Question regarding CRT Triniton Vs PVM monitor.

[Hoagtech]

Probably line doubling 240p to 480i, hence what the service menu says. Since the active 240p lines are doubled and dont contain any different picture info-- the "vibrating" lines of actual 480i content will not occur. This is par for the course for consumer HDCRT sets.

I have yet to see any consumer HD sets that will actually change to 15kHz and display only 240 active lines. I dont believe anything outside of certain broadcast monitors was ever made that can do that.

I meant that when he says "the lines become still", what he sees on his TV at that moment is a 480 progressive scan image. Not a 240p image.
Cause SFP tubes can't display 240p. Lowest they go is 480 interlaced and 480 progressive.

With my earlier post, Im agreeing with you-- the set is actually line doubling the 240p and displaying it in a 480 line frame. It is technically recognizing and displaying it as 480i though-- but because the 240p fields are not alternating, but sent to the set 60 times a second, it is actually line doubling that 240p/60 to 480i/60, but since the line doubled fields are not changing, what you actually end up with is equivalent to a 480p image!

My old TC P50X60 plasma used to handle 240p the same way-- it would kick the set into 480i mode, but unless you actually fed the set 480i, you did not get the "vibrating" fields.

Your explanation pleases me. Now if you can tell me why my 480p signal is interlaced in this same tv. That would be great.

My tv is the Sony KV-34XBR910

[kamiboy]

Most likely because your TV upscales 480p to 1080i.

[Josh128]

Your explanation pleases me. Now if you can tell me why my 480p signal is interlaced in this same tv. That would be great.

My tv is the Sony KV-34XBR910

Need some more info-- what system and what type of connection are you using for 480p? Does your On Screen Display actually show 480p?

I take it you are seeing "line crawl" or flicker or something of the sort? What happens if you feed it 720p? Do you still see the line crawl?

The only way you will see line crawl with 480p is if the set is taking that signal and upscaling it to 1080i, which is very strange. The only way that can happen is if the set is not capable of true 480p.

Connect a system that lets you switch from 480p to 720p to 1080i, like a Xbox 360 or a PC. Compare the 3. If the 480p and 1080i show similar line crawl, then it would be my guess that your set is really only capable of 720p and 1080i. If this is the case, it means that its actually line TRIPPLING 240p to a 720p frame, which would still eliminate the line crawl.

[BazookaBen]

480p is not its strong suit. It's doesn't even treat 480p as a progressive signal and interlaces it.

Most likely because your TV upscales 480p to 1080i.

Both of you guys are wrong. There are threads on AVSForum that explain how it really works.

Sony HD TV Sets are only capable of scanning at 33.75hz (so either 540p or 1080i). BUT they are able to acheive true 480p by simply displaying the 480 lines in the middle of a 540 line frame, and overscanning the black bars. Therefore, you have a true progressive 480 line progressive image.

For 15hz(240p/480i) sources, it also has the option to to put a 960 lines image inside the 1080i frame, giving a true 960 line interlaced image.

I have a CRU profile for Sony HD CRT's that shows how all this works, I'll try to upload it this weekend when I can hook up my PC.

[Josh128]

Indeed it is an odd beast then...but that leaves the question-- how in the world does it deal with 720p?

Also, if it line doubles 480p to 960 lines in a 1080i frame, the image should not exhibit line crawl, it should appear a solid image just as he is saying it does when displaying 240p (recognizing it as 480i). Each 540p frame would display the exact same image, so it would appear as a solid, progressive image. He is saying that it is either exhibiting line crawl or flicker though, if I understand that correctly. Something doesnt add up.

I'd like to hear back from him to see what he finds if he performs the 480p, 720p, 1080i testing.

[BazookaBen]

He shouldn't be seeing line crawl with 480p sources. He would only see line crawl with a 240p/480i source and DRC set to interlace.

720p is downscaled to 1080i. There's actually an official Sony information sheet (maybe from a service manual?) that explains all this, I saw it somewhere on AVSForum.

[Hoagtech]

Well @bazookaben. I am seeing it. Not just on GameCube component but ps2 and Xbox as well.

And It does not happen on my 240p sources. I have DRC turned off too. And furthermore it does not have any lag "problem" even on full mode for 240p sources. I have a Leo bodnar but I cannot use it on this tv because it only supports native resolution of 1080p.

And I see where your coming from claiming my set has lag inherit with image processing of its time for 1080i CRT's at the time but this set has been highly reccomended for 16:9 competitive gaming for being able to turn off "motionflow" and "DRC".

I play my games on lag tested monitors and can feel the difference 30ms makes so I can tell you by personal experience it doesn't show or feel any noticeable lag.

[BazookaBen]

You sure you have your Gamecube and Xbox set to 480p? I've used a Hi-Scan tube very recently and it didn't have line crawl on 480p like I do with the downscaled 720p.

On the sets I've used you can't turn off DRC with 15hz sources.

