Better Nuclear Reactors

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BryanM
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Better Nuclear Reactors

Post by BryanM »

So, the kind of fission reactors we use are from an old navy program, with the goal being the fastest possible way to design a nuclear reactor that could power a submarine. For a power plant on land... they're a rather stupid design. So clearly stupid, that a lot of the people who worked on developing them (Alvin Weinberg being rather prominent) pushed for something better. So clearly stupid, that a lot of the first plants were built with the expectation that they'd be shut down in 30 years, because what kind of idiot would want to keep using these clearly suboptimal things? (.... Yeah.)

This old youtube of Kirk's lecture has been making the rounds. Most of this post will regurgitate his major points for those without three hours to kill.

First up, the two major reasons our nuclear plant designs suck so bad, followed by miscellaneous stuff:


Water Cooling

Okay. Water. As a coolant. Think about that for a minute: what temperature does water turn into a gas and stops being water? Like 212 F, right? And how hot does a power plant have to be to efficiently turn turbines?

For water to stay as water, it requires a system in place to put it under pressure to increase its boiling point. This use of high pressure and water is the #1 safety threat in these plants, and is a huge chunk of the cost of a plant. The large concrete sarcophagus of the containment building has to be several times larger than the reactor to contain the expansion of water into steam in a worst case scenario.

Fukushima demonstrated best how dangerous water is - when sociopathic idiots allow the pressure system to fail [1], the water turns into steam. The steam separates into hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen and oxygen separate into separate layers, with hydrogen at the top, and the hydrogen eventually decides to explode if it feels like it's too hot.

Salt as a coolant has been knocked around as an idea worth using. In a salt cooled reactor, in the worst case scenario where God comes down from the heavens, rips the building and reactor in half: The fuel and coolant will spill out in the room a few feet in all directions, then cools into a solid on the floor; never turning into a gas to spread all over the place and fuck up everyone's potatoes. In a more reasonable scenario, the reactor suffers a puncture or tear that seals itself shut, and the contents of the reactor are emptied into an underground emergency storage tank that's designed to shed heat, turning everything into an inert solid.


Solid Fuel

Our reactors use solid fuel. Does that make sense? That does not make sense.

From a safety perspective, this doesn't make things too much worse. You just have a missile shield in place to make sure that the inevitable hydrogen explosion caused by a literal real-life Mr.Burns, doesn't launch them out.

There are a lot of down sides to this however:

* You can only burn around 0.5% of the fuel before pulling it out, since if it shatters into fragments you're screwed. The Uranium needed for fission isn't an infinite resource, and you're talking about making the stuff at least a couple orders of magnitude more expensive to use than it really is.

* Additionally it's kind of hard to have a "melt down" if you're using liquid fuel. Being as how it's already "melted" to begin with..

* You can't separate out the elements generated by all that fissionin'. This stuff isn't worthless green goo like in The Simpsons; they're just elements. With extra neutrons in them. And decay chains to get those neutrons down to stable levels. They're rare stuff in nature, and there's lots of applications for them; medical, fuel for deep space NASA probes, etc.

* Fission has a nemesis: Xenon. Gobbles up all your neutrons and doesn't give anything back. In liquid fuel, it's an impotent gas that will bubble out and float far far away from all your precious exploding atoms.

* It's a bit of a razor blades model. Hey buy our power plant, oh yeah, and you're going to have to buy our fuel for the next 50 years.


Breeder/Burner

A burner reactor is simply a reactor that burns fuel as you put into it. Really not much different fundamentally than a furnace; just you're using fission instead of combustion to generate heat.

A breeder reactor creates fission material as it goes. With Thorium, you split uranium, this releases some neutrons, the thorium absorbs neutrons, and then transmutes [2] into uranium from beta decay, which is when a neutron turns into a proton.

This is ultimately pretty useful, since there's a finite amount of Uranium 233 out there. Getting more out than what you put in can be used to kickstart more reactors.


