XRGB-mini Framemeister

[TheShadowRunner]

Well wow, that was fast!
Got a reply from Micomsoft:
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We examine this function「RGBリミテッド」by the next update.
Thank you!
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Crossing fingers...

[Thomago]

Long-time forum dwellers probably know that I'm constantly b*tching about the Framemeister's component input. Well, after the whole discussion about RGB full/limited etc. a took another look at the component input and found out that, while indeed atrocious in HDMI mode (crushed blacks/whites and heavy flickering), in DVI mode the quality is quite nice - perhabs not as good as in RGB mode, but it's passable.

You might say now: "Easy, in HDMI mode the Framemeister outputs YPbPr for component sources, in DVI mode RGB." However even if I force RGB output (and change sources after that / reboot the Mini, just in case it needs a wake-up call), there is no change.

So, that's all - the Framemeister's component input just doesn't work as intended/expected; it isn't fundamentally bad.

@TheShadowRunner: You don't possibly know which other features/fixes the next update brings?

[Elrinth]

Seems 1.11 is available, anyone know what's new in this version?
I have been using 1.10 for quite awhile now.

[eightbitminiboss]

Seems 1.11 is available, anyone know what's new in this version?
I have been using 1.10 for quite awhile not.

It's been available for a while.

It adds the Korean language to the system menus and some improvement with Classic Mode.

[Dobiqwolf]

@TheShadowRunner and most people actively posting there:
After reading the problem you are encountering with your TV I was wandering why most of you play on TVs and not monitors?
I use a monitor with no lag for my gaming and the mini is hooked up on the HDMI (I could use DVI but did not see the point).

[MMJuno]

@TheShadowRunner and most people actively posting there:
After reading the problem you are encountering with your TV I was wandering why most of you play on TVs and not monitors?
I use a monitor with no lag for my gaming and the mini is hooked up on the HDMI (I could use DVI but did not see the point).

While I can't speak for everyone, in my case, it comes down to the difference between relaxing on the couch with a 55" TV, or sitting at a desk in front of a monitor.

[TheShadowRunner]

@TheShadowRunner: You don't possibly know which other features/fixes the next update brings?

I've no clue at all. I'm happy enough they'll look at the RGB full/limited case

While I can't speak for everyone, in my case, it comes down to the difference between relaxing on the couch with a 55" TV, or sitting at a desk in front of a monitor.

QFT.

[Joelepain]

So assuming the Mini always outputs RGB full when it's outputting RGB, I don't understand why the SFC looks alright.

I think the mini even has problems with range on its input too.
For example I take my pal rgb modded n64. If I launch the PAL SuperMario64 rom, the black levels are right. If I launch the NTSC SuperMario64 rom, the blacks are washout.
So same console, same cable, same game, mini output forced to RGB, and you have different results.
Could be the console video amp that output different level depending of the region, but that would be very surprising.

I also can't comprehend why the Mini outputs RGB full when the connected display is only compatible with RGB limited.

Simply because this RGB range problem has been a complete mess since the begining. It's not a problem with just the xrgb mini. Last gen consoles, pc graphic card drivers, WiiU, TV inputs, PC monitor inputs... it's the most absurd thing of video history.

[TheShadowRunner]

I think the mini even has problems with range on its input too.
For example I take my pal rgb modded n64. If I launch the PAL SuperMario64 rom, the black levels are right. If I launch the NTSC SuperMario64 rom, the blacks are washout.
So same console, same cable, same game, mini output forced to RGB, and you have different results.
Could be the console video amp that output different level depending of the region, but that would be very surprising.

An interesting case indeed.
Have you tried to bypass the Mini (connect N64 directly to display)? Obviously if it does the same without the Mini, it isn't the culprit
If the output without the Mini is identical (between both roms) though, what about if you use the Composite or S-Video intputs on the Mini instead of RGB?

I also can't comprehend why the Mini outputs RGB full when the connected display is only compatible with RGB limited.

Simply because this RGB range problem has been a complete mess since the begining. It's not a problem with just the xrgb mini. Last gen consoles, pc graphic card drivers, WiiU, TV inputs, PC monitor inputs... it's the most absurd thing of video history.

Yes different usage (Video/PC) via the same HDMI interface sure wasn't the brightest idea. Then again it's so convenient to use the same 'universal' connector for everthing..

[12345]

So assuming the Mini always outputs RGB full when it's outputting RGB, I don't understand why the SFC looks alright.

I think the mini even has problems with range on its input too.
For example I take my pal rgb modded n64. If I launch the PAL SuperMario64 rom, the black levels are right. If I launch the NTSC SuperMario64 rom, the blacks are washout.
So same console, same cable, same game, mini output forced to RGB, and you have different results.
Could be the console video amp that output different level depending of the region, but that would be very surprising.

