time IMO.

Judging from some images, it appears to me as a vertical X-Multiply. I need to give it a shot ASAP.
Especially because of the last sentence you made. I love Final because of that, and I thought nothing could top it.

Spoiler

We all agree that Final is really atmospheric, right? Don't want to create a war like I did (more like contributed to do) the one regarding DBCS's price.

[Squire Grooktook]

Guwange is set in feudal Japan, so I don't think it looks like X-Multiply =P

But it's environmental hazard heaven and the mechanics reminds me of an IREM game in some ways. Not to mention stage 3 is gorgeous.

Also R-Type Final: eh, I thought the final stage was inredibly atmospheric. Rest of the game was a bit bland aesthetically IMO. The dip into Dobkeratops tank was cool though.

[Strikers1945guy]

Guwange is definitely the best game for cave art and atmosphere. Tragic that the game play couldn't hold up though >_>

[AxelMill]

Guwange is set in feudal Japan, so I don't think it looks like X-Multiply =P

But it's environmental hazard heaven and the mechanics reminds me of an IREM game in some ways. Not to mention stage 3 is gorgeous.

Also R-Type Final: eh, I thought the final stage was inredibly atmospheric. Rest of the game was a bit bland aesthetically IMO. The dip into Dobkeratops tank was cool though.

Well, it definitely did deliver on the creepyness department

I can't honestly say I loved it (both the game and the third stage), but it was kinda enjoyable. Not a game I'd come back to a lot, if at all.
What I did like was that a Cave game finally lets me savour the entirerity of the offering. I hate that, unless you no-miss, no-bomb (and also collect every hidden item) it, it leaves you with a standard, unmemorable boss fight. Every Cave game I played besides DOJ (the kind-of Hibachi was acceptable) and this one had me realize I finished it only when the credits rolled. Anticlimactic endings one after another.

I guess we were talking about different stuff, haha. You used the right meaning, though.
By atmospheric I meant depressing, and it's not your fault that you couldn't understand what I meant.
I am a sad person and I like sad games, so that's why I like one of the most overhated games in the shmup community.

[Squire Grooktook]

It's an amazing game if you take the time to 1cc it, I definitely recommend working on it if you ever have time.

[AxelMill]

It's an amazing game if you take the time to 1cc it, I definitely recommend working on it if you ever have time.

I wrote my sig seconds before reading your reply, haha.
I have so many more games more deserving a 1CC treatment by yours truly, but I completely lack the will power and attention span to do any of that. Vanilla DariusBurst was the only game in which I put enough time and effort to 1CC the first two routes, and that's because I had nothing else to play at the time (besides a few more dozens of shmups via emulation, but that was the game I enjoyed the most) and it was the easiest shmup I've ever played besides Shienryu Explosion (/Steel Dragon EX) and Zanac Neo. I 1CC'd the latter on my first try, at school.

Sorry for the off-topic, people.

[Squire Grooktook]

It's okay, there's no shame in that lol.

I find that a 1cc is necessary to producing a sense of "tension" and excitement. I don't really care about the achievement itself, just the thrill of struggling for survival.

My first "real" 1cc was Darius Gaiden, if that helps. Might be tricky for a newcomer, but it's a fun game that might teach some fundamentals.

[AxelMill]

It's okay, there's no shame in that lol.

I find that a 1cc is necessary to producing a sense of "tension" and excitement. I don't really care about the achievement itself, just the thrill of struggling for survival.

My first "real" 1cc was Darius Gaiden, if that helps. Might be tricky for a newcomer, but it's a fun game that might teach some fundamentals.

Spoiler

I don't need tension, without it, I still consider shoot'em ups the best genre there is. I've honestly never played a genre so exciting and fun to play. I did start to truly adore it via illegal means, (casually discovering that the PSP has become easier to mod) but still, without it, I'd have missed every single entry in this genre save for the few games inside Taito Legends 2.

What a difficult first 1CC yours was. I'll say it again, I'm a terrible player, but even after playing it countless times (Darius holds a special place in my heart, that's why), I can barely reach half of it. EDIT: No, I can't even defeat Folding Fan.
Then again, my OCD for the powerups makes the game much, much harder.