Alternatives

Alternatives to decent nuclear reactors are... somewhat lacking, on a number of fronts. Foremost in the media and public consciousness is nuclear hysteria. Nothing in the universe is free. Coal plants for example, spill out tons more radiation than nuclear ones, and kill far far more people all the way from the supply chain to exhaust. As the always sexy Matt Bors puts it:

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But we've got to be brutally honest here; human lives don't matter all that much. If they did, we'd outlaw cars and would ride bicycles to work instead. What really matters is getting access to that sweet, sweet energy. Peak worldwide supply of oil and coal are coming up, we've had several wars over access to this stuff in the past century, global warming can cause us to all starve to death; put simply, the status quo on power isn't going to last this century.

Renewables have a lot of problems. Foremost is energy density. Sunlight isn't even fierce enough in atmosphere to melt snow on a road. This means you have to spend tons of money making gigantic power plants - you basically need the space of a very large city to get from solar what you could get out of a thorium breeder reactor in one warehouse sized spot. [3] This also causes cost issues in additional transmission lines to transport the electricity.

Exposure to elements is another. Tree leaves are death to solar panels, so you need to kill anything alive within a mile. You've got to have guys wipe off dust from a field of panels as large as New York City. The power generators will just die much sooner if they were in a safe cozy concrete bunker.

And storage is extremely unrealistic currently. You're going to spend a dollar to build a battery to store $0.00001 worth of electricity? That's.. not very efficient.

For base, cost effective electricity generation that can be used anywhere, we have to spin turbines with some kind of heating element. Wind and solar can only be a supplemental supply [4]. We're stuck with that.


Energy Means Prosperity

One of those things batshit people (example: Helen Caldicott) suggest we should do is... basically tear down civilization altogether. Live like the Amish. Things will be better this way.

I'm of the opinion... things would not be better this way. Disregard about how this means we'll never get those robot women or space colonies or jetpacks science has always promised us... and note how much better life is with mechanical power. The difference between the health of a rich first world country and a starving third world [5] one isn't some special snowflake difference in the people living there, but access to fuel.

Note the foundation of every economy: food.

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Crops such as corn and wheat are now largely done by one guy driving over a field a few times. They're so cheap, governments have to pay people to grow them. [6]

I'm not saying the place is going to turn into a Mad Max style hell hole (as opposed to an Amish Paradise), but it's pretty realistic to expect we'll eventually revert to the biblical style tribalism that we still see in places like Afghanistan. [7] That means a good chance that slavery and ownership of women will make a comeback. You can choose to believe that the 1950's prove what magical extra special people we are compared to most of the history of humanity, or you can believe that times of prosperity is the only way people can have the luxury to be decent.

The Library of Alexandria has already been burned to the ground a couple times over; I don't think it's a good idea to do it again.


Future Developments

If it's such a good idea, why haven't/aren't we doing this?

Well, basically because only governments can make it happen. If you own $trillions of oil in the ground, or you're already running a nuclear plant, there's no incentive to spend $2 billion and a decade on R&D to render the assets you already own less valuable. In the US, Weinberg was fired by the Nixon Administration [8] for squawking incessantly about science, the laws of physics, future of humanity blah blahbitty type stuff.

So uh. Eh. There are some companies that are trying to get to liquid fuel, but uh..... yeah guess what.

China is re-developing the Thorium breeder reactor. And plans to begin deploying it 10 years from now.

So uh, in the future the heart of all of our power plants will be bought from China? [9] Let's pretend to be surprised if that happens.




[1] Seriously, did even a single person who made the decision to keep the emergency generators in a nice low area to get knocked out by a tidal wave ever see prison time? Or was BP's strategy in these matters sufficient?

[2] You may remember that transmutation was that thing alchemists wanted to do to transform lead into gold. As far as we know, the only viable way to do this is with nuclear fission or fusion. In the long long run, this sort of elemental forging could be pretty important. Scarcity is one thing, but another is that every element from tasty Bismuth up is unstable (ie, "radioactive") and not long for this universe. We don't even know if hydrogen is going to survive.

[3] The density of fission versus combustion is ridiculous - a city like San Antonio would have its electricity needs met by one or two truckloads of thorium. Per year. That's a lot of lost jobs in transportation.. or several orders of magnitude more power.