And as far as lag goes, all I can say is that I played Wipeout Pulse (PS2) in 480p wide-mode on my Hi-Scan tube after switching from an old 480i display and I noticed the lag instantly. Made the game much harder to play in the faster classes.

[Josh128]

Just out of curiosity I googled "Hitachi Ultravision Digital 36" craigslist " and got a good hit...


Heres one in Michigan they are GIVING away. Anybody in that area who would like the ultimate (in my humble opinion) 4:3 480p CRT, go snap it up! Its a monstrous beast with phenomenal PQ.

http://nmi.craigslist.org/ele/5258659070.html

[Ed Oscuro]

Doh, that'd be a 5 hour trip for me. No newer than my 27" either. Thanks for sharing though

[BazookaBen]

How does it even get 480p? It only has s-video on back

[Ed Oscuro]

Check the middle row on that block of inputs - Y, Pb, and Pr inputs.

It's listed as a 1080i set, it's doing the 1-frame scaling or scan conversion to 480i/480p content, right?

[BazookaBen]

Check the middle row on that block of inputs - Y, Pb, and Pr inputs.

It's listed as a 1080i set, it's doing the 1-frame scaling or scan conversion to 480i/480p content, right?

Dunno, Sony used the centering method for 480p, if that's what you mean. Not sure how other companies did it.

[Josh128]

I had the 1999 version of the set, it was black and also had a VGA input and was capable of 640x480 or 800x600 VGA, and 480p or 1080i Y Pr Pb. According to the manual it was capable of true progressive scan 480p or interlaced 1080i. It did not accept 720p. It also had very deep blacks.

However the 480p was technically accomplished, it was sharp and stunning, whether in stills or motion. Its my personal gold standard for GC/Xbox/DC/PS2 480p. Its 480i was just "meh"-- but it had several options which could be change to affect the look.

If this was within a few hours of me I wouldnt think twice about snapping it up.

[Taiyaki]

For what it's worth I would pick a consumer set over a PVM/BVM any day of the week. I've had two BVM's (selling one right now) and although they're fantastic crt's that were way ahead of their time, the problem is with these advances also comes the loss of what makes crt's so appealing for classic gaming in the first place.

With a PVM/BVM you're going to get an image much closer to what you'd get with LCD's and emulated scanlines with the only benefit being no input lag and perhaps better contrast & colors (depending on the range of LCD you're comparing with). However you also end up with the flaws least desirable of crt's, those being geometry issues and convergence issues (although the later is much easier to fix than on consumer sets).

I'm totally ocd about geometry and to be honest a good consumer set does just as well and at least with that you'll get all the other desirable attributes that make crt's so good with classic gaming. There is no perfect geometry with crt's is the reality I've come to accept. Even when everything is lining up perfectly there are always sections of the screen that will warp in one direction and will be noticeable in some games when moving in certain directions with certain backgrounds.

So for what it's worth I'd recommend getting a Sony Trinitron consumer set, do your best to fine tune it and enjoy classic gaming as you remember it.

[BazookaBen]

Yeah, I sort of agree with Taiyaki now that I have a few PVM's and a consumer Trinitron. The scanlines are a little too thick on the PVM, the consumer set has much thinner lines, which reminds more of childhood and the arcades. Problem is, my consumer set was on the lower-end, so the colors are not nearly as pure as my PVM. So I'm currently on the lookout for a better 27" trinitron.

For 480i, though, PVM is probably better in almost all cases, thanks to the high line count on the 20" and higher models.

[kamiboy]

To throw in my own advice I'd say if you want the best of both worlds go with a PVM 2530, or 2950. You get the better build quality of a PVM, and the bigger size and low-fi CRT look of a good consumer TV all in one good looking package.

I'll never forgive myself for letting my mint unit go. I cannot believe I was such an idiot. It had the best, most pleasing picture that I ever saw from a CRT.

[Hoagtech]

To throw in my own advice I'd say if you want the best of both worlds go with a PVM 2530, or 2950. You get the better build quality of a PVM, and the bigger size and low-fi CRT look of a good consumer TV all in one good looking package.

I'll never forgive myself for letting my mint unit go. I cannot believe I was such an idiot. It had the best, most pleasing picture that I ever saw from a CRT.

I would love the chance to see why a BVM would be better or worse but The availability of the bigger screen sizes being limited has left me in the dark.

If I could get a Pvm couch worthy without burn in and good peak white point I would be in like sin. Just to experience it properly for the first time ever.

[atheistgod1999]

Trinitrons kept giving me extreme convergence problems, so I got a BVM and it's near-perfect.

[nissling]

The BVMs ARE Trinitrons as well, but rather grade1 reference monitors than consumer products.

[Taiyaki]

Yeah, you could also have fixed the convergence on the consumer set but you'd have to get inside and play with the knobs and add magnetic strips around the yoke, sort of dangerous unless you have supervision or know what you're doing.