XRGB-mini Framemeister

[blizzz]

Not to mention that you need a workstation grade graphics card to output at 10bit color depths. Geforce and Radeon cards can only output 8bit.

[TheShadowRunner]

@blizzz, so if your screen is an 8bit panel as well, how come you see the Mini outputting 12bit? xD

[blizzz]

I assume my TV interpolates the colors. Also, my previous post might be wrong. I just googled a bit and it seems like some Radeon cards support 10/12 bit output over HDMI.

[RGB32E]

According to the specs for my TV, it has a 10-bit panel with 10-bit processing. What it does with a 12-bit RGB or YUV signal, I cannot say. I'm trying to think of how you'd test to see what the XRGB-mini is doing with the 4 extra bpp, and how a given TV is displaying it.

[TheShadowRunner]

Indeed the Deep Color option makes perfect sense for a 10bit panel, hence my surprise when it comes to blizzz's display's seemingly 8bit panel WITH Deep Color option (otherwise without it the Mini wouldn't HDMI handshake/agree to output 12bit), strange.

[Xan]

I believe real 10-bit is really just on quantum dot backlight sets now, and some professional grade PC monitors perhaps. A lot of them will just have a higher-bit LUT combined with a lower-bit panel with temporal dithering though, but that often isn't made so clear on the internet.

[marqs]

Not to mention that you need a workstation grade graphics card to output at 10bit color depths. Geforce and Radeon cards can only output 8bit.

You can enable 10-bit per component output on recent Geforce cards under Linux. However, that only works for DisplayPort, not for HDMI.

[FBX]

Anyone notice a flickering noise issue on certain shades of solid color with the Framemeister's output? For example in Mega Man X for the SNES, there's some in the purple sky on the first stage, and this is even with top quality RGB cabling using CSYNC. Interestingly, you can mess with the "A/D" setting to get rid of the flickering, but likely will cause other solid color shades to start flickering. It's as though you can never really completely eliminate it no matter what A/D setting you use.

From what I've been discussing with a few others in email, this noise does seem to be generated by the Framemeister and is not present in the console output signal.

Edit: Seems this was mentioned earlier in this thread as well.

[Thomago]

Seems this was mentioned earlier in this thread as well.

You already said it - the flickering is (unfortunately) perfectly normal and there's no solution for it (except for maybe completely bypassing the Framemeister's analog-to-digital conversion).

[RGB32E]

Seems this was mentioned earlier in this thread as well.

You already said it - the flickering is (unfortunately) perfectly normal and there's no solution for it (except for maybe completely bypassing the Framemeister's analog-to-digital conversion).

It can be minimized though using a high quality 5VDC power supply. Also, picture modes other than "natural" and "picture" have a stronger LPF that reduces/eliminates it. However, those modes make the overall picture softer, and can "smooth out" gradients in various games.

[FBX]

Seems this was mentioned earlier in this thread as well.

You already said it - the flickering is (unfortunately) perfectly normal and there's no solution for it (except for maybe completely bypassing the Framemeister's analog-to-digital conversion).

It can be minimized though using a high quality 5VDC power supply. Also, picture modes other than "natural" and "picture" have a stronger LPF that reduces/eliminates it. However, those modes make the overall picture softer, and can "smooth out" gradients in various games.

What would you suggest is the best 5VDC power supply to use? (I'm in the States BTW)

[RGB32E]

I've had good luck with a Panasonic ETU-5K30 in conjunction with a Corcom 6CFE1. I got both for about $20 new, but looking at prices online I'm not sure you'd find one for that price again.

Something like the Velleman PSIN04005 would work. If you have any electronic surplus stores in your area you might be able to find an EMI line filter/power entry module for cheap as well.

[FBX]

Thanks for the tip!

By the way, I had been using "Game_1" as the image type, but then I noticed "Picture" is decidedly cleaner looking on the SNES. If anyone wants a good demonstration of what the low-pass filter does, just look at the title screen of Space Megaforce. The blue gradient background will appear blurry on modes like "Game_1" that use low-pass filtering, while "Picture" mode has nice sharp bands of color.

[CkRtech]

By the way, I had been using "Game_1" as the image type, but then I noticed "Picture" is decidedly cleaner looking on the SNES. If anyone wants a good demonstration of what the low-pass filter does, just look at the title screen of Space Megaforce. The blue gradient background will appear blurry on modes like "Game_1" that use low-pass filtering, while "Picture" mode has nice sharp bands of color.

I am afraid I don't have a copy of that game. Can you send me one, please?

[FBX]

Soon as I win the lottery, I'll send you my copy.

[Joelepain]

It can be minimized though using a high quality 5VDC power supply. Also, picture modes other than "natural" and "picture" have a stronger LPF that reduces/eliminates it. However, those modes make the overall picture softer, and can "smooth out" gradients in various games.

I also like to use the Movie mode. It doesn't have the LPF like natural and picture, and it adds an artificial noise that looks like film grain. I suppose it does the same effect as dithering so maybe that why I find it more pleasant. But it's a matter of taste.

[Thomago]

Movie mode does have the same LPF as Natural and Picture mode. I wish I could deactivate it, it does more harm than good (actually I doubt it does any good if you have somewhat decent signal sources).
The film grain however is a great addition, the "dithering" effect really helps straightening out color banding and hides some of the dreaded flickering.

