The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[chempop]

rt shmups, compared to danmaku. Either it's poor reaction times or I'm just not versed enough in the style. Then again Psikyo is kind of a mongrel. I do want to clear A Psikyo game as it's one more step on the shmup journey.

I hear you, Psikyo games are relentless. Have you tried only getting 1-2 powerups, it keeps rank considerably lower and bullet speed in control. Those deaths with 5 bombs in stock are so degrading. If you are hellbent on a clear, I think Sengoku Ace or Gunbird are the easiest. I haven’t played Ace, but Gunbird is my only psikyo 1ALL so far (can get brutally close to 1945, but 8 stages FFS).

[Blinge]

Ah personally I find Gunbird harder, I have played it less overall but the bullet speed is consistently faster which I find hard to deal with, especially coupled with larger hitboxes. The later Gunbird bosses seem a lot harder than S1945's also, for the above reasons. I mean I'm still rekt by S1945's later stages but they seem more learnable to me.

[Patashu]

What's so strange about Ketsui patterns.

The stage 2 boss for example is simple. First attack is a spread of blue bullets with large gaps in between them and red aimed bullets. Then it starts some weird looking thing but all the blue bullets move around you and all you really do is not touch the very few red bullets aimed at you.

Then it fires an attack where you move between the lanes and an attack where the bullets home in on your position where you'll want to be high up the screen and then move down with it. First form dies. Second form is composed of three attacks; Red lines of bullets fired at you, then a set of blue walls that you herd and then finally the attack where it shoot mines that explode into red bullets that you then dodge by simply going through the gaps.

Now, none of this is even remotely gimmicky to me and I want to know what it is you think is gimmicky. I've played bosses where horizontal movement controls gets flipped, patterns that grow your hitbox to a much larger size, patterns where you have to follow a circle that moves around the screen in a fixed pattern that you must follow lest your character drowns, patterns where the background is a wavy curtain of strong red, yellow etc. colours, same colour as the bullets and when red bullets pass over red background (the background scrolls) you'll simply have to remember where the bullets be at.

I could go on. Ketsui is not gimmicky at all lol.

When I say gimmicky I mean gimmicky compared to other cave boss patterns.
Stage 3's boss is the best example.
The first phase is based around accelerating bullets that you have to kind of 'pre-dodge'. Not so bad so far, then...
Second phase has all these different kinds of patterns:
-One where you do no bullet weaving whatsoever, you just herd an aimed pattern in and out through a fixed pattern.
-One where you have to REALLY REALLY HAUL ASS to BARELY make it through these walls of bullets. This one I don't understand how to do -at all-, if you asked me to do a ketsui run right now I would bomb this the moment it came out because I don't understand it.
-One where bullets shoot out horizontal accelerating bullets - you have to simultaneously pre-dodge and make sure you're not about to be beaned by a blue bullet.

Then we reach the final attack - which makes you move in a really weird way to stay aligned in a gap between the red and blue streams. It's meant to be really hard to read, not hard to execute.

And all of this is done with a 2x2 hitbox and bullets that only hurt you every other frame - so a lot of the time even if you make an execution mistake that would kill you in any other Cave shmup, you'll just live anyway.

Then go watch some dodonpachi/doj boss patterns and you'll see the difference in what kind of boss they're trying to make and what kind of tools they use for it.

That's what I mean by gimmicky. If you know of a better word for it let me know.

[Bananamatic]

Second phase has all these different kinds of patterns:
-One where you do no bullet weaving whatsoever, you just herd an aimed pattern in and out through a fixed pattern.
-One where you have to REALLY REALLY HAUL ASS to BARELY make it through these walls of bullets. This one I don't understand how to do -at all-, if you asked me to do a ketsui run right now I would bomb this the moment it came out because I don't understand it.
-One where bullets shoot out horizontal accelerating bullets - you have to simultaneously pre-dodge and make sure you're not about to be beaned by a blue bullet.

90% of people make the second form too hard on themselves just by trying to target the core immediately and doing it overall wrong
lock one side and destroy the shield first, that both makes some of the patterns easier(and they get harder on the 2nd cycle), then just lock the center from the side and it dies in seconds(you can kill it before the blue wall attack happens for the 2nd time)
release lock to dodge the blue walls or just go through if needed, the gaps aren't that small, also dodge it higher up before they spread way too much

the 4th attack is dodged just by moving up a bit and then back down when it shoots if both shields are alive, it gets way harder when it loses one though

for the final form just forget about the pink bullets completely and closely follow the blue walls

[Lilium]

What's so strange about Ketsui patterns.
Then go watch some dodonpachi/doj boss patterns and you'll see the difference in what kind of boss they're trying to make and what kind of tools they use for it.

That's what I mean by gimmicky. If you know of a better word for it let me know.