[4] This is still very valuable. Much like water, electricity has marginal returns. Some electricity is much, much better than no electricity.

[5] We've really no right to say "hey, no western style of living for you." I'd go on record as saying that's intrinsically immoral.

[6] For crops that need to be harvested by hand, we pay immigrants around 3 to 7 dollars an hour for the type of job that's comparable to mining coal, as far as its health effects go.

[7] A place where many practice biblical law.

[8] An era where they also thought space ships were too awesome and cheap so they decided to scrap them all and make crummy shuttles. All so Putin could make trampoline jokes at our expense decades later.

[9] Versus just building more coal plants. Which is... really optimistic of me to even suggest, knowing how my country works. Eh..
Last edited by BryanM on Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:29 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Better Nuclear Reactors

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Hopefully relevant, this article from TomDispatch talks in some detail about some of the lesser-known tradeoffs of "alternative" fuels. The most relevant points to this discussion are: 1.) technological persistence, which BryanM kind of alludes to in the "how did these things stick around so long" aspect, and 2.) the "crowding out" (ahh, love that phrase in this context) of one technology by another's profitability. Taken together, profitability curves are much longer than people suspect, even given long and obvious trends in fuel markets. Who thinks that everybody just ditched their muscle car in the '70s when the fuel crisis hit? Basically the same truth holds here, except that buying and maintaining an energy plant is far more complicated.

One thing that is nice about nuclear fuel is that there is relatively little volume of contaminants. They do require special safeguards when reduced to waste, but that's probably in large part again to visibility - I bet you could screw with water supplies something fierce if you found where all the scrubbed-out cadmium and mercury is held.

BTW, the original rationale for using water cooling in early fission reactors, as described by one of the original manuals on the project that I happened across, is summed up by the author's phrase "water has no cracks." There are obvious physical disadvantages, but water was easily available to ships at sea and leakage into the environment was less of a concern than having parts of the reactor that were not adequately reached by cooling material. With modern form-shaping technology and possibly alternative liquid coolants, the danger of uncooled reactor parts is likely mostly eliminated.
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Re: Better Nuclear Reactors

Post by Xyga »

Fuck fission, it's cleaner than coal and oil but when one fails it's too much of a fucking nightmare.

We need Mr. Fusion now.
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Re: Better Nuclear Reactors

Post by trap15 »

Xyga wrote:Fuck fission, it's cleaner than coal and oil but when one fails it's too much of a fucking nightmare.
Even when it fails it's still safer than coal and oil. Coal and oil are not safe.
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Re: Better Nuclear Reactors

Post by Xyga »

Not sure about that, say there's a new world war, many reactors located in densely populated areas (because of course this is where we build plants) get hit and boom.
How much surface of unlivable-for-ages land and how many millions of dead and sooner-or-later dead people does that make ?

I know the potential for carbon-eco-disaters is much greater in the long (not so long) term, but who knows what can happen with nukes ?
All the 'it's safe, plants can withstand anything and are modern-enough to prevent any meltdown risk' is industry and politics absolute bullshit.
No one will ever make me feel safe living even a thousand miles from a nuclear plant, and worse; a poorly protected giant waste processing depot (La Hague) which hosts enough of the worst shit on Earth to turn all of us into zombies within 24hrs.
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Re: Better Nuclear Reactors

Post by Ed Oscuro »

There's apparently a lot of distorting information out there - the author in the link I posted points out that many people are using very old and outdated coal plants as their point of reference for coal plants (because that's what's still in use in many places), and it may be that there's not much evidence yet on new designs. Certainly there is a lot to "scrub" out and that gets quite expensive.
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Re: Better Nuclear Reactors

Post by system11 »

It's stupid and irrational to be afraid of them. Unfortunately much of what humans (and governments) do is dictated by stupid irrational fears. Every time you step outside of the house is higher risk that sitting indoors with one 5 miles up the road.