[austin532]

I thought Movie mode didn't use any LPF? Also why do people prefer Natural mode over Movie mode for 480i content? Natural over saturates the image like Game_2 and Animie and just gives the image a smudgy look to it.

[Thomago]

I thought Movie mode didn't use any LPF?

I just (again) compared Movie mode with Natural and Picture; it's indeed exactly the same in regards to LPF - not as excessive as for example the Game modes, but still very obvious.

Also why do people prefer Natural mode over Movie mode

Never understood that... maybe they hate the added artificial noise? It's nearly invisible in 1080p from a normal viewing distance, but if you use 720p output (or even 480p) it's more distinctive.
Another thing - why don't people use 960p DVI output? In contrast to the often recommended 720p output it's perfect for both 240p AND 480i/p games.
Have common HDTVs trouble with scaling that to their native resolution or what?

[Fudoh]

Have common HDTVs trouble with scaling that to their native resolution or what?

960p (or quadrupling) is anything but a common resolution. Most TVs won't even display anything with a signal like this.

[FBX]

Movie mode does have the same LPF as Natural and Picture mode. I wish I could deactivate it, it does more harm than good (actually I doubt it does any good if you have somewhat decent signal sources).
The film grain however is a great addition, the "dithering" effect really helps straightening out color banding and hides some of the dreaded flickering.

It was my understanding that "Picture" mode does NOT have filtering. It's the only mode that doesn't muddy the graphics on my SNES games. As I mentioned before, color bands are nice and sharp instead of being blurred (I like my graphics unfiltered and sharp as glass).

[Shining]

^ That's what i thought too.

[MojoBox]

Neither Movie, Natural, nor Picture has LPF. Picture is the recommended mode for 240p (and progressive signals in general) because it's the only one that uses 2:2 Pulldown, which to my understanding will simply display every frame without attempting to deinterlace.

[FBX]

I just confirmed "Picture" does NOT have filtering. I even did a color band test to show how each mode works. When low-pass filter is active, dark color bands appear blurry. When oversaturation or other enhancements are active, white noise appears in dark color bands. Here are the results of each mode:

Standard = Low-pass filter
Game_1 = Low-pass filter
Game_2 = White noise
Meister = Scanlines + low-pass filter
Anime = White noise
Movie = Clean
Natural = White noise
Picture = Clean

So for me, the best option is "Picture" since I don't want any enhancements or filtering.

[Fudoh]

To complete this listing:

Picture also disables the deinterlacer, which then leaves movie as best choice for 480i sources.

Game1, Game2 and Meister mode use single field deinterlacing (which has no real advantage on the Mini). Standard, Anime, Movie und Natural use standard deinterlacing.

One point I don't know: possibly movie has a cadence detection which might cause the deinterlacer to (sometimes) fail on 480i video material. I know that the Marvell has different deinterlacing modes, but I don't know of the movie settings triggers one of them. In this case Natural might be the better choice than movie. Can't say, since I've not used enough 480i material.

[MojoBox]

I've been playing a lot of Gamecube games at 480i (because the Mini outputs a significantly better image at 480i vs 480p) and I've been using Natural because the Wiki had recommended it as the best mode for interlaced source. I'd gotten the impression that Natural lacked any enhancement while Movie adjusted colors, but it seems like that might be the other way around. I'll have to test that out.

Game1/Game2 (linear/bob deinterlacing) has one benefit over the other deinterlacing modes (pixel/motion adapative): complete lack of comb artifacts. But the trade-off is big, you effectively lose half the vertical resolution. Comb artifacts are pretty uncommon most of the time so it's not a worthwhile trade. The one case I've found where I'd consider it is Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door, which tends to generate a lot of comb artifacts and lacks detailed/busy texture work so the resolution loss is less prominent. Still, in the end, even there I opted for the other modes. I will now have to compare Movie and Natural and see if either handles that game better.

[Xan]

Is there any video comprehensively showcasing the mini's deinterlacing quality? I have a hard time imagining how severe those comb effects actually are, though for genres like slow RPGs I feel that a processor which trades a bit of more lag for image quality could be more desirable. Assuming the mini buffers 2 fields at 20ms, a unit with 4 fields at 36ms could give much better quality. Perhaps what I'm looking for here is only available in much more expensive devices though, and these probably wouldn't be aimed at games nearly as much.

[Fudoh]

In standard mode the Mini's deinterlacer is VERY good. Better than any other external deinterlacer in terms of retaining background details, excellent at keeping pixels "blocky" and very good in its motion estimation.

The only material with which I ran into problems are low-res 240p that are running in 480i (stuff like Sengoku Blade or Samurai Spirits Zero on PS2), but for these you really need a single-field deinterlacing mode. You can also play with the V_SCALER setting to mimic single-field deinterlacing in the standard deinterlacing modes.

Can somebody name a few real 480i titles which cause serious combing ?

[Thomago]

Dark Cloud comes to mind.

[austin532]

Natural is definitely NOT ideal for 480i material. It causes white noise and can make the image appear smudgy.

A good example of this are the clouds in Kingdom Hearts on Destiny Islands. With Movie the clouds look fine but with Natural they look horrible and the sky is overly saturated. I've tried taking comparison pics but it's hard to see any difference with a camera.