Donpachi vs. Dodonpachi

[Neon]

I'm surprised by all the recent hate for Donpachi. It seems like everyone always brings it up as an example of how a sequel improved on the original.

IMO, Donpachi surpasses it in every way: Atmosphere, graphics, and more importantly gameplay. Much more thought required as per chaining etc. and it's less risky (they don't last the whole smegging level, if you fuck it up it's not as big of a deal). Better level design.

In fact I'd say Donpachi's only flaws are the difficulty curve (easy till level 4, then it gets balls hard) and the scummy quality of the Saturn conversion. Score attack mode, better yoko and more options don't make up for an assload of slowdown and loading. They couldn't have done anything about the sound but unless the transparencies took up too much horsepower it just seems like a lazy conversion.

What do you think?

[Turrican]

Dodonpachi man, all the way. Admittedly I didn't play the original as much, but It left me quite unimpressed. Call it the opinion of a casual gamer (well, at least compared to the manic fans around here), but the sequel does improve all the way. Especially in MUSIC department.

It's not like I enjoy the trend DDP started, but the first one does still sounds and looks like a Toaplan/Raiden clone. DDP at least makes sure you'll think it's a totally different ride since the beginning. True, just like I tend to appreciate early Psikyo in favor of the later one, I might even say that DP suits me better as far as gameplay go... But the sequel gets point to be something previously unseen.

So yeah, it's one of those sequels in the vein of Turrican II / Sonic 2 / Soul Calibur... The ones which really outperform the original in many ways... imho, that is. The classic "sequel on steroids". Everything in greater scale.

p.s. opinions based on PS1 and Mame experiences.

p.p.s. I can't comment on the technical side (I suck at chaining) but I'm interested in your comment on atmosphere... Seeing a different atmosphere between the two isn't like seeing it between Raiden and Raiden II? In other words, if there's a change, it's very subtle. Maybe DP is slightly more "realistic" with some warfare backgrounds toaplan-like... but just barely. The enemy mechadesign is the same for both titles, too.

[Frogacuda]

Donpachi just doesn't have the refinement or balance of its sequel. I don't understand how anyone could like it better.

[iatneH]

Less risky?

What I've heard is chaining in DP isn't worth the risk since the payoff isn't as big as in DDP, so chaining should be more risky since you have the option of doing it but it's better to just stay alive and blow crap up randomly instead of focusing on chaining.

Anyway, DDP for me all the way. I never said I hated DP, but I just think DDP is much more refined and polished.

[superhitachi4]

I love both games, and couldn't really bad mouth either honestly. I tend to play DDP a little more than DP, but as far as choosing one or the other...it really depends on the day. As far as the Saturn conversion of DDP goes (haven't played the DP conversion), it does have much to be desired in terms of quality.

[Rob]

In DP it seemed to take too much fire to destroy common enemies. DOJ is the clear winner of this.

[landshark]

Donpachi is god aweful boring until level 4 or 5 (mostly 5).

And the music ... ugh.

I like DoDonPachi much better (but hate it for the chaining aspect). Even better is DOJ like rob said

[professor ganson]

Glad to hear you like the game, Neon. Since I still have lots of play left in DDP and DOJ, I haven't bothered to pick of DP. I probably should before too long, though, as the price for the Saturn version is reasonably low.

[PsikyoPshumpPshooterP]

+1 Original Thread

[Neon]

Donpachi is god aweful boring until level 4 or 5 (mostly 5).

And the music ... ugh.

I like DoDonPachi much better (but hate it for the chaining aspect). Even better is DOJ like rob said

Well, of course if you don't chain it'll be boring till stage 4. That and finding bees are the deep parts of the game.

Can you chain stages 1-1 to 1-3 perfectly, and get every bee? Until you can, I'd say you should take that back

In DP it seemed to take too much fire to destroy common enemies. DOJ is the clear winner of this.

Hmm...too much fire?

While using standard shot, it's better to fire with C instead of A. This is true for the SS conversions of Donpachi, Dodonpachi, and Batsugun. It's a faster rate of autofire. That might help.

As far as the Saturn conversion of DDP goes (haven't played the DP conversion), it does have much to be desired in terms of quality.

I'd say the SS conversion of Dodon is better, actually. Lesser than the PSX one in terms of graphics and sounds, Saturn mode and score attack are plain useless, but damn if the PSX one doesn't run way faster than it should. Also, unless you engage PS2's psx quick load feature there are about 5 seconds between stages whereas SS loads each stage instantly.

In that respect the PSX ver. is better for DDP pros who can clear both loops and want more of a challenge. Otherwise, I recommend the cheaper and better SS version.

