Any Cave console ports that dont have unlimited continues?

[Blinge]

Why is this thread.

1cc or you didn't beat the game.

[Squire Grooktook]

^^^ Sorry but I missed this and don't want to look like I'm dodging something to him

Having 1 or 2 continues is fine, having unlimited continues isnt (at least for me), this isnt the arcades, in the arcades you can have as much continue as long as you have the money to pay for it, so in the end you will run out of continues, but it isnt the case on consoles. I want something like Philosoma, Einhander, Gradius V, Radiant Silvergun, Ikaruga either fixed limited continues or the more you play the more you unlock continues.

But you didn't beat the game if you continue.

The score counter represents completion/mastery, and it always gets reset on continue.

If you reach the ending with 50% of the score from continuing midway through, the game has only recognized a 50% completion rate.

1cc or you didn't beat the game.

In the post I made that you quoted I mentioned 5 different games, which game are you talking about here?

I mean every arcade game ever. 99.9999% of them reduce your score to zero when you continue. Ergo my argument applies to almost all shmups, including the ones with unlimited continues.

[Skykid]

All of them I assume, and arcade-style games in general?

To me continues are akin to using cheat codes, they're fine for practicing or dicking around, but you haven't truly beaten the game if you're using them and no game should be designed around the assumption that they're to be used.

These games are all ports of the arcades, these games are designed and devloped with the arcades buisness model first and foremost, if everyone just put a coin and stopped after that because of x reasons, they wouldnt make any money. They are made to be used with continues this is how the arcade buisness makes its revenue, the limitation comes with the amount of coins you put in and the problem is that this cant be applied when ported to consoles, this why I prefer STGs that were developed for the consoles and not arcades, because they get the continues right.

Jesus. Don't take this the wrong way, but I have no idea how you have nearly 1000 posts and have been registered since 06, yet have absolutely no idea how this whole playing games thing is supposed to work.

[DestroyTheCore]

All of them I assume, and arcade-style games in general?

To me continues are akin to using cheat codes, they're fine for practicing or dicking around, but you haven't truly beaten the game if you're using them and no game should be designed around the assumption that they're to be used.

These games are all ports of the arcades, these games are designed and devloped with the arcades buisness model first and foremost, if everyone just put a coin and stopped after that because of x reasons, they wouldnt make any money. They are made to be used with continues this is how the arcade buisness makes its revenue, the limitation comes with the amount of coins you put in and the problem is that this cant be applied when ported to consoles, this why I prefer STGs that were developed for the consoles and not arcades, because they get the continues right.

Jesus. Don't take this the wrong way, but I have no idea how you have nearly 1000 posts and have been registered since 06, yet have absolutely no idea how this whole playing games thing is supposed to work.

Even though I agree with you, Skykid, there should not be one absolute way to enjoy shmups. People can play however they want without the consent of experienced players. Even with continues, beginners will eventually -or hopefully- master these parts of the game while relying less and less often on continues. It's not like beginners feel satisfied in dying to use a continue afterwards.

[Skykid]

Even though I agree with you, Skykid, there should not be one absolute way to enjoy shmups. People can play however they want without the consent of experienced players. Even with continues, beginners will eventually -or hopefully- master these parts of the game while relying less and less often on continues. It's not like beginners feel satisfied in dying to use a continue afterwards.

Hey, I've ways advocated playing to your own personal levels of satisfaction, especially when the big boys complain there aren't enough dedicated superheroes around - but Lawer's entire understanding of how to approach arcade games is backwards.

The "arcade business model" doesn't dictate unfair or impossible games that require multiple continues. Yes, there are genres with exceptions and exceptions even within the shmups genre - but we often consider those to be poorly made games and pay them no mind. The fact remains: these games are designed first around the 1cc/score potential, and not around the coin trap.

"They are made to be used with continues"

No.

"The limitation comes with the amount of coins you put in and the problem is that this can't be applied when ported to consoles"

No.

"This is why I prefer STGs that were developed for consoles and not arcades because they get the continues right."

I don't even understand this.

Basically, beginners (and pros) can utilise continues however they want to make practice progress. Non-serious players can give up early as long as they had fun. There's no gun to your head saying you must achieve a clear.

But the objective and understanding should be that score is where the game is and a 1cc is always the basis of progression.

