FinalBaton wrote:Josh, would you mind sharing your settings for the Sony Wega? Looks like you've got it well calibrated.
Sorry I hadnt responded, but the Wegas settings are in bars, not numbers, so its not easy to post them without photos. All I did was run the Disney WOW DVD on it and tweak by eye from there with games.
*Well I'm gonna bump this to the new page since I want at least a couple of people to see my review lol
Those who played on this set, feel free to comment on my review about wether or not it mirrors your experience with the set*
So I thought I would write a short thing about my impressions on this set's handling of 240p games, since I own it and played with it a bit. My set up is : RGB from 240p consoles, into a CSY-2100 clone, into the TV's component input.
I'm probably not going to reveal anything new about the set here. Fudoh and others have already given a detailed and valuable outlook on it. But I'm gonna do this for fun anyway.
Also, I don't have the tools to analyse input lag and color rendering, so take what I'll say about those as opinion and not as fact.
A short introduction about why I bought this set :
I bought it prior to reading about it here. It is in the living room and I watch hockey and movies and cable on it (my Sony CRT is in my "office" room). I have a soft spot for the look of plasma's image, and as an avid hockey fan, I love the fast handling of motion on these displays. Didn't know a thing about how it handles 15 khz and 31 khz signals.
So, I was real happy to realize that 240p is recognized as such. And I think it looks quite good.
It's pretty neat that you can get a good image without any upscaler, just by plugging straight into the TV.
As others have said, sharp pixel lovers need not apply. This is a soft image but it's quite pleasing as far as 240p content without scanlines go.
Background doesn't blur when moving, it stays exactly the same. Another thing that's appreciated .
This is not something that those cheap SCART to HDMI scalers can pull off.
Color rendering is very good I think. Everything looks as it should, only thing I spotted is a sliiiiiight greenish tint in those very light colors that are close to pure white. but changing the setting in "Espace Couleur" from Native to Auto got rid of most of it. Maybe the tint was induced by my csy-2100 clone thought?
As for input lag, here's how it affects my ability to play at my max potential on the following games (in ascending order of twitchiness) :
-Castlevania plays fine
-Megaman : it impedes my play a little bit, but still manageable I guess
-Ninja Gaiden : impossible for me to do a great playthrough of this game with this set (and I can clear the game in 1 continue on my CRT).
I believe others have tested the lag with Artemio's 240p suite and it clocked at 37ms or so? If I remember right.
Overall it's manageable, for the most part.
It's a shame that this TV won't handle emulated scanlines, because if it did I would use it quite a bit and would invest in an XRGB-3 to use with it. but alas is does not (1024 x 768 panel so I assume it doesn't). I personnaly need scanlines on 240p games.
My PN43f4500's usage for gaming is gonna be as a secondary display, for playing when I have people over. The rest of the time I'll be playing on my CRT.
But I'm still happy to have picked it up. It has some stuff going for it.
I might hunt down a used Panasonic 1080p plasma at some point (some models have a reported 16ms of input lag, that's interesting if true). This will allow me to put scanlines on top of the image and reduce input lag a bit over the f4500.
This Samsung is still a very satisfying AND economical solution for a retro gaming flat panel if you :
-don't need scanlines
-aren't sensible to some mild input lag
-want to spend south of $100 in converters/upscalers (you just need a csy-2100 clone, this should get you at $80 or so) and still want a nice picture. (I need to reiterate that the csy-2100 used with this TV is largely superior than using a cheap SCART to HDMI scaler, so go the csy-2100 route).
Custom is the best colorspace, even at default. My F4900 has Scart and Component, I've recently been enjoying my softmodded Xbox in 480p (although the component cable I have is crap and the hd av pack is hard to find in the UK, although maybe I could make my own from the remains of an equally crap ebay scart cable).
I had the Xbox from new in 2003 but it had never been interesting to me because I had a PS2, its actually really impressive, Dead or Alive 2 Ultimate looks almost like an early PS3 game. Outrun 2006 looks better than the PS2 version but I'm not too keen on using the triggers rather than buttons it seems to play faster maybe it has a higher frame rate?. Halo looked impressive.
I also made a vga to scart cable and plugged it into the back of my vga modded Dreamcast, and then into my (genuine) CSY-2100 and it worked, but was horizontally squeezed (circles looked egg shaped).
I've never been affected by the lag, completed Rayman Origins which is heavily dependent on timing. The 240p test suite (Dreamcast version). manual lag test I got 1 frame on the first attempt. So the lag can certainly be adapted to.
22point8 wrote:Custom is the best colorspace, even at default. My F4900 has Scart and Component, I've recently been enjoying my softmodded Xbox in 480p (although the component cable I have is crap and the hd av pack is hard to find in the UK, although maybe I could make my own from the remains of an equally crap ebay scart cable).
