List Of Sony BVM's and PVM's

[jedman]

Hi

I am a bit confused by the different model numbers of the sony BVM's and PVM's.

Has anyone got a list of the different model numbers and what features they have?

For example I have seen Sony PVM-20M4E, and then PVM-20M2E, and also PVM-20L5, and PVM-20-L2.

Thanks

[Fudoh]

The L5 is the only multisync PVM, in other words, the only PVM which can be used for 31khz 480p signals as well.

[jedman]

Looks like the L2 isnt multi-sync http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-Trinitron- ... 3f364b9834

do you know what the difference in quality would be between an L5 and BVM?

[Ed Oscuro]

do you know what the difference in quality would be between an L5 and BVM?

Mostly physical geometry controls, as opposed to using adjustments from a menu. There are other differences but they are mostly relevant to pro video applications, not gaming.

[jedman]

I have found a PVM-20L4 on ebay, and also a Sony PVM-20M4E.

Do you know which of these is the better model?

I got a BVM-D20F1E but the screen has some small chips in the glass which I think will effect the picture so looks like I will have to send it back, also I cant seem to get the BKM-10R to work with it, it switches on and says its initializing, but then I cant access any menus.

Many thanks

[Ed Oscuro]

Use the BVM before sending it back, at least.

PVM 20L4 is probably newer than the PVM 20M4E (flyers dated 2001 and 1997 respectively).

Instead of constantly feeling that the series specs are mysterious, you can answer some of these questions for yourself:

Does one of the monitors have a feature I could use, while the other one doesn't? (TV lines specifications don't amount for all that much, but you might be interested in Multiformat vs. non-Multiformat differences, for example - multiformat allows 480p for example.)
Is it newer or older? (Newer is better, assuming a less aged unit with no burn-in or other abuse or damage.)
Is the price reasonable? (I wouldn't pay $100 more for a unit unless it had a much better feature I could use, i.e. the 480p multiformat models)
As long as it has RGB it should do what you need.

[22point8]

It depends what content you're playing, my 2044qm has an absolutely tiny scratch, about 1/5th mm by 1mm, can't see it 99% of the time, only noticed it in one dungeon in persona 4 where its predominantly greeny yellow.

My 1454qm is scratched badly, is missing some of the plastic underneath of the chassis, but the screen itself is barely used so looks really good, and again the damage isn't that noticeable.

The L4 would be smaller in height because instead of the controls being under the screen the controls are along the side bezel but is the same width as the M4 to fit into a rack. Being newer it might have more geometry options in the service menu.

[jedman]

also I cant seem to get the BKM-10R to work with it, it switches on and says its initializing, but then I cant access any menus.

Do you know whats happening here? do i need to have something connected to operate the menus? I don't have the scart to bnc cable yet so haven't connected any consoles.

[jedman]

It depends what content you're playing, my 2044qm has an absolutely tiny scratch, about 1/5th mm by 1mm, can't see it 99% of the time, only noticed it in one dungeon in persona 4 where its predominantly greeny yellow.

My 1454qm is scratched badly, is missing some of the plastic underneath of the chassis, but the screen itself is barely used so looks really good, and again the damage isn't that noticeable.

The L4 would be smaller in height because instead of the controls being under the screen the controls are along the side bezel but is the same width as the M4 to fit into a rack. Being newer it might have more geometry options in the service menu.

found out the sony monitors have an anti glare coating that can be removed, all the scratches are on this most likely, its pretty thick. check this video out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPbDvqFdjG4

[Kadano]

The L5 is the only multisync PVM, in other words, the only PVM which can be used for 31khz 480p signals as well.

There’s at least one other multisync PVM, the 20M7MDE. I know because I have one myself. Other non-PVM broadcast CRTs are listed here by ShortFuse, but the list is likely to be incomplete.

This thread is somewhat high on Google results for 31khz+480p+PVM, so I felt like adding this information for those searching for a 31khz PVM.
I paid 160€ for mine, it’s in good, but not perfect condition. The rightmost 40px or something have decreasing brightness, and the whole monitor is somewhat susceptible to power changes. For example, when someone turns off a light switch in my house, sometimes the PVM goes black for one or two seconds. I think that the powering in my house is at fault at least partly. Other CRTs I have (TVs and 130khz+ PC monitors) never have similar problems, but my audio receiver does. It might just be some internal damage protection.́

I can take pictures of the brightness loss at the rightmost end if requested.