Beginner or not, there are no continues in a concerted attempt, and that applies to all arcade games.

[endoKarb]

Hey, I've ways advocated playing to your own personal levels of satisfaction, especially when the big boys complain there aren't enough dedicated superheroes around

As if the two things had anything to do with one another.

[Skykid]

Hey, I've ways advocated playing to your own personal levels of satisfaction, especially when the big boys complain there aren't enough dedicated superheroes around

As if the two things had anything to do with one another.

They're completely related. That's why I put them in the same sentence.

[endoKarb]

Hey, I've ways advocated playing to your own personal levels of satisfaction, especially when the big boys complain there aren't enough dedicated superheroes around

As if the two things had anything to do with one another.

They're completely related. That's why I put them in the same sentence.

They aren't. That's why I commented.

[ptoing]

endoKarb vs Skykid! FIGHT TO THE DEATH! GO!!!

That said: My guess is what Skykid means is that telling people to play a certain way might alienate them more than anything, so they are more likely to go away and never get into it and become superplayers. Encouraging people to play how they like and get into their own flow is the best way to get them interested. Someone who really likes the genre and will get into it slowly will get into it more over time and play more seriously.

That is just a guess though.

[Skykid]

endoKarb vs Skykid! FIGHT TO THE DEATH! GO!!!

That said: My guess is what Skykid means is that telling people to play a certain way might alienate them more than anything, so they are more likely to go away and never get into it and become superplayers. Encouraging people to play how they like and get into their own flow is the best way to get them interested. Someone who really likes the genre and will get into it slowly will get into it more over time and play more seriously.

That is just a guess though.

Not exactly rocket science is it.

[ptoing]

Yeah, not really. No one wants to be told they are playing something wrong, esp when they just start out and are having some innocent fun with it. If they dig stuff enough, they will look deeper. No need to shove it into peoples faces.

[endoKarb]

endoKarb vs Skykid! FIGHT TO THE DEATH! GO!!!

That said: My guess is what Skykid means is that telling people to play a certain way might alienate them more than anything, so they are more likely to go away and never get into it and become superplayers. Encouraging people to play how they like and get into their own flow is the best way to get them interested. Someone who really likes the genre and will get into it slowly will get into it more over time and play more seriously.

That is just a guess though.

Not exactly rocket science is it.

It also not what you said. And for the record, I don't agree with that either.

[ptoing]

Of course this is not a black and white issue. There will be people that get serious about it pretty fast, and there are people that might not get serious about stuff unless they get exposed to communities like this. I am not a super serious player, but I would have not tried to get as serious as I am if it was not for this forum. And I reckon there are better players where the same thing applies.

[Skykid]

endoKarb vs Skykid! FIGHT TO THE DEATH! GO!!!

That said: My guess is what Skykid means is that telling people to play a certain way might alienate them more than anything, so they are more likely to go away and never get into it and become superplayers. Encouraging people to play how they like and get into their own flow is the best way to get them interested. Someone who really likes the genre and will get into it slowly will get into it more over time and play more seriously.

That is just a guess though.

Not exactly rocket science is it.

It also not what you said. And for the record, I don't agree with that either.

At this stage I get the feeling you're just making arbitrary stabs in the dark to try to gloss over your snap and ill-considered comment to try and avoid sounding like an idiot.

Newsflash: it ain't working.

[OmKol]

I mean every arcade game ever. 99.9999% of them reduce your score to zero when you continue. Ergo my argument applies to almost all shmups, including the ones with unlimited continues.

Many of Irem arcade games don't reduce score.

Okay, continuing in Cave games is cheating. But what about shumps with checkpoint system? Some games with checkpoints is hard even with unlimited continues.

[Squire Grooktook]

^^^I only remember Metal Slug doing that (not Irem but related), and even then, it includes some sort of continue counter or penalty in the end game score tally IIRC

Checkpoint shmups are probably bigger achievements to clear while continuing, but I'd still say that posting a run with continues as a "clear" is disingenuous.

[ptoing]

R-Type Leo keeps score after continue without adding a counter thing I think.
Beestorm as well.

[endoKarb]

At this stage I get the feeling you're just making arbitrary stabs in the dark to try to gloss over your snap and ill-considered comment to try and avoid sounding like an idiot.

Newsflash: it ain't working.