Honestly though I think if/when the power problem is fixed we're still totally fucked by population and the destruction of land to grow food for it and build more houses. Bee populations is a good one. Who cares about bees, right? We don't eat them. We don't eat anything that eats them, I can live without honey, who gives a shit?

http://bumblebeeconservation.org/about- ... -need-help

Oh dear. We're pretty good at this too, we've had practise:

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Re: Better Nuclear Reactors

Post by Teufel_in_Blau »

Aaaah, correlation vs causation. I have another one:

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Re: Better Nuclear Reactors

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You're dumb if you think the graph I posted shows unrelated things. Really, seriously dumb.
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Re: Better Nuclear Reactors

Post by antron »

This thread lead me to check up on the ITER project (thermal fusion). Looks like a US senate panel has recommended the US withdraw due to mismanagement. And that was when the Democrats had control. Fuck.

I guess there is still plenty of hope that the world can make it work without us. The US contributed jack-shit to CERN after all.
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Re: Better Nuclear Reactors

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BryanM wrote:If it's such a good idea, why haven't/aren't we doing this?

Well, basically because only governments can make it happen. If you own $trillions of oil in the ground, or you're already running a nuclear plant, there's no incentive to spend $2 billion and a decade on R&D to render the assets you already own less valuable. In the US, Weinberg was fired by the Nixon Administration [8] for squawking incessantly about science, the laws of physics, future of humanity blah blahbitty type stuff.

So uh. Eh. There are some companies that are trying to get to liquid fuel, but uh..... yeah guess what.
One more reason why the "greed is (always) good" mantra is the first thing that needs to die before humanity will ever make any progress worth making.
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Re: Better Nuclear Reactors

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Whatever, what Morbo said.
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Re: Better Nuclear Reactors

Post by CMoon »

Fossil fuels are by far the worst option and need to be scrapped now (assuming you agree with 99% of world scientists)

Nuclear power is great for wildlife and biodiversity. Meltdown areas become wildlife zones. Even though animals and plants are experiencing toxic levels of radiation, they are relatively short lived anyway, so impact of radiation is far less than the impact of habitat loss caused by humans. So I think you can be pro-earth and pro-nuclear.

Are sustainable energy sources (solar, wind, tidal, geothermal) not sufficient without supplementing from nuclear? Either way, I'm game.
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Re: Better Nuclear Reactors

Post by system11 »

Well.

Geothermal can cause environmental problems (small earthquakes from one for example, construction aborted).
Tidal is too expensive and needs a large tide, can also affect the marine environment - maintenance costs are high because we all know what salt water does to metal things.
Windmills are frankly noisy and ugly - I do wonder if grazing land would be a good place to put them though. Unreliable energy output and care must be taken to place them away from bird migration or hunting areas.
Solar probably has the least impact of the lot, but obviously you need predictable sun. Would covering a desert with them work?

There's no 'perfect' solution and I have no positive thoughts regarding the future.
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Re: Better Nuclear Reactors

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system11 wrote: Solar probably has the least impact of the lot, but obviously you need predictable sun. Would covering a desert with them work?
My family and I are thinking of getting both a solar panel and a heater. We get 350 days of sunlight a year here in Arizona.
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Re: Better Nuclear Reactors

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CMoon wrote:Are sustainable energy sources (solar, wind, tidal, geothermal) not sufficient without supplementing from nuclear? Either way, I'm game.
As Kirk likes to point out often, the Thorium to Uranium fuel cycle is as renewable as geothermal, since geothermal IS mostly fission.

So far Germany's energy experiment of no nuclear, all wind and solar.. has been a great boon to the coal and oil industries. Having to start up and shut down these types of generators brings with it inefficiencies.

As I mentioned before, it takes a lot of energy and work to build and maintain wind/solar. It doesn't help that on top of that low density, you have to build an excess of panels/wind turbines. Which has its own problems. Either too little or too much, you can never get intermittent sources to deliver exactly the right amount of juice.
Solar probably has the least impact of the lot, but obviously you need predictable sun. Would covering a desert with them work?
There's some concern considering how much raw material is needed to build the required supply. Just sticking them in Arizona (an uninhabited wasteland) and powering the entire country from there is impossible of course.
One more reason why the "greed is (always) good" mantra is the first thing that needs to die before humanity will ever make any progress worth making.
I don't blame people for only caring about their own well-being. They just follow incentives. It's like complaining about some shitty game that was designed to encourage intentionally killing yourself or something. Hate the game or the jerkoff that built it.