I had the Xbox from new in 2003 but it had never been interesting to me because I had a PS2, its actually really impressive, Dead or Alive 2 Ultimate looks almost like an early PS3 game. Outrun 2006 looks better than the PS2 version but I'm not too keen on using the triggers rather than buttons it seems to play faster maybe it has a higher frame rate?. Halo looked impressive.
I also made a vga to scart cable and plugged it into the back of my vga modded Dreamcast, and then into my (genuine) CSY-2100 and it worked, but was horizontally squeezed (circles looked egg shaped).
I've never been affected by the lag, completed Rayman Origins which is heavily dependent on timing. The 240p test suite (Dreamcast version). manual lag test I got 1 frame on the first attempt. So the lag can certainly be adapted to.
Yep the lag is manageable. Not too much of it. Only in Ninja Gaiden did my play actually dropped a bit. (and in that game that's enough to give you a hard time).
But you can definitly feel that it's there, even if it's small.
You know when you play on an hd tv and think that there's no lag, and then you go back to your CRT and now you get the feeling that the character moves slightly before you push the buttons? That's my experience with going from the f4500 to a crt.
The lag with a CSY on the 4500 is very decent, on its own its as good or better than some of the fastest sets when they are coupled with an XRGB, etc.
I feel the lag when used in this fashion is quite a bit better than using almost any PC emulator, even on a CRT monitor, so take that as you may.
The IQ of this set is phenomenal, that hasnt changed-- and remember its not the that the set is not capable of producing scanlines on 240p content, its that current scalers and most emulators dont have the proper settings to do it. The Kega Fusion emulator can do it just fine on the F4500.
I have yet to personally see any LCD set match the IQ of this "cheap" plasma. OTA HD video and Blu-Ray simply look far more natural and superior, IMO, on this set than any LCD Ive spent any time watching at friends and familys places. Almost two years in, I still have "wow" moments with this set.
Turns out the greenish tint I had was caused by my csy-2100 clone.
I was able to determine this by comparing the two images of the same game on the ps2, firstly through the csy-2100 clone, then through the ps2's component cable. Image through the component cables looked great so I knew the csy was the problem. I've now adjusted it by tweaking the pots inside and it the colors look great now.
This set is a pretty interesting option for retro gaming on a flat panel, I must say. Scales 240p pretty damn well.
This set is a pretty interesting option for retro gaming on a flat panel, I must say. Scales 240p pretty damn well.
I agree, I also like the look of 240p on it. I prefer the slight interpolation of its 240p mode to the ultra sharp 240p of many 1080p sets. The slight interpolation looks more authentic to me, but thats just my personal preference.
N64 games are actually tolerable on this set precisely because of its 240p handling.
This set is a pretty interesting option for retro gaming on a flat panel, I must say. Scales 240p pretty damn well.
I agree, I also like the look of 240p on it. I prefer the slight interpolation of its 240p mode to the ultra sharp 240p of many 1080p sets. The slight interpolation looks more authentic to me, but thats just my personal preference.
N64 games are actually tolerable on this set precisely because of its 240p handling.
I might get an XRGB-3 sometime to bump the signal to 480p (in B1 mode for no additional lag), but it would not be a HUGE difference as the tv gives a good image when fed 240p RGB.
Taken with my shitty phone camera
wanted to provide some pics of original hardware (15 kHz)upscaled from an XRGB machine and displayed on the Samsung.
This will also give people an idea of how bad (or how not so bad, depending on how sensitive you are to that)are the uneven scanlines
bobrocks95 wrote:It's hard to tell through the glow of the plasma, but I've seen worse uneven scanlines- they don't look as bad as I would expect.
Yeah, my phone camera picked up way too much reflection. It looks infinitely better in person, believe me. A lot less soft than what the pic shows, and more vivid. The glow is actually pleasing sitting in front of it.
And I agree, the unevenness is not too bad. To me it's fine, I can put up with it.
And I agree, the unevenness is not too bad. To me it's fine, I can put up with it.
have you tried creating a 3x profile like FBX's profiles ? 720p on a 768p output.
we can create profiles on the XRGB-3? (that's the one I have)
I thought profiles were only for the mini.
So even though you cant make a saveable profile like the mini, cant you just do this with the main configuration? 720 used lines out of 768, 2 lines for game pixels, 1 line for scanlines. It'll leave about 3/4" black bars at the top and bottom (on my set with Kega Fusion).
I asked Fudoh if he could try to do this many months ago, being he has the set and a mini-- since he never got around to it, I assumed it wasnt possible. I dont have a mini or an XRGB-3, so I have no way to try it. So far, nobody has proved its possible. I'd love to see someone attempt it.
Hows the lag using the mini compared to straight component / 2100 clone?
Josh128 wrote:
I asked Fudoh if he could try to do this many months ago, being he has the set and a mini-- since he never got around to it, I assumed it wasnt possible. I dont have a mini or an XRGB-3, so I have no way to try it. So far, nobody has proved its possible. I'd love to see someone attempt it.
