Extron 109xi flickering in DDSP mode?

[Asure]

So, i finally got my Extron setup working.
Xbox 360 to RGB 480i -> LM1881 and such DSUB15 -> Extron 109xi -> modded output to RGB Scart + composite sync, to a VileTim to Jamma, MS-9 on my Astro.

With DDSP OFF (this enables the DSP and allows me to shift the picture) there is still flickering and the picture information seems halved, and shifted.
With DDSP ON i have a 480i picture.

I'm pretty anal about video quality, but this does not look like a proper 240P picture to me at all. Am i just that anal? Where's the big fat scanlines?
I might be spoiled, i have an original Espgaluda 2 240P game PCB to compare to

Pictures because people love them and then the mods should hopefully approve my post

DDSP Disabled, 480i


DDSP Enabled, Pseudo 240P

(Clickable for big pics..)

Pictures do not really do justice, they are just showing 1 frame at most
The pseudo 240P flickers, and i can see that from 5 meters away. The 480i also flickers, but at 5 meters, it looks fine.
It's almost as if there is 15Khz flicker/movement in the pixels for some reason.
When i disable the DDSP after watching the pseudo for a while.. the 480i is almost pleasing to my eyes!
Something seems wrong to me Any protips, or is this just an incompatible monitor (MS9)?

[Fudoh]

The scanlines are certainly there on the 2nd pic.

This kind of 480i to 240p conversion only works GOOD on true low-res titles. You need to choose the low-res arcade version of ESPGaluda II. And you might have to shift the picture to the left or right (up or down in the game's menu) by one pixel. Currently the alignment seems off which causes the flicker.

If you want to run hi-res titles in 240p you have to get a proper converter (Genius, Emotia, UVC).

[Asure]

I did all the checking with the arcade (pixel doubled) version of Galuda 2, and i shifted one pixel to get the best result that is in the picture.
The on-screen text is perhaps a bad example to take a shot (could be 640x480P assets from the game), but in-game there is indeed still flicker.

Offcourse comparing to a true Espgaluda 2 240P arcade PCB is also 'bad', but if i had to describe the effect, it is almost as if i am looking at a image which flickers at 30Hz.
If i look at DDSP'd video for a minute, then disable the DDSP, 480i is so much more pleasing to my eyes, that i get the impression something is wrong with my setup.

[Fudoh]

I'm not a fan of this method, but last time I tried (I used ESPGaluda2 as well), results were really flawless.

In which direction does your monitor rotate ? Could you try - just for a moment - the other way around ? You don't have to flip the monitor, just flip by 180° inside the game and let the game run down instead of up.

[Asure]

Interestingly, i cannot seem to record video of the flicker with my phone, it looks awesome on a small clip i made.

Rotating the other way around has no effect. I had already adjusted the picture by -1 pixels to get the best possible pic.
Must be something to do with monitor compatibility, otherwise i cannot explain it.

Anybody after a 109xi with prewired scart cable?

[McCracAttack]

I don't have any advice but I do commiserate. I tried a similar set-up with an Extron VSC 700 and RGB 201rxi and had the same problem. It seems no amount of tweaking or fiddling will eliminate the flicker. It helps my ego a bit to know other people are having similar trouble.

[Asure]

Thanks, that will allow me to get a bit of sleep tonight

Do you also use an arcade monitor? Or a PVM/BVM crt? Mine's a Nanao MS-9.

From 00:25 in this video, you can see there are some areas in it around 33/33/33% horizontal.
There is a crawling line that shows another (hidden) image which is offset by 2 pixels if i am correct..
It is best seen on the right hand side in the brownish parts of the text box.

These two images are flickering between each other in pseudo mode for me. Seems incorrect, right?
The camera does not pick up the flickering, but it does show the crawling line. Human eyes see flickering

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IOqkg8IEfg

Edit: I sent Extron an email to see what they think. The second field appears to be +2 or +3 pixels offset. Move mouse over the white area to see the crawling line of the second field

[Asure]

Slight update, we tested with an official 360 scart cable on a MS2930 at a friends place.
There was no change, still the flickering as described above.