If only scientists were allowed to vote, we would probably already have those robot women and space colonies and super death rays we're always told about but never seem to see happen. That's a different universe though; you're still allowed to vote if you have zero curiosity about anything in this one.

I'm going on record that I hate humanity for its lack of curiosity, not its greed.
Not sure about that, say there's a new world war, many reactors located in densely populated areas (because of course this is where we build plants) get hit and boom. How much surface of unlivable-for-ages land and how many millions of dead and sooner-or-later dead people does that make ?
In the case of nuclear war, everyone involved being dead kind of makes the contamination overkill. A half-assed genocide where they bomb only plants would be a lousy strategy, since the country you attacked gets to live and the one that attacked gets to be wiped off the face of the earth.

Terrorists are of far greater concern. One of those things people don't know about is, the September 11th attacks... the nuclear power plant by New York was considered as a target. The higher ups decided against it, basically because "they didn't want things to get too crazy."

I don't know if that says anything about the human condition, or not.
We need Mr. Fusion now.
Real life fusion is basically igniting an artificial star in atmosphere, which seems to have a number of challenges. And still generates radioactive isotopes because you're still creating a neutron imbalance in the atoms you're transmuting.

Time scales put its deployment at maybe 60 (optimistic) to 100 years (realistic) from now. Long after carbon kills us all.

There are lots of scifi-type stuff you can imagine could be cool, though.

One observation is that the bulk of energy stars generate goes to heating up void. Go outside at night, look at the sky, that's the majority of useful work our own star is doing - 1/2500th of the pretty navigation aid for the 1 or 3 sentiment bastard alien races that can see it.

If we could magically snap our fingers and shut them down, and create artificial stars instead, that would extend the survivable span of time you could live in this universe.
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Re: Better Nuclear Reactors

Post by antron »

BryanM wrote: Real life fusion is basically igniting an artificial star in atmosphere, which seems to have a number of challenges. And still generates radioactive isotopes because you're still creating a neutron imbalance in the atoms you're transmuting.
but in the case of hydrogen fusion the isotopes have just a two year half life. think of it as a poisonous byproduct that magically becomes harmless in your lifetime. your offspring will not have to deal with it.
BryanM wrote:
Time scales put its deployment at maybe 60 (optimistic) to 100 years (realistic) from now. Long after carbon kills us all.
that's quite an overstatement. worst case scenario is nuclear war over the shift in resources due to rising sea levels. even that won't kill us all.
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Re: Better Nuclear Reactors

Post by Captain »

what we really need, is a way to store power.
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Re: Better Nuclear Reactors

Post by BryanM »

antron wrote:but in the case of hydrogen fusion the isotopes have just a two year half life.
Yeah I was off there; one of the fuels required itself is radioactive (Tritium, which has a 12 year half life. Which means it's really bad news, don't let it get inside your nose), the Helium-4 product itself is stable. We don't seriously know too much detail about what a working reactor would look like, since the extent of research on the matter currently is a successful picosecond fart or something.
what we really need, is a way to store power.
The electrons in a Tesla battery are around the size of a grain of sand.

There's quite a way to go for electron storage.

The helpful nerds at wikipedia maintain a page about potential future stuff.
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Re: Better Nuclear Reactors

Post by BulletMagnet »

BryanM wrote:I'm going on record that I hate humanity for its lack of curiosity, not its greed.
The latter is quite frequently the cause of the former: as the saying goes, it's nearly impossible to make someone realize something when his paycheck depends on his not realizing it.

For the record, I certainly wouldn't advocate relying exclusively (or even primarily) on pragmatism to move society forward, but once all limits are removed when it comes to the scope of "enlightened self-interest" in determining our course at large I'm afraid that it's no longer anything resembling enlightened.
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