Bad sequels

[D]

Which shmups have bad sequels?
To me Gunbird is one such legacy. GB2 looks cheap compared to the original GB has such a good vibe.

Can't really think of any other.

[Plasmo]

Espgaluda maybe?!

[Neon]

That's only graphics, Gunbird 2 is exponentially better gameplay wise. Gunbird 1's so fucking mindless, 2 has coin chaining and the charge mechanic from strikers 2, among other things. Since there's nothing to improve on in GB1's early levels, replaying them is a chore. Not so with 2.

Espgaluda maybe?!

Have to disagree here as well:

http://www.free-conversant.com/gaming_journals/2329

[Plasmo]

no i mean espgaluda 2 is the bad sequel (MAYBE)
espgaluda is okish

[CIT]

Raystorm and Raycrisis

Gradius III and IV

Dodonpachi II

Shippuu Mahou Daisakusen

Not saying these are necessarily bad games, but they just don't quite have the oompf of what came before.

[Nei First]

Do spiritual sequels count? If so then I would say Ikaruga.

[professor ganson]

Which shmups have bad sequels?
To me Gunbird is one such legacy. GB2 looks cheap compared to the original GB has such a good vibe.

Can't really think of any other.

D, Gunbird 2 is one of the best shooters ever made. Yeah, it's not the deepest shooter, score-system wise, and it doesn't quite have the polish, visually or otherwise, of Dragon Blaze, but it's a game that demands and rewards true commitment. Bliss for fans of pure shooters.

[SAM]

Raystorm and Raycrisis

Dodonpachi II

Second that, especially DDP II.

[llabnip]

Raystorm and Raycrisis
Gradius III and IV
Dodonpachi II
Shippuu Mahou Daisakusen
Not saying these are necessarily bad games, but they just don't quite have the oompf of what came before.

I agree with all these... and also agree they are not necessarily bad, I don't like them as much as the originals. I'd also add Gunbird which far outpaces GB2 in terms of charm, style and atmosphere (plus I simply hate the close-proximity-attack of GB2). But I wouldn't call any of these games bad... ok... maybe Raycrisis (yeah, I know there are supporters of the game - that's fine... to each their own). I'm guessing the newer Silpheed isn't particuarlly good compared to the original, but I've only played the original.

Gunbird 1's so fucking mindless

And that may be its biggest charm. Pure shooting in a nice atmospheric way. I prefer most of the early Psikyo games to latter ones (and Gunbird, Strikers 1945 I and Sengoku Ace are my 3 favoriate Psikyo games - all continue to be favorites that I'd play anytime).

[Zweihander]

no i mean espgaluda 2 is the bad sequel (MAYBE)
espgaluda is okish

ESPGaluda? ok-ish?

BLASPHEMY!

[Andi]

No mention of Thunderforce 2 yet? Interesting.

[shariar07]

Shinryu 2
Ray Crisis
Raiden 3

For me these are the top three bad sequels

[CIT]

No mention of Thunderforce 2 yet? Interesting.

Thunderforce II is worse than Thunderforce?

[captain ahar]

tetsujin oh is a step down from the first.

edit: a BIG step

[Neon]

Raystorm and Raycrisis
Gradius III and IV
Dodonpachi II
Shippuu Mahou Daisakusen
Not saying these are necessarily bad games, but they just don't quite have the oompf of what came before.

I agree with all these... and also agree they are not necessarily bad, I don't like them as much as the originals. I'd also add Gunbird which far outpaces GB2 in terms of charm, style and atmosphere (plus I simply hate the close-proximity-attack of GB2). But I wouldn't call any of these games bad... ok... maybe Raycrisis (yeah, I know there are supporters of the game - that's fine... to each their own). I'm guessing the newer Silpheed isn't particuarlly good compared to the original, but I've only played the original.

Gunbird 1's so fucking mindless

And that may be its biggest charm. Pure shooting in a nice atmospheric way. I prefer most of the early Psikyo games to latter ones (and Gunbird, Strikers 1945 I and Sengoku Ace are my 3 favoriate Psikyo games - all continue to be favorites that I'd play anytime).

You fuckers. Shippu MD is brilliant and one of the top 5 on the Saturn for sure. Read this: http://forum.shmups.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6685

Just kidding about the fuckers bit.

pinball - I know we've discussed this shit before but I still don't get it. Aside from the charge shot you can play GB2 more or less exactly like 1. I mean, aren't you bored by the first four or so levels of GB1? Once you get a path where you can kill all the enemies + get all coins, there's nothing left to do. It doesn't get exciting until later on when the difficulty ramps up hugely. Whereas in GB2 (while I haven't given it any serious play yet, I have maybe 2 hours in the game, but I'm trying to make a point) I still can't perfectly coin-chain the first level. It's so replayable.

[llabnip]

pinball - I know we've discussed this shit before but I still don't get it. Aside from the charge shot you can play GB2 more or less exactly like 1. I mean, aren't you bored by the first four or so levels of GB1?