I agree, the patterns are more straight forward usually than in DDP or DOJ. However that doesn't mean that the patterns here are gimmicky. Its just a matter of approaching them slightly different than you'd normally have to while what i usually associate with the term gimmicky patterns is forcing the player to deal with unique hardly ever seen before tricks. Ketsui i just find to have patterns like any other danmaku game. Its more similar to Mushihimesama Futari Maniac or Espgaluda II than it is to DDP/DOJ but its nothing particularly mindbending imo. But i don't think we should argue too much over semantics. You just used a word to describe the patterns that i interpreted that word as something different from what you meant

But yes. As Bananamatic said, there are approaches you'll want to apply. Where games like DDP and DOJ will have bosses that typically are more straight forward, Ketsui is like the forerunner of later-gen Cave games you could say where you need to figure out strategies on how to approach the patterns. With some replay watching and some practice, I'm sure you'll be able to handle the bosses in the first loop with little to no trouble

[ciox]

For the part where you have to "haul ass" just make sure you stop using lockshot to gain some speed and both ships can handle it just fine, I thought it was cool the game makes you do that.
IMO the only "gimmicky" thing about the game is when it uses gigantic bullets with tiny hitboxes just to confuse you, if you don't know about that it could confuse you more than your own small hitbox and the collision frames thing.

[ratikal]

...bullets that only hurt you every other frame...

I keep hearing this. Has anyone confirmed this to be true?

[ciox]

...bullets that only hurt you every other frame...

I keep hearing this. Has anyone confirmed this to be true?

It is confirmed in DOJ http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 04#p648604

[Patashu]

For the part where you have to "haul ass" just make sure you stop using lockshot to gain some speed and both ships can handle it just fine, I thought it was cool the game makes you do that.
IMO the only "gimmicky" thing about the game is when it uses gigantic bullets with tiny hitboxes just to confuse you, if you don't know about that it could confuse you more than your own small hitbox and the collision frames thing.

I must be stupid because whenever that attack comes up I swap to shot (with Panzer) and move as fast as I can and I only ever make it if I get lucky and the nearest exit is close enough before getting pushed to the back of the screen. I don't know how to describe what I'm doing wrong, I need to make a video of me failing it a lot and post it.

[Lilium]

Yes, that. By all means that. Comparing your own replays of you doing something wrong with someone's run doing it right can be a good way to figure out what you're doing wrong. And a good way for others to help you out.

[Jonst]

Fuckin' ketsui!!! So damn close, I can taste the clear... Actually, the problem is more with me than the game. Just needed to vent!

[LordHypnos]

Am I really alone in thinking that games where point blanking is encouraged should not have you die when you touch your enemy? It can be pretty obnoxious to try to get up real close, and then find yourself short a life. Psikyo knows what's up. In most of their games (especially later ones) you just lose a power up or one level of power for bumping into an enemy. Personally, my favorite approach is the Mars Matrix one where nothing bad happens at all. I think Samidare would be benefitted from letting you touch enemies with impunity. Also a boss practice mode.

[Some-Mist]

been back on the progear grinding game trying to hit the 2nd loop requirements since I keep missing it by a hair in my 1-all runs.

used save states for the first time in my life in MAME just to see what the 2nd loop was like, and was blown the eff away to find out that it's set up like a time trial - when you die your round restarts at the beginning of the level... essentially having to no life the entire 2nd loop.

so discouraging and demotivating... seriously insane.

[Blinge]

Bosses don't have checkpoints iirc.

[Some-Mist]

makes sense why people think it's so hard. didn't make it past the 2-1 boss so I have no idea if it checkpoints at all or not.

I mean god damn..

[Blinge]

Heh, the one time I reached the second loop in Progear was when i'd only just joined the forum and hadn't even looked at the high score boards yet. I didn't save an inp or screenshot as it wasn't important to me. I haven't looped the game since so i'm assuming that score was the highest I've ever got, but there's no real way of knowing =/

[Some-Mist]

prob in the 17-23m range, although it's hard to be sure since you coulda racked up the big points on 2-1. I usually get in the 12-17m range.

at least you've been able to loop it. I think I've 1-alled it 3-4 times and have either died or used too many bombs on my run to qualify for 2nd loop.

edit: oh.... and lets not even mention that if you 1-all it, it says 1-5 on the scoreboards...
I was severely disappointed that it doesn't say anything pertaining to a clear.

[mehguy]

Recca stage 2 boss. Nuff said.

[nasty_wolverine]

Recca stage 2 boss. Nuff said.

the boss is not that hard. the stage itself maybe harder. just gotta bomb (like every other YGW game)

[BareKnuckleRoo]

essentially having to no life the entire 2nd loop.

so discouraging and demotivating... seriously insane.

It's not that bad actually. Remember that the second loop increases the rate gems fall off the screen, meaning diamonds will vanish soon after they appear, making it much easier to cancel bullets by getting a diamond rank and holding down shot for gunner mode. You won't have the same issue as the first loop where you can actually reach the limit of the number of gems on-screen at once and prevent enemies from cancelling any more bullets into gems. What you can do is essentially play as a fast shot type (Bolt & Nail for instance), get a diamond rank, and hold down the shot button as long as possible, relying on the massive bullet cancelling that'll be happening naturally.