I also can't comprehend why the Mini outputs RGB full when the connected display is only compatible with RGB limited.

Simply because this RGB range problem has been a complete mess since the begining. It's not a problem with just the xrgb mini. Last gen consoles, pc graphic card drivers, WiiU, TV inputs, PC monitor inputs... it's the most absurd thing of video history.

From my experience I would highly recommend sticking to EITHER PAL OR NTSC (preferably NTSC). With the N64 there are definitely some settings which need to be adjusted on the framemeister, for example the BLACK setting. You can't expect the same from both formats, even on RGB.

[Joelepain]

From my experience I would highly recommend sticking to EITHER PAL OR NTSC (preferably NTSC). With the N64 there are definitely some settings which need to be adjusted on the framemeister, for example the BLACK setting. You can't expect the same from both formats, even on RGB.

Yes but what I meant is: unless someone analize the signal comming from the console, or test directly connected on a CRT, it could be either the console fault, or the xrgb fault.
It could be very surprising but not impossible that it's the console fault because it's the same DAC/video amp after all.
We already know that the mini has some range problem on its component input, and some range/format problems on its output. So one more problem or one less problem is not very surprising...

[keropi]

Can someone help me with the zoom levels ?
I have a 720p screen (basically a 1680x1050 monitor with HDMI input that also understands 288/480/720p 50/60hz inputs directly - no 1080 resolutions) and I am puzzled on how to make games occupy more screen space.

Here is an example, an amiga connected to the RGB port and the mini outputs a 720p/50hz signal :



what setting do I need to change to zoom it but still have the whole game screen visible? as per the wiki recommendation I changed the output to 576p/50hz but I still can't make it bigger, it's the same size...
Is there a way to achieve this or do I need a 1080p monitor?

also on a relevant question, where can I read of what all these zoom options do and how to use them effectively?
TIA for any help!

[austin532]

So it seems that if you turn on the PS2 first and then turn on the Mini it will output in YCBCR. One less step involved if you want to mini to output YCBCR instead or RGB.

Also I have a question about the Sync Mode. Whenever I turn it off the screen will shift for a slight second whenever the screen is moving in one direction. This is most noticeable on on 2D side scrollers when moving to the right (or left). I've tried adjusting the sync level but no luck. The reason why I want sync mode off is because it gives a much smoother transition whenever the signal changes as the input menu doesn't pop up everytime.

Any suggestions?

[Fudoh]

Whenever I turn it off the screen will shift for a slight second

do you mean framerate jumps ?

When you disable the v-sync option, the Mini does a framerate conversion unless your source is spot on 59.94Hz (which hardly anything is). You also get increased lag. Using a framerate conversion, smooth scrolling is out of the question.

[Toxi]

Hi guys,

I am an new owner of the Xrgb Mini since a couple of days and overall pretty happy so far. I plugged it to a Panasonic 50" LCD TV and the image quality especially of the Genesis 2 is amazing .

I have one problem though: My PAL SNES (modded with a 50/60Hz switch) and connected with an RGB cable (I guess this is a Wii RGB cable) doesn't work. In 50Hz mode, I get a picture for five seconds that gets darker every second until it is completely black. In 60Hz mode I get a black/white picture with lots of interference. I tested another RGB cable and different PAL and NTSC games but nothing seems to work. Both RGB cables work fine on my PAL Gamecube. When connected with a composite cable it works but obviously looks ugly.

Does anyone have an idea what could be the reason for this?


Thanks, Carsten

[Fudoh]

RGB cables that work on PAL Cubes only work on NTSC SNES systems. PAL SNES RGB cables are different (no capacitors).

[Xyga]

PAL SNES RGB cables are the worst thing ever and don't work with anything.

Fixed.

[Toxi]

Thanks a lot! Just bought one from Retro Gaming Cables.

@Fudoh: Your website was extremely helpful already.

Cheers, C

[austin532]

Whenever I turn it off the screen will shift for a slight second

do you mean framerate jumps ?

When you disable the v-sync option, the Mini does a framerate conversion unless your source is spot on 59.94Hz (which hardly anything is). You also get increased lag. Using a framerate conversion, smooth scrolling is out of the question.

Yes. that's probably what's happening. Whenever I move right the screen will slightly shift left for a split second or if I move left it will shift right. The same if moving down the screen will shift up and moving up will cause it to shift down.

What I mean by not having a smooth transition is when booting up a game the TV's on screen display will come up several times and will even sometimes lose a signal causing me to have to either switch inputs or turn off and then turn on the mini. This also happens sometimes on some games during the opening intro or certain sections of the game were it switches to a behind the scenes or music video. With Auto Sync (or V-Sync) off, I don't experience any of those problems except for the shifting one mentioned above.