Maybe he just doesn't have time to put towards this project, and we have to respect his choice. Besides, I'm sure he is extremely busy with tons of projects that are already under way.
Last edited by FinalBaton on Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Anybody know if this "F4550" set is the same as the 4500 being discussed here? It's steep and I'd probably sooner get one used but it's nice to have options.
Josh128 wrote:
Input lag on my F4500 is 32 to 48 ms compared to a CRT when using the component video feed and splitting the Y (Green) to feed the composite on the CRT to assure an accurate comparison. The way I compared is by taking photos of the in game timer running on FZero on both sets. Ive been gaming on CRTs for 30 years and the lag is absolutely unnoticable to me. There are very few sets, including LCD, that have much better input lag than that. Lag doesnt truly become noticable until you get above 48ms or view a zero lag display side by side. Certainly the difference between 16ms and 32ms is not worth mentioning.
Sorry, but I 100% disagree with that. My 6 year old Samsung 40 inch has about 25ms of input lag and it's very noticeable. I'm actually a big F-Zero GX fan and one of the only active players left, and I can't play it at all on an LCD. 25ms of lag makes old games like fzero and metroid unplayable for me, especially when you need lightning fast reflexes. I can't play those games on anything other than a CRT
AndehX wrote:Sorry, but I 100% disagree with that. My 6 year old Samsung 40 inch has about 25ms of input lag and it's very noticeable. I'm actually a big F-Zero GX fan and one of the only active players left, and I can't play it at all on an LCD. 25ms of lag makes old games like fzero and metroid unplayable for me, especially when you need lightning fast reflexes. I can't play those games on anything other than a CRT
Well, plasmas feel different than LCDs and everyone kind of has a different sensitivity to input lag, so Josh not noticing it isn't too far-fetched
I never claimed there is no lag, or that I cant perceive it if I really try. I did say the amount of lag this set has is pretty much unnoticable (for me) unless you compare it side by side with a CRT. I havent played a game yet on it where I experience any sort of gameplay problem due to this level of lag.
With progressive sources this set has between 30-40ms of lag, according to my photo tests and bodnar tests others have posted here. Ive played through many twitch games to completion without any issues, such as Genesis GNG, SNES Super GNG, Mega Man 1,2,3,4 Ninja Gaiden, FZero X, so on and so forth. Someone here claimed that he could not complete Ninja Gaiden on 1 life as he could on a CRT and I can believe that, but I also believe that is only because the amount of time one has to spend getting good enough to do that would condition you to the response on the particular set you trained on. That is to say, I firmly believe if the guy spent a few hours adjusting to the set he could easily adapt and eventually do it.
You claim you cant even play Metroid on a set with 25ms of lag? I find that very strange, as most people wouldnt even consider that a series that requires fast twitch response to begin with. If 25ms over CRT lag causes a game to be "unplayable" for you I find that very strange indeed.
LastSilmaril wrote:Anybody know if this "F4550" set is the same as the 4500 being discussed here? It's steep and I'd probably sooner get one used but it's nice to have options.
Josh128 wrote:
You claim you cant even play Metroid on a set with 25ms of lag? I find that very strange, as most people wouldnt even consider that a series that requires fast twitch response to begin with. If 25ms over CRT lag causes a game to be "unplayable" for you I find that very strange indeed.
Well obviously I CAN play it, but to me, it feels very uncomfortable and unnatural, and really puts me off doing so. I don't see the point in playing it on an LCD/Plasma when I can play it on a CRT...
LastSilmaril wrote:Anybody know if this "F4550" set is the same as the 4500 being discussed here? It's steep and I'd probably sooner get one used but it's nice to have options.
So...nobody knows?
Its the same as the F4500, except the set is gray instead of black.
Just want to add my two cents. I don't currently have a retro set up (just own a Wii U and PS4) but I do own both the 51 and 43" models of this set. I don't know if this is mentioned but there is firmware for these sets that noticeably affected picture quality notably black levels. I don't fully recall as it's been a year or two when I did all that research and applied the firmware (1027.2) but I believe not only did it lower black levels but also helped with black crush. All I know is these TVs rival my way more expensive with superior tech Panasonic ST60
As far as picture settings, you NEVER want to have sharpness above zero. All that will do is ad artificial artifacts. The only time I've read where you need to have sharpness at even 1 is because (I think it was Panasonic) the tv had an error where sharpness at zero was actually purposely softening the image and by putting it to 1 it took that faulty effect off. I believe that was subsequently fixed in a firmware though.
Anyway, I bought two of these televisions because they are probably the very best 720p sets you can find as far as picture quality especially black levels post firmware. Seeing this thread makes me want to go get a Wii and some component cables and maybe even a SNES (though that seems like a lot of work and research i.e. cables, finding one in decent shape, SCART, etc) especially as seeing SNES in RGB appears to make a world of difference and let's us truly see how great many of these games were made.