Then, what does the fact that you keep refusing to explain your point better says? And no, what ptoing said has nothing to do with the bit of sentence I quoted in the first post.

Feel free to answer with more insults.

[Skykid]

At this stage I get the feeling you're just making arbitrary stabs in the dark to try to gloss over your snap and ill-considered comment to try and avoid sounding like an idiot.

Newsflash: it ain't working.

Then, what does the fact that you keep refusing to explain your point better says? And no, what ptoing said has nothing to do with the bit of sentence I quoted in the first post.

Feel free to answer with more insults.

I find it pretty insulting I have to waste time explaining such an obvious post! Did you read the paragraph I was directly replying to made by DestroyTheCore?

Pretty damn self explanatory.

[endoKarb]

I find it pretty insulting I have to waste time explaining such an obvious post! Did you read the paragraph I was directly replying to made by DestroyTheCore?

Pretty damn self explanatory.

You find it insulting? I'm not sure anyone on the internet has the right to be that thin skinned.
And really, not a great argument to use with the person you just called an idiot.

I still don't understand what telling "people should play to their own personal level of satisfaction" to the dedicated score-players of the forum has anything to do with the discussion in this thread.
But more importantly, how does it even make sense at all, when those people are the first one that play "to their own personal level of satisfaction" already.

Dedicated scores have all the right to complain about the constantly shrinking scoring scene, and you're comment barely has any relevance to the that discussion, or to this thread.

Maybe I am missing something, 'cause I'm an idiot an all, but I'm also discussing in a civil manner, something you should maybe put some more effort into.

[BIL]

I knew this topic would eventually deliver. IT ALWAYS DOES

Gentlemen, show us a brawl that is like hell.

Spoiler

[Blinge]

Gentlemen, show us a brawl that is like hell.

The horror.

Spoiler

[Skykid]

Sorry boys, but I'm not wasting my time. There's nothing difficult to decipher about what I wrote.

But for the record:

And really, not a great argument to use with the person you just called an idiot.

I didn't call you an idiot, I said you were firing out arbitrary statements to avoid sounding like one.

[endoKarb]

Sorry boys, but I'm not wasting my time. There's nothing difficult to decipher about what I wrote.

But for the record:

And really, not a great argument to use with the person you just called an idiot.

I didn't call you an idiot, I said you were firing out arbitrary statements to avoid sounding like one.

The first is a straw man argument, the second is just nitpicking.

Unlike what these comments about "brawls" and "fight" seems to imply, I don't have any hostile intention, and really just wanted to discuss that specific point I quoted on which I don't not agree.

Maybe I didn't display the right attitude, but that doesn't justify in any way that personal attack. And yes telling a person that he is "trying not to sound like an idiot, an failing" is offensive, no matter how you try to sugarcoat it.

And I think you owe me an apology for that.

[Cata]

The score counter represents completion/mastery, and it always gets reset on continue.

If you reach the ending with 50% of the score from continuing midway through, the game has only recognized a 50% completion rate.

1cc or you didn't beat the game.

I think my problem with this is that, sure, you didn't do so hot on your run and used a continue or so but I have never seen a game that literally states that you have failed to "beat" the game. Your score is usually just reset while everything else in the game just keeps on going. Other than that nothing screams at you "Yo, you didn't actually beat this thing. Good job scrub. Go for the 1cc". In fact, I'd almost argue that the concept of the 1cc is so obfuscated that most people will never even know what the concept is, much less that they should try and attain it and that if they don't they are losing out on what makes these games fun. For people who never grew up in arcades its pretty easy to see how they would miss this considering how arcade-like score systems have been tossed aside in more contemporary gaming. The only numbers gamers care about anymore is kill-death ratio in FPSs. I can't really blame this kind of mentality, though, since gamers from different eras are psychologically conditioned by the gaming concepts they've had in their western games for years. It seems like the common criticism of a credit-feeder is very reminiscent of someone from another culture being made fun of because they are unaware of certain customs of a place they visit.