Also, for what it’s worth, the PVM-20M7MDE has printed “HR Trinitron” and “100Hz DOUBLE SCAN” printed on its front bezel. Its documentation lists it as having 800px vertical resolution and supporting progressive scan. It’s the only M-series PVM I know of that does 480p.
The double scan might add some lag, but it’s only activated when feeding 50Hz sources. If I am not mistaken, it buffers every frame and displays it twice. Depending on how the buffering is executed and how we define lag, the lag compared to a normal CRT should be one fourth of a frame to one entire frame.
(My thinking behind that: to display one frame twice, every frame is sent in half the time — 10 milliseconds instead of 20. So to make the scan rate continuous, at least half of the frame needs to be buffered before it can start to shoot out that frame’s information. So as soon as the bottom half of the current frame is received from the source, the buffer can be output, while still storing the current input. The last couple of lines are displayed near-instant. So for the top part of the frame, we have a delay of 10 milliseconds, for the middle part 5 ms and for the bottom part 0 ms (always comparing against a 15khz CRT, which scans from top to bottom as well and takes longer to move from top to bottom, explaining why the frame doubling lag gets better closer to the bottom of the screen.
The above is the fastest that I think is theoretically possible, but I believe it would be hard to code it like that. IMHO it’s more likely that one entire frame is buffered, so that would be 20 ms delay for the top part, 15 for the middle and 10 for the bottom, average 15 ms delay.)

But yeah, does anyone even use 50 hz at all?

[Ed Oscuro]

“100Hz DOUBLE SCAN” printed on its front bezel.

That explains quite a few things about it. I wouldn't consider that an especially good set for gaming (although if the alternative is a laggy / blurry LCD, it might be worthwhile). I don't think it'll work with lightguns, for instance, and there should be 1 frame of lag.

You mention its documentation...800px sounds more like a 800TVL spec which wouldn't be out of line for a 720p set. Are you sure of this? Google turns up nothing unfortunately.

[Fudoh]

But yeah, does anyone even use 50 hz at all?

On the European 100Hz TVs I know, the processing was identical for 60Hz sources (50 -> 100Hz, 60 -> 120Hz).
Basically the CRT is internally running at 31khz and 15khz signals scan doubled.

What wasn't clear from your posting though: does the set accept native 31khz signals well ? And how do 15khz signals look. Most 100Hz TVs with the same processing weren't able to properly display a 240p image.

[Xan]

If it's rare you could just post the documentation here, you know...

But yeah, does anyone even use 50 hz at all?

Certain GC and PSX games render in slightly higher resolutions in PAL, so especially if the game is properly speed-optimized, 50 Hz can be a real alternative. Example: every Crash Bandicoot game by Naughty Dog, Andy Gavin even acknowledged on his blog that the PAL renditions look a bit sharper because the extra work to properly code them was put in. Still at the cost of running at 25 FPS vs. 30 of course.

And this is an American made game... for certain European games, it has already been proven that PAL was used as the reference region for development, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGACXzEjgw4 (runs slower in NTSC).

50 Hz seems to be a legit speedrun category at least for pre-6th gen PAL titles.

[Ed Oscuro]

And this is an American made game... for certain European games, it has already been proven that PAL was used as the reference region for development, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGACXzEjgw4 (runs slower in NTSC).

After watching that video, which is quite interesting, I'm not immediately swayed to the PAL version. All that is proven sacrificed in the NTSC version are: Aspect ratio handling in video is weird (whoopee) and in gameplay the timer runs too slowly (note that an 8% timer slowdown isn't what I'd expect from a straight speedup of a 25Hz game to 30Hz - that should be a 20% speedup). Physics might be a bit off, cars might be 8% slower, and you can't directly compare times anymore, but this is a game after all and fluidity matters at least as much as absolute speed. My perspective is that if you're getting 30fps without hitches instead of 25fps, the NTSC one should be superior for gameplay, unless the 8% reduced speed of the cars is too bad to deal with.

[Unseen]

But yeah, does anyone even use 50 hz at all?

Sure, most C64 demos don't work on NTSC machines.

[Kadano]

“100Hz DOUBLE SCAN” printed on its front bezel.

That explains quite a few things about it. I wouldn't consider that an especially good set for gaming (although if the alternative is a laggy / blurry LCD, it might be worthwhile). I don't think it'll work with lightguns, for instance, and there should be 1 frame of lag.

If I understand the service manual correctly, double scan can be disabled even for 50 hz sources. (I uploaded the manual to mediafire.)
Why do you think it would lag? Because it would check every frame for whether it should apply its frame doubling?

You mention its documentation...800px sounds more like a 800TVL spec which wouldn't be out of line for a 720p set. Are you sure of this? Google turns up nothing unfortunately.

See this pdf, page 14.

But yeah, does anyone even use 50 hz at all?