Not at all. Then again, I still play hours and hours of Atari 2600 Space Invaders and the first few screens there are almost memorization... so I'm not bored by repetitive gameplay so long as the game is fun. One of my favorite solitaire games is Clock - one of the most mindless and repetitive games in existence. There is something about the cadence and rythym of playing Clock... and some of the early Psikyo shooters have this same cadence - the feel, look, design and pace are both addictive and enjoyable in a simple but not simplistic way. I find Gunbird 2 to be less aesthetically pleasing combined with additions that I never want to use (yeah, I can ignore them, or I can play the original which distills the elements I enjoy more). For me, it's no contest. Gunbird hits the console quite often and I love every minute of play-time I give it. GB2, while still enjoyable, just doesn't elicit the same enjoyment for me.

[it290]

How about Prehistoric Isle 2? Sure, it's not a bad game, but it could have been so much more.

[FRO]

tetsujin oh is a step down from the first.

edit: a BIG step

I would have to disagree. I think it's an improvement in every way. It's more balanced (difficulty), has more weapon choices, better music, etc.

[cigsthecat]

Gunbird hits the console quite often and I love every minute of play-time I give it.

Especially being constantly powered down for no reason at all right? That's the best part. I just hate how the sequel improved on the first game in every imaginable way!

[BulletMagnet]

Thunderforce II is worse than Thunderforce?

I tend to think that few people here have played the first TF: wasn't it only released on some old computer system, in casette format or something?

[llabnip]

Gunbird hits the console quite often and I love every minute of play-time I give it.

Especially being constantly powered down for no reason at all right?

Psikyo games are not that hard to keep powered up. We're not talking Gradius here... and I find Gunbird to be fairly easy to remain at a max power level. If you die, the ranking will cause the game to ease up a bit as you get your power-ups back. I've never found this to be an issue (though maybe I misinterpreted your point).

I just hate how the sequel improved on the first game in every imaginable way!

Other than cadence, aesthetics and, most importantly, fun, I'd agree.

[DC906270]

i think gunbird 2 uses too many buttons

[cigsthecat]

i think gunbird 2 uses too many buttons

Three is just too many huh?

[DC906270]

it uses four, one for shot(auto), one for close range attack, one for bomb and another for shot/special attack when you hold it down

you could probably get away with using 3, but you would have to do a lot of button tapping. unless you did away with using the special attack.

[AWJ]

I nominate Kyukyoku Tiger... Tiger-Heli was so much better

[J-Manic]

It isn't a bad game at all, but I still enjoy Giga Wing over it's sequel.

[Rob]

so I'm not bored by repetitive gameplay so long as the game is fun.

I think "fun" officially has lost all meaning after this sentence. Game = repetitive like working an assembly line, game still miraculously "fun." OK, I get it has a nice atmosphere. I have games like that too, for instance Castle of Illusion on the Genesis. But I play this game, at most, once a year. I'm not sure if I even played it last year. Its "charm" would get run into the ground, since there's hardly anything propping it up (gameplay). There's only so many times I can see the backgrounds and get the same feeling when that's the purpose of playing.

bad sequels:

Thunder Force V

[chempop]

I think Gunbird2 improves every aspect of the original. I really don't know what you are thinking, maybe for sentimental reasons you like the original more.

I find is common that the original is usually the champion of the series. Not always but here are some examples

Layer Section - the only game in the series I enjoy at all, and it is in my top10, everything this game did right the sequels ruined. Sprites are what make these games tick, not ugly polygons.

Silpheed - here I just bashed polygons and I honestly do prefer the ugly sega version rather than the half hour chore that treasure crapped out of their ass. For some reason the sega cd could get away with it at the time, it was somethng different for the genre at least.

Alesta series - I'm talking about MUSHA and Robo Alesta, both great games though (some of my faves). I don't know anything about the earlier incarnations. Was there one for mastersystem or TG16, or was MUSHA the first?

[cigsthecat]

Other than cadence, aesthetics and, most importantly, fun, I'd agree.

I'm not trying to be rude, it's more that I really can't understand how someone can prefer the original Gunbird from a gameplay standpoint. What don't you like about the close attacks, for one?

Aesthetics, ok fine. It's subjective and the pure 2d graphics do have a certain something that the 3d GB2 sprites can't get at. Although I do think the enemy and boss designs are much better in the sequel.

Fun and "cadence" (how the game carries itself, I guess), are awfully vague descriptors it'd be silly to try and debate much. But I know that the fun I've had playing Gunbird is tarnished by-

The constant auto powerdowns (this has nothing to do with how hot shit you are at the game, it's just one of the worst ideas ever, period)

The useless charge shot that has no limit (but even worse, for all the time it takes to get it going you probably just might have well have kept shooting.)

The coins strewn around the levels that give so few points that you might as well not even bother. Early levels then become a chore because there's just nothing to improve after relatively few plays. Coin chaining was a massive improvement that can give you something to work at even early on in the game.

The boss /level design in Gunbird 2 (speaking from a gameplay standpoint now) is just so far beyond the first game that I don't think I should have to expound upon that.

If you said you preferred the graphics of the original and thought Gunbird 2 was too hard, I could at least understand these complaints. But you just seem to prefer a flawed, simple game when there's another that just blows it away in every department gathering dust.

[GaijinPunch]

Espgaluda maybe?!

No. It is not as the first one, but no way would it be classified as a "bad sequel". I like the better in most departments (music, character design, and defintiely voice actors) but II is still an awesomely fun game. It is what a sequel should be. The first one, spiced up.