Its interesting because for me this then gets into the territory of what actually "beating" a game means. Is it going for 100% completion/trophies/achievements? Is it just getting to the end and seeing everything through but not going for all the extra stuff? The more I think about shmups on a theoretical level the more I am of the mind that, yes, even credit-feeding is technically considered "beating" the game since you are in fact getting to the end of it. Is that person who credit-fed the game totally missing the point of these games? Absolutely. Should that person be looked down upon just because "they don't get it"? In my opinion, no, as per the reasons I listed in the previous paragraph. I DO think we should engage these people whenever possible and explain to them the concepts and environments these games were based upon to try and convey to them how they are letting preconceived notions of these games blind them to what different types gameplay is out there.

I think my answer to the problem of the 1cc debate would be to limit the number of continues while gradually raising the number over time. I've had many people disagree with me on this but I truly think its the best way out of this conundrum that I can think of. For instance, my friend just downloaded the PS4 version of Metal Slug 3 and save-stated his way throughout the entire game, using unlimited continues since the game gives you that option. Had it not had this feature he would have actually had to try and beat the game the way the games original environment would have forced upon him back in the day

[pegboy]

Should that person be looked down upon just because "they don't get it"? In my opinion, no, as per the reasons I listed in the previous paragraph. I DO think we should engage these people whenever possible and explain to them the concepts and environments these games were based upon to try and convey to them how they are letting preconceived notions of these games blind them to what different types gameplay is out there.

No thanks. Honestly the concept of a 1CC is something you either get or you don't. I've tried explaining it to casual gamers (even those playing NES/SNES era stuff, which you'd think would be more open to the idea) and about the best responses I've gotten is being called a troll, and usually much worse.

I think the best way to deal with credit feeders is to flat out give them a bad ending or a "try again" screen when they "beat" the game.

[Skykid]

Why do I get the feeling I'm being trolled here...

Even though I agree with you, Skykid, there should not be one absolute way to enjoy shmups. People can play however they want without the consent of experienced players. Even with continues, beginners will eventually -or hopefully- master these parts of the game while relying less and less often on continues. It's not like beginners feel satisfied in dying to use a continue afterwards.

Hey, I've ways advocated playing to your own personal levels of satisfaction, especially when the big boys complain there aren't enough dedicated superheroes around - but Lawer's entire understanding of how to approach arcade games is backwards.

DestroyTheCore = "Not one absolute way to play shmups." / "People can play however they want without the consent of experienced players"

Me = "Hey, I've always advocated playing to your own personal levels of satisfaction, especially when the big boys complain there aren't enough dedicated superheroes around"

My response is really straightforward, I'm unsure why it needs clarification. While I applaud anyone with the resolve and determination to reach the top of the HS tables - I still advocate people playing to their own personal levels of satisfaction. Personal goals and milestones that don't include pressure to be a superplayer: A 1cc, knocking your buddy off the 10th space slot on the leaderboard, chaining stage one - whatever, as long as you enjoy yourself. For beginners this is paramount because you get comfortable with the genre and eventually push your own limits (this is basically what ptoing said, but with more detail.)

What I don't advocate is someone completely misunderstanding the fundamental way arcade games are supposed to work, hence the entire post actually being about Lawfer's comments and not about the paragraphs I've had to trot out above to satisfy your desire for clarification.

Please take the fact I had to explain this in minute detail as a gesture of goodwill. I really didn't want to do it.

[Giest118]

I dunno Skykid, you might still need to explain what you mean by the words "personal," "satisfaction," "clarification," and "the."

Y'know. To help alleviate the FLAGRANT ambiguity of literally all words you have ever said or ever will say on all subjects in all real and hypothetical discussions.

[Skykid]

[endoKarb]

See? It wasn't that difficult.

While I applaud anyone with the resolve and determination to reach the top of the HS tables - I still advocate people playing to their own personal levels of satisfaction

You say you applaud people playing for score, but advocate people playing to their own personal level of satisfaction.

But they are the same thing, people playing for score just get more enjoyment out of the experience, so they end up spending more time with the games.

Personal goals and milestones that don't include pressure to be a superplayer: A 1cc, knocking your buddy off the 10th space slot on the leaderboard, chaining stage one - whatever, as long as you enjoy yourself.

This "pressure to be a superplayer" is a concept you pretty much invented out of the blue. This chasm between people playing for scores and people "just playing for fun" that you suggest, it just doesn't exist.

We're all here to fun and we set our goal according to how passionate we are about the genre. There are no superplayer, no scoring superheros or any of that bullshit. It's all just people enjoing the games in their preferred way.