Still, sorry for the OT.

[LordHypnos]

I found Mars Matrix's individual stages to be incredibly memorable and unique. Then again it's mostly not the scenery (though I remember that too, for the most part), and more that each stage feels very different in how you need to approach it strategically. Probably just b/c I played it way too many times, though.

[R79]

What era are we talking about here, 1989 backwards? Raiden (1990) starts pumping out a lot of fast bullet waves with aimed side shots after the first few stages, and the hitbox is pretty much the entire ship...

EDIT: Raiden II is basically a poor man's Garegga over more stages. Came out same year as Batsugun, another bullet spraying beast of a game, 23 years ago!

[emphatic]

I miss getting power-ups and dodging weapon-changing items that are floating around the screen for a full minute in the shape of ramen. I miss dying with a 15 x bomb stock that doesn't even give a stage clear bonus.

[R79]

Powered down restart points

I haven't played it for a while, but Twin Cobra (1987) on Mega Drive has all of the above, plus plenty of fast, aimed enemy shots as you progress. Could be the screen distortion making this version tougher than it's meant to be, hmm.

[d0s]

I miss caravan shooters and compile style stuff, and really methodical hori's like R-Type. Nothing wrong with bullet hell but it's not my personal favorite style of shooter and I'd love to see a modern take on something like Blazing Lazers by a good dev.

e: I also miss the atmosphere of a lot of late 80's-mid 90's shooters, the dark and organic stuff and the cyberpunk stuff. I don't understand why so much today has to be so bright and kinda weirdly cheery with waifus etc. Would love to see a return to dark and intricate SF designs but not necessarily with retro throwback 16-bit pixel art, a totally modern take on that stuff by a good dev would be nuts.

e2: I also generally miss "outer space" in shooters. that fun and kinda innocent "toy-like" feeling star soldier thing with cool mecha designs and bright colors set against outer space is cool as hell imo

[professor ganson]

I find environmental hazards stressful and I'm just not good at dealing with them.

The thing I miss most about 80s shmups: aiming/targeting of the sort required in games like Xevious, King and Balloon, Space Invaders, Galaga... I love that sort of thing.

I'm not sure I care about having new shooters remind me of the things I love about 80s and 90s shooters. There's such a wealth of older games to return to and I can just go to them for nostalgia purposes. So in one sense I don't miss the pre bullet hell era: it's alive and well in my living room!

[Gamer707b]

I was just thinking about this when I was driving today.(I think about all kind of random stuff when I drive) Im not a scorer but rather I play to complete my games. Something about the 16 bit shooters that have so much charm. A perfect balance of complexity and simplicity. Axelay, Space Megaforce, Gaiares and so on. Today on an unexpected day off I was rotating playing Super R type on my Super Nes and the awesome Gaiares on my Genny. So for me personally , I go with pre bullet hell , but at the same time appreciate the evolution made with bullet hell.

[gs68]

Sometimes I imagine someone making a Touhou fangame, but with the game design of late 80's and early 90's shooters (though maybe without frustrating elements like total powerup loss upon death), just to fuck with fans whose only STG experience ever is Touhou.

"Oh, there's like 10 bullets on the screen max, this is way too eas--(sniped by fairy in a bush)"

[BIL]

"Oh, there's like 10 bullets on the screen max, this is way too eas--(sniped by fairy in a bush)"

edit: also, that would fuck with Raiden fans too! bush fairies are supposed to be a good thing!

[Squire Grooktook]

I'm not sure I care about having new shooters remind me of the things I love about 80s and 90s shooters. There's such a wealth of older games to return to and I can just go to them for nostalgia purposes. So in one sense I don't miss the pre bullet hell era: it's alive and well in my living room!

Well, my thing is that I feel there's a lot of unexplored territory with newer stg's in terms of incoporating some of the forgotten elements of older games. Say, the greater emphasis on complex sight reading + unique weapon/environmental gimmicks + deeper scoring systems. That would be very interesting to me.