[BuckoA51]

what setting do I need to change to zoom it but still have the whole game screen visible?

You can't at 576p/50hz. Zooming on the Mini is pretty poor even with 240p signals. For PAL consoles especially the Amiga I much prefer the XRGB3/DVDO combination as you can zoom out any underscan on the Amiga too. If you're lucky you can use some of the picture zoom controls on your TV to enlarge the image.

[Smashbro29]

Long-time forum dwellers probably know that I'm constantly b*tching about the Framemeister's component input. Well, after the whole discussion about RGB full/limited etc. a took another look at the component input and found out that, while indeed atrocious in HDMI mode (crushed blacks/whites and heavy flickering), in DVI mode the quality is quite nice - perhabs not as good as in RGB mode, but it's passable.

You might say now: "Easy, in HDMI mode the Framemeister outputs YPbPr for component sources, in DVI mode RGB." However even if I force RGB output (and change sources after that / reboot the Mini, just in case it needs a wake-up call), there is no change.

So, that's all - the Framemeister's component input just doesn't work as intended/expected; it isn't fundamentally bad.

@TheShadowRunner: You don't possibly know which other features/fixes the next update brings?

I have long since given up on it, I'm just going to convert all my component signals to an RGB one so they'll work properly.

[marqs]

I also can't comprehend why the Mini outputs RGB full when the connected display is only compatible with RGB limited.

Simply because this RGB range problem has been a complete mess since the begining. It's not a problem with just the xrgb mini. Last gen consoles, pc graphic card drivers, WiiU, TV inputs, PC monitor inputs... it's the most absurd thing of video history.

Yeah, and don't forget overscan. I've fought with those since my first HDMI-enabled projector 10 years back - these remnants from analog time should never have made their way into HDMI spec... Even though I've learned how to fix these during the years, Mini doesn't cease to amaze as the output range depends on not only of the input source, but also on the video mode of a single source.

[marqs]

There is no such thing as a limited range analog signal. The concept is ridiculous!

but there's the concept of those 7.5 IRE offsets used for certain NTSC signals in analogue video. This translates quite nicely to the 0-16 luminance area in digital domain.

That's true, North American NTSC did differentiate between blank and black. This was because the early TVs were so crap, they didn't have active blanking in the video amplifier. They relied on the blanking space in the video signal to unbias the picture tube grid so you didn't see the retrace lines. As TVs got better (transistors were invented) this became unnecessary. No other video standard includes this black -> blank gap. None of the video encoders found in game consoles feature it either.

I have a faint memory that switching a PAL Xbox1 bios into NTSC mode slightly increased the luminance of black.

[keropi]

what setting do I need to change to zoom it but still have the whole game screen visible?

You can't at 576p/50hz. Zooming on the Mini is pretty poor even with 240p signals. For PAL consoles especially the Amiga I much prefer the XRGB3/DVDO combination as you can zoom out any underscan on the Amiga too. If you're lucky you can use some of the picture zoom controls on your TV to enlarge the image.

thanks for the help, it seems I'll have to settle with this atm

[Domino]

Very stupid thing to ask how but how does the Framemeister handles NES/FC Composite Video?

Yes, I am aware it will have them rainbows and RGB is better but hopefully it could do a hell a lot better job than running NES/FC Composite to a regular LCD/Plasma. In matter of fact I think it is the worse system to play on a flat screen directly.

[eightbitminiboss]

Very stupid thing to ask how but how does the Framemeister handles NES/FC Composite Video?

Yes, I am aware it will have them rainbows and RGB is better but hopefully it could do a hell a lot better job than running NES/FC Composite to a regular LCD/Plasma. In matter of fact I think it is the worse system to play on a flat screen directly.

Not that great to be honest.

[Domino]

Not that great to be honest.

Of course, but I wonder how does the Framemeister handle movement when running the NES/FC Composite? My issue is when I hook up the NES/FC via Composite to a flat screen when the game moves it is horrible.

[NightSprinter]

I would venture as far as to say it seems to lack a comb filter. Why would a high-end device lack that?

[scottmog]

Not that great to be honest.

Of course, but I wonder how does the Framemeister handle movement when running the NES/FC Composite? My issue is when I hook up the NES/FC via Composite to a flat screen when the game moves it is horrible.

For me there was quite a difference when hooking my nes straight to an LED and then hooking it to that same LED via framemeister composite. Either way i will be doing the RGB mod on my nes this month.

[eightbitminiboss]

I actually have a shot of it running through a separate comb filter (Kramer-FC10D) then connected to the Framemeister.

Not much has improved.



It's been months since I took these screenshots so I don't remember all the details, but on composite without the comb filter, there was definitely dot crawl exactly how you would see it when connected directly to the television.