Less risky?

What I've heard is chaining in DP isn't worth the risk since the payoff isn't as big as in DDP, so chaining should be more risky since you have the option of doing it but it's better to just stay alive and blow crap up randomly instead of focusing on chaining.

Interesting opinion. It's definitely true that letting a lot of enemies onto the screen before firing obviously increases the bullet count, so you should know whether you can handle it, or failing that, have a bomb in stock . But as I mentioned I think the chaining and bees add a lot to the otherwise not too difficult first few stages.

Glad to hear you like the game, Neon. Since I still have lots of play left in DDP and DOJ, I haven't bothered to pick of DP. I probably should before too long, though, as the price for the Saturn version is reasonably low.

Definitely. I got the SS version for $15. PSX is worth the extra cost, though.

Nice that you're enjoying DDP and DOJ - these 3 combined could keep you busy for years, probably, depending how far you want to go with them.

p.p.s. I can't comment on the technical side (I suck at chaining) but I'm interested in your comment on atmosphere... Seeing a different atmosphere between the two isn't like seeing it between Raiden and Raiden II? In other words, if there's a change, it's very subtle. Maybe DP is slightly more "realistic" with some warfare backgrounds toaplan-like... but just barely. The enemy mechadesign is the same for both titles, too.

I probably misused the term. I'm thinking of the games' sense of humor: Donpachi's military music and over-enthusiastic announcer make the game take itself so seriously that it's funny. DDP seems a bit more blatant: The hilarious boss music, flowers growing, etc.

Regarding another of your comments, I do love Toaplan and Raiden, (Raiden DX and Batsugun are two of the best ever) and DP is much more in that vein, for sure.

Dodon's level 2 and boss music are indeed smegging awesome, though. Shame they didn't put more effort into the soundtrack - IIRC Stage 4 has stage 1's theme, 5 stage 2's, etc.

[zlk]

Both games are very fun. I prefer the music in DDP over Donpachi's. There are some things in Donpachi that people overlook when judging it.

1) The chaining is way more complex in Donpachi if you want to get a high score. In DDP you just chain the entire level from start to finish. In donpachi, every chain has to be thought out. Do I score more if I kill this last enemy in my current chain or do I wait and use this enemy to start a new chain? Sometimes you have to find creative ways to keep enemies on the screen to increase the chain value. A good score at the end of level 3 is 10,000,000. Trying to figure out what chains to do to score 10 million will be extremely hard.

2) Suicide bullets and rank make the game more interesting. In the second loop, every enemy releases suicide bullets when it is destroyed. This complicates chaining to no end. Go for too much, and you will die in a swarm of bullets. Go for too little and you won't score many points. The suicide bullets get more and more violent until you die. After this, the rank stays the same. The rank eventually gets so fierce and the suicide bullets become so difficult that no one has cleared 2-4 on their first man. Not NAI, LAOS, H.S, or any of the other great players.

3) The announcer in Donpachi sounds great. He reminds me of Paul Heyman of ECW fame. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if he were the announcer since he has fans in Japan.

[Rob]

While using standard shot, it's better to fire with C instead of A. This is true for the SS conversions of Donpachi, Dodonpachi, and Batsugun. It's a faster rate of autofire. That might help.

Complaint for PS DP.

[it290]

I like both of them about equally. Been playing more DDP recently, but I tend to enjoy DP more when I'm just in the mood for a less stressful shooter. It's kind of like Sonic vs. Sonic 2 - they both have their good points, people like to like the sequel better but the original is still a total classic.

[BulletMagnet]

I don't "hate" DP, but it retains several elements of "older" shmups which have always turned me off, most notably taking a long time to get back up to full power after dying, and being blind-sided by enemies flying in from the sides or back with zero warning. Of course, if you don't mind that sort of thing then that's fine, and I don't demand that everyone share my opinion, but for my part I see no reason to change it.

It's true that DDP's chaining has much more of an effect on score than it does in DP, but as it was in the former game, it really is pretty much optional unless you completely and utterly refuse to play for anything other than high scores, since you have plenty of other things to keep you busy, score-wise and not, even if you don't bother to chain, and you're still able to hit both score-based extends if you can survive long enough. As such, if you don't like the chaining, you're free to not bother with it.

I'm thinking of the games' sense of humor: Donpachi's military music and over-enthusiastic announcer make the game take itself so seriously that it's funny. DDP seems a bit more blatant: The hilarious boss music, flowers growing, etc.