You also get 3 very, very long-lasting bombs per life. You don't have to no-miss the 2nd loop, you just have to no-miss up to each boss. I've gotten to the first boss without bombing in a few of my runs thanks to abuse of diamond cancels, so I'm sure you can manage it too. Really, a good first loop run can quite reasonably get 5+ lives in stock (optimally, max out your extra lives at 9 and go into the loop with 3 bombs, but this is super hard to do). One of the major challenges in the second loop is remembering to finally use up those bombs, as all you need to do to progress is make it to the boss. Once you reach the boss, even if you die, you can just start bombing it for safety and rely on your resources to save the day. Leaning the second loop is rough, but not impossibly so when you make sure to abuse the hell out of your enhanced 2nd loop cancelling capabilities thanks to how fast gems fall off-screen (making room for more bullets to be cancelled).

[BIL]

Recca stage 2 boss. Nuff said.

Gate (the huge stationary thing with a pair of laser feelers)? Drop a couple bombs on it, job done (even moreso than most Recca bosses). It'll only have enough HP to take a couple shots after that, just chuck them in along with the bombs.

If you get one ready in advance as the stage ends you you can nail it the instant it appears, then retreat to the sides while charging another (which will block the boss's bullets), then finish it off. Takes no time at all. Note you can connect with a bomb while the feelers are out, just edge in close as they move inward.

[Blinge]

Batrider. Fucking Bashinet, every fucking time.

[Strikers1945guy]

Batrider. Fucking Bashinet, every fucking time.

A good run in a Raizing game can go to shit SO FAST

[ciox]

Yeah, Batrider is especially bad at that since you can't extend past 3 lives and even so the rank you get for extending to the third life is huge and hard to get rid of.

[Blinge]

Also sucks when I wanna keep Car-Pet alive for two stages, I can't score well enough to get two extends and get her back in time for the next hidden boss.

Also by the time I reach bashi mk 2 my rank is through the roof and i can't kill his minions or ice-orb things before they hit me >=[

[LordHypnos]

tfw you somehow manage to forget your whole strategy and are back to square nothing on the second to last form of the second stage boss of Samidare

[S_Fang]

I got a lot of grievances about it:

1) I loathe the extremely important power-up pick-ups, with the speed one being the most fraudolent one among them. I understand the philosofy "Woe to the Losers (Vae Victis)" , but it becomes lame when you cannot regain the lost power-up, in addition to being slow like a flying sloth. Some old shmups like Alpha Mission II and Ghost Pilots are like that.

2) Difficult-to-see bullets, may because they have weak outlines or may because they conceal with the backgorund. Those suckers caused me a lot of deaths in Battle Baregga and Carrier Airwing.

3) Enemies from behind, especially the center-bottom. Is common sense that you need to be at the bottom of the screen to have enough time to destroy the enemies and avoiding the collision with them, but some suckers decide to get you from behind and its awful. It was very aggravating in Ghost Pilots, comined with the slow movements of the ship.

4) Lack of a visible hitbox in dodging shmups. I understand that not every shmups has blizzards of bullets, but when I have to dodge the attack patterns (the one with tight blank spots) I got lots of difficulties because of that. Unless the hitbox of the sprite is visible in some degree (e.g. cockpit; pilot; center of the ship; ecc.) or the game coerce you to dodge fast and wide attack patterns, then it becomes a nasty problem.

5) Trying to get in the Mushihimesama series. With the console versions being on X360 only (Japanese for the first, no less), the repsectable ports on iOS only and the unreliable emulation on MAME, the only title I can jump on are "Bug Panic" (picked my interest) and "Duel" , as a possessor of an Android Device.
But the games are not the only problem, as I devoted myself to find the Guidebooks only to be left with nothing but fatigue for the sleepless nights (not really healthy, I know), which is a pity because I adore HACCAN's artstyle.

[Yukemi-ZWY]

Lack of a visible hitbox in dodging shmups. I understand that not every shmups has blizzards of bullets, but when I have to dodge the attack patterns (the one with tight blank spots) I got lots of difficulties because of that.

I've experienced this very issue with Esprade and its weirdly placed hitboxes. I've seen pictures of where they're supposed to be, but while I'm playing the game I can't deal with shifting my trajectories accordingly and fail every time on tight patterns.
However, as long as said hitboxes are at the center of the sprite I can deal with them being invisible (I rarely look at my ship anyway).

[pokemon123]

why people seem to find daifukkatsu so easy(even when i'm using strong and know how hypers work) when I find it muuuuch harder than daioujou. The hitbox also feels much bigger to me.

[Bananamatic]

why people seem to find daifukkatsu so easy(even when i'm using strong and know how hypers work) when I find it muuuuch harder than daioujou. The hitbox also feels much bigger to me.

if you're playing on mame it has no slowdown and a lot of input lag
otjherwise no idea