On the European 100Hz TVs I know, the processing was identical for 60Hz sources (50 -> 100Hz, 60 -> 120Hz).
Basically the CRT is internally running at 31khz and 15khz signals scan doubled.
What wasn't clear from your posting though: does the set accept native 31khz signals well ? And how do 15khz signals look. Most 100Hz TVs with the same processing weren't able to properly display a 240p image.

I only bought this PVM after having confirmed its 31khz capability, bringing a hacked PAL Gamecube with 480p forcing with me to the seller. I buy all my hardware exclusively for SSBM.

I don’t think I have 240p video sources around. I have modded Gamecubes and Wiis that I can load any game from, though. Is there one for these that has 240p? If so, I can take videos either with my high-speed camera or my capture card (PEXHDCAP / Yuan SC500) and upload them if you find them interesting or helpful.

[Kadano]

So, I took some 240 fps videos (stretched to 30 fps, so every frame is repeated seven times). The video quality is rather bad, my Casio EX-FH100 isn’t exactly a high-end high speed camera. Still, it should do the job for figuring out how the frame doubling works.
576p50 source
As far as I can tell, this video mode doesn’t work properly at all. After every full in-game frame, the next frame part should be shifted slightly vertically. Actually, every four 240fps frames and thus every 60fps frame, the same vertical part of the video is shown. I don’t understand it.
480p60 source
Okay, this one works as expected (no frame doubling). The vertical ranges stay constant for every a+n*(mod4) frame (frame 1 is the same vertical range as frame 5 and 9, 2 is the same as 6 and 10 and so on) as they should. Four frame parts per 60 fps frame make sense as 240/4=60.
576i50 source
This also works as expected, we clearly have frame doubling here. Every 2.4 240fps frames we see another scan, but every second of these is the repetition of the former.
480i60 source
This one has frame doubling as well, which can easily be told because every frame scan is done within two 240fps frames.

Concerning lag, I counted an average of 3 60fps frames delay between the full control stick input and the resulting dash in-game. I started counting with the first frame that started scanning after sufficient input strength on the controller was visible and finished counting with the frame where output was visible. This is true for both the 480p60 video on the PVM and for reference videos I took on my “Melee standard” setup (Gamecube analog output → pre-HD CRT TV) and on my GDM setup (Gamecube VGA → Extron 164xi → some PC CRT monitors).

For the 576i50 source, I counted 8 to 9 100fps frames delay between the full control stick input and the resulting dash in-game. I added +1 to the counter whenever another scan, regardless of whether it was a repetition or not, started. So to compare these to the 60hz value, we need to divide by (100/60). The result is 4.8 to 5.4, considerably more than the 3 frames which were pretty much constant at 3 frames (sometimes it bordered on 2, sometimes on 4 to the inaccuracy of this method).

For the 480i60 source, I counted 7 to 8 120fps frames delay between stick input and on-screen output. So unless I was horrible at counting this one or am making a big thinking mistake, 60hz frame doubling seems to incur less lag than 50hz frame doubling.

So I personally believe that these test videos confirm my belief that the PVM-20M7MDE does not add lag from its frame buffer technology when playing in 480p60 / 31 khz. It does add lag when playing in 15 khz, but I have lots of SD CRTs for that and only bought the PVM for 31 khz, so for me that’s a non-issue.
I am biased, though, so maybe I sub-conciously took some freedom in counting to get the result I was expecting. I did double-check most of my countings, though. (Some parts of the videos seem to have skipping, I didn’t count these.)

[Fed]

If I understand the service manual correctly, double scan can be disabled even for 50 hz sources.

I could not find that info in the service manual, how is that achieved ?
If double scan is disabled then does the 20M7MDE become as good as any other PVM to play 240p games ?

[Dochartaigh]

Has anyone got a list of the different model numbers and what features they have?

Here's a great resource, the CRT Wiki with specs for a ton of them:

https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/wiki/speclist

found out the sony monitors have an anti glare coating that can be removed, all the scratches are on this most likely, its pretty thick. check this video out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPbDvqFdjG4

Not all of them have this, fyi, and it's kinda impossible to tell without opening them up to see if the piece of laminate (or whatever it's called) is over the screen or not. Most of the newest CRT PVM's do however (albeit they're like 15-20 years old by now lol).

There’s at least one other multisync PVM, the 20M7MDE. I know because I have one myself. Other non-PVM broadcast CRTs are listed here by ShortFuse, but the list is likely to be incomplete.

That list is ok, but it's not correct since we're pretty sure the BVM-1911 for instance doesn't do 480p (which made like 100 other posts use that same incorrect list!) – also doesn't like many others like the Ikegami's which can do 480p as well. Plenty of other presentation type monitors too.