I'd say this one depends on your personal sense of humor...DP, as you say, is more the type of game you laught "at," while DDP is fully aware of what it is, so to speak, and as such you can laugh along "with" it. The latter's cheesy music and "bah, whatever, just blow up everything!" sense of "justice" still earn a chuckle out of me from time to time...c'mon, how can you not love the beginning of stage 4? "Utterly and completely non-threatening cars and trucks traveling across a civilian highway? KILL THEM!!"

but damn if the PSX one doesn't run way faster than it should.

I don't know if you've seen any of the suggestions sprinkled around the forums which mention adjusting the "wait" option on the pause menu of the PS1 version...I'm not familiar enough with the arcade version to know if turning on the option exactly replicates the original's speed, but if it's not exact then it's very close.

In short, even though DP was Cave's first game and set the stage for its sequel, I consider DDP a far, far more important landmark than DP was, and the manic shmup by which all others to this day should be judged. Again, if you prefer "old-school" stuff more than I do, that's fine with me, but I consider DDP to have kept everything that was good about DP, and removed nearly any possible impediments to accessibility and enjoyment that it might've had.

[Shalashaska]

I'm in the 'do not dislike DP, just like DDP better' crowd.

DonPachi was the first Cave game I ever played so it will always be a favorite of mine, but the first 2 levels put me to sleep. After that though the game picks up and I enjoy it about as much as any level in DDP.

[landshark]

Donpachi is god aweful boring until level 4 or 5 (mostly 5).

And the music ... ugh.

I like DoDonPachi much better (but hate it for the chaining aspect). Even better is DOJ like rob said

Well, of course if you don't chain it'll be boring till stage 4. That and finding bees are the deep parts of the game.

I don't think there is such a thing as a perfect chain through a level of Donpachi.

[Neon]

While using standard shot, it's better to fire with C instead of A. This is true for the SS conversions of Donpachi, Dodonpachi, and Batsugun. It's a faster rate of autofire. That might help.

Complaint for PS DP.

Sadly I don't have the PS port here with me but there should be a button controlling 'autofire' (check options menu) with similar results.

If PSX doesn't have this, the SS conversion is better for sure...I'll have to check once I bring my PS2 here.

taking a long time to get back up to full power after dying,

I agree here - this does suck. You should add 'Gradius Syndrome' to the glossary if you haven't ^_~

being blind-sided by enemies flying in from the sides or back with zero warning.

Cheap, quarter munching bit of game design, though once it happens to you it shouldn't happen again. These should be memorized along with bee locations, for sure.

I don't demand that everyone share my opinion

Same here, in this thread and elsewhere.

I'd say this one depends on your personal sense of humor...DP, as you say, is more the type of game you laught "at," while DDP is fully aware of what it is, so to speak, and as such you can laugh along "with" it.

Oh no, I'm sure Cave were fully aware of just how goofy-assed Donpachi is. I mean, they had to be...BOM-BER!!!!111

The latter's cheesy music and "bah, whatever, just blow up everything!" sense of "justice" still earn a chuckle out of me from time to time...c'mon, how can you not love the beginning of stage 4? "Utterly and completely non-threatening cars and trucks traveling across a civilian highway? KILL THEM!!"

Hee hee, well, when you put it that way...

I don't know if you've seen any of the suggestions sprinkled around the forums which mention adjusting the "wait" option on the pause menu of the PS1 version...I'm not familiar enough with the arcade version to know if turning on the option exactly replicates the original's speed, but if it's not exact then it's very close.

Well, wait option adjusts slowdown. Wait on will make the PS slow down in the same spots as the arcade - I'm talking about overall game speed. I believe it's been discussed in past threads: SS and PCB are about equal, PS is fast, and MAME is slow.

[MadSteelDarkness]

Alright, whoever you are, what have you done with Neon, the guy who almost a year ago referred to Donpachi as as "pretty much poo"...

Heh. Just kidding, man. Glad to see you've come around to appreciating the brilliance that is Donpachi.

Since I love both games, I can't bring myself to vote. But there is something special about Donpachi that really bridges the gap between old school and new school vert shmups.

[J-Manic]

DoDonpachi.

I loved Donpachi to death when I first got it. It was very impressive and all, but the sequel just blew me away. Graphics-wise I think they're both kinda equal. They both look fantastic. But DDP is way more fun to play IMO.

[Herr Schatten]

Neon, I know we don't agree too often, but this time I'm totally on your side. I also like DP better than its sequel, mostly for the reasons you brought up. But then it might be that it appeals to the oldschool shooter fan in me just that little bit more than its successor.

[chtimi-CLA]

voted donpachi, i never liked DDP that much. I remember being disappointed they ditched the announcer, and the musics weren't of the same 80's chiptune kind and were used on 2 levels each. gameplay wise, it's harder to explain but DDP never stuck with me.
i would put DOJ above both.