Fortunately the Extron stabilizes and cleans up VGA as well, so we ended up wiring VGA to the MS2930 which now works fine and does not cut out after a few minutes.
The default VGA signal from the Xbox used to screw up the MS2930, so at least that's solved now. No reply from Extron so far.

(I'm starting to think i may be better off trying to get a 24K picture and selling the Extron to somebody who _can_ use it.)

[BazookaBen]

I guess I'll bump this thread since it's not super-old.

I just picked up the 201rxi, and I've noticed some 30hz flicker with DDSP disabled. It certainly doesn't look as nice as a true 240p source. Here's an example with Castlevania Rondo of Blood, running on a Wii. First, in 480i > fake 240p via the Extron, then in true 240p mode, with the signal passed directly to my PVM 20M2MDU.

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag1 ... g~original

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag1 ... g~original

As you can see, the second picture has much thicker scan lines. Maybe there are some other settings I'm not aware of that can make it sharper?

That said, this pseudo-240p from the Extron really does make the few 480i-only games on my Wii look way better. Like the Castlevania and Gradius Rebirth games, and Mega Man 9. This is especially true when the game is in motion, where you don't notice the flicker but you can appreciate the sharper pixels. Looking forward to using this on some Xbox 360 shmups too.

[BuckoA51]

Try changing the sync polarity on your Extron interface, I noticed that had some interesting effects, might help, might not do anything but I'm curious to know

[BazookaBen]

Whoa, I found a solution!

If you shift the image upwards using the Vertical Centering knob, the picture gets much sharper the scanlines land perfectly on top of each other, giving a flicker-free 240p picture! Of course, then you have to shift the image downwards in the game options, which is thankfully an option most of these games have.

All of these games are 480i/480p only Wii games, sent through the extron with ADSP enabled.

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag1 ... g~original

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag1 ... g~original

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag1 ... g~original

Mega Man 9 looks so much better with this thing. Feels much more like a legitimate NES game.

[BuckoA51]

How can you use the centering knob if DDSP is enabled?

[BazookaBen]

Whoops, I mean disabled. It's in ADSP mode.

[BazookaBen]

After playing some more games with it, I'm noticing more flickering even with the adjustment mentioned above. It's hard to say exactly what's happening, but it seems the beams aren't landing in precisely the same spot every frame.It's not really an issue in darker games like ghosts and goblins or gradius, but in brighter games and stages you notice some shaking/flicker.

Since it only happens with bright colors, I wonder if I could attenuate the signal somehow before it gets to Extron, then boost it. Maybe I could put two Extron RGB's in series and just use the first one to darken the picutre, haha!

I guess i also need to try Bucko's suggestion to change the sync polarity.

[Classicgamer]

I am curious to know if the people having problems on this thread are using arcade monitors or not.

I can't get a stable interlaced image from my extron VSC with my arcade monitor. It looks like the lines sort of overlap with crazy flicker like one of the other people here said. It works perfectly on my crt tv and rgb broadcast monitor though. Using the DDSP trick doesn't fix the issue.

On the tv and broadcast monitor, the Extron VSCs anti flicker settings are almost always enough to produce a stable image, no matter what the source. They do nothing on the arcade monitor.

I have read posts from other people who say that they have problems with interlaced resolutions on their arcade monitors. Does anyone know what makes some arcade monitors handle interlacing differently to a tv? Do tv's have something on the chassis to stabilize an interlaced image?

As an FYI, if anyone is using a JPAC or a video amp, these also don't seem to play well with the rgb interfaces.

[BazookaBen]

I found out recently that adjusting vertical hold can improve the look of an interlaced image. So if that is adjustable on you monitor, you can give that a shot.