[charlie chong]

i miss toaplan
especially sniper tanks
they make me laugh

[chum]

I'm not sure I care about having new shooters remind me of the things I love about 80s and 90s shooters. There's such a wealth of older games to return to and I can just go to them for nostalgia purposes. So in one sense I don't miss the pre bullet hell era: it's alive and well in my living room!

Well, my thing is that I feel there's a lot of unexplored territory with newer stg's in terms of incoporating some of the forgotten elements of older games. Say, the greater emphasis on complex sight reading + unique weapon/environmental gimmicks + deeper scoring systems. That would be very interesting to me.

just play fiary wars and double spoiler

[AxelMill]

I'm not sure I care about having new shooters remind me of the things I love about 80s and 90s shooters. There's such a wealth of older games to return to and I can just go to them for nostalgia purposes. So in one sense I don't miss the pre bullet hell era: it's alive and well in my living room!

Well, my thing is that I feel there's a lot of unexplored territory with newer stg's in terms of incoporating some of the forgotten elements of older games. Say, the greater emphasis on complex sight reading + unique weapon/environmental gimmicks + deeper scoring systems. That would be very interesting to me.

just play fiary wars and double spoiler

Say what you will about Touhou, but the series has anything but environmental gimmicks. There isn't even a single ground enemy, let alone hazards.

Radiant Silvergun is the closest thing I can think of right now. It's not new, neither to me nor to you, but still.

[chum]

unique weapon/environmental gimmicks = unique weapon or environmental gimmicks, no? not necessarily both at the same time, is how i interpreted it

so again, just play fairy wars or double spoiler because you're not gonna find anything else as good as those anyway.

[AxelMill]

unique weapon/environmental gimmicks = unique weapon or environmental gimmicks, no? not necessarily both at the same time, is how i interpreted it

so again, just play fairy wars or double spoiler because you're not gonna find anything else as good as those anyway.

Huh, he did put a slash instead of a plus there, you're right. Why not both, though?

You're also right about how good those two games are! I didn't know anything about Double Spoilers, I didn't expect it to be good Pokemon Snap. I also like the fact that it's divided in scenes. The two chapters (out of three? I hope not) I played have the same exact music, which is kind of a bummer.
I already played Fairy Wars, and despite the main character's artwork looking like a cosplaying boy, it has the best charge mechanic since Mars Matrix. Or even better, I have to decide yet.

So, yeah, two thumbs up. I don't know why I tried the former after reading this specific post and not one of the other I read before, but yeah, thanks, chum.

[Stevens]

a totally modern take on that stuff by a good dev would be nuts.

One of the things I love about Under Defeat is exactly that - it's mostly old school, but on better hardware.

I would kill for the following:

A - G Rev to do a modern day/futuristic helicopter shooter. Same mechanics as UD would be fine, just on updated hardware.

or

B - Under Defeat getting Strania: Side Vower treatment where you would play as the Union, and fly an Allied plane NOT used in the Strikers series:D

My dreams are simple..

[SYJourney]

Sometimes I imagine someone making a Touhou fangame, but with the game design of late 80's and early 90's shooters (though maybe without frustrating elements like total powerup loss upon death), just to fuck with fans whose only STG experience ever is Touhou.

"Oh, there's like 10 bullets on the screen max, this is way too eas--(sniped by fairy in a bush)"

The pc-engine touhous are a bit like this, from what I recall the hitbox on ship and bullets is definitely bigger + there are more patterns which focus on speed instead of weaving through them.

[Knockworstface]

Yes. I prefer oldschool arcade style shooters like Phoenix & Pleiades over the crazy bullet hell shmups of today.

[Hagane]

I see people repeating again and again that they miss the days when STGs weren't "impossible" to clear as modern danmaku games are... yet most modern (post PGM Cave basically) danmaku STGs are much easier to clear than oldschool games. Generically speaking newer Cave or Touhou games have very accessible lower difficulties, and are vastly easier to clear (meaning, a basic full survival 1CC) than something like Konami / Irem classics that gave you very few resources and were extremely punishing on death.

I believe this is just a lack of understanding of danmaku basics, which makes people freak out when they see lots of bullets on screen even if most of them are not directly threatening.