[elvis]

I'm surprised by all the recent hate for Donpachi. It seems like everyone always brings it up as an example of how a sequel improved on the original.

I'm definitely guilty of saying exactly the above, but I should point out that I in no way "hate" DonPachi. It's a marvellous game in it's own right, and heaps of fun. I just feel that DoDonPachi took everything good about DonPachi and improved on it. It went from a being a great game to being a bloody fantastic game.

I feel both are worth 'wasting' my time on. I just know that the sequel is more fun for me personally. And that's about it really... personal preference. "Each to their own bad taste" as my grandma always says.

[AWJ]

voted donpachi, i never liked DDP that much. I remember being disappointed they ditched the announcer, and the musics weren't of the same 80's chiptune kind and were used on 2 levels each.

DP's music isn't chiptunes...

I keep bouncing back and forth between these two games. I was totally into DP before Christmas, but I got so frustrated trying to improve my chains that I stopped playing it and went on a pure oldschool kick (1943, Flying Shark and Twin Cobra) for a while. Now I'm playing DDP again after a long hiatus and I'm loving it.

[Marc]

Originally DP, but the more I've played of DDP this last year, the more I'm coming round to it. I used to think DP was the perfect bridge between old and new school, but it did fuck me off that the difficulty spiked so nastily around level 4. DDP starts harder but the increase is more gradual. I love both, but DDP edges it for me. I find the chaining utterly compulsive, the thought put into level design and enemy placement just floors me when I think about it. and unlike similar games I have a ridiculous amount of fun even when I'm sucking at DDP. DP frustrates me for some reason I can't quite figure.

[CMoon]

Alright, whoever you are, what have you done with Neon, the guy who almost a year ago referred to Donpachi as as "pretty much poo"...

Heh. Just kidding, man. Glad to see you've come around to appreciating the brilliance that is Donpachi.

Since I love both games, I can't bring myself to vote. But there is something special about Donpachi that really bridges the gap between old school and new school vert shmups.

EXACTLY! This is the whole new Neon!

Anyway, yes, something very special about Donpachi, especially how it almost isn't really a Cave game, and it is the ONLY Cave game where the connection to its toaplan roots (plus heavy Raiden influence) are enormously apparent. Perhaps the beauty of it for me is I love the whole 'one foot in the past, one foot in the future' thing DP has going on. Late 80's and early 90's video games always made me the happiest anyway.

[sven666]

I love both games, and couldn't really bad mouth either honestly. I tend to play DDP a little more than DP, but as far as choosing one or the other...it really depends on the day. As far as the Saturn conversion of DDP goes (haven't played the DP conversion), it does have much to be desired in terms of quality.

here here.. i couldnt agree more.

[chtimi-CLA]

DP's music isn't chiptunes...

well you get the idea, dp sounds charmingly like an 80's shooter

[D]

Indeed, hate against DP is very strange.
I'm not saying that DP is better DDP.
Should it be?
To me DDP is like a whored out version of DP. Technically speaking it has more of everything.
But DP is a little less frantic, a little more subtle
Musically I can say that it's DP hands down.
When I first heard DDP I was like what is this eurorock bs?
I thought Europe (yeah that scandalous scandinavian band) covered DP or something.

*Starting new thread about sequels*

[Gopher's Ambition]

Oh, DDP 2 for sure!

Ok, seriously... I love both games a lot, but DP frustrates me way more when I'm playing for score. Not because chaining is difficult, but because of the seemingly oversized hitbox. I try to pilot the way I do in DDP in DP, and it just doesn't work.

Type B works awesome in DP though.

[llabnip]

Neon, I know we don't agree too often, but this time I'm totally on your side. I also like DP better than its sequel, mostly for the reasons you brought up. But then it might be that it appeals to the oldschool shooter fan in me just that little bit more than its successor.

Same here... Neon and I don't normally see eye-to-eye, but I also prefer DonPachi to the sequel. It's defintely Batsugun II (or maybe Batsugun is DonPachi Zero). It sits right at the fine edge between modern shooter and manic - a near perfect blend of the two. I'm a fan of older and modern shooters and less so of manics so later cave titles have always been somewhat less interesting to me. But I think DDP is generally heralded as the better of the two - and that's a valid position as well especially if you dig a bit more madness in your shooters. I like to think of DonPachi as a more civilized DoDonPachi and DoDonPachi is a more frantic caffeine-driven over-the-top DonPachi. I prefer the former but understand why some enjoy the latter.

Of the two DonPachi ports I own (SS+PSX), I much prefer the buttery-smooth PSX port which was crafted by SPS with loving care.