How DID the first Raiden do so well?

[trap15]

Bzzt, wrong answer.

[Skyknight]

Looking at the interview at Shmuplations, it seems Seibu really only expected it to be an interim measure/potboiler to help recoup the losses from Dynamite Duke (in fact, with the allotted budget, a vertical shmup was all they could really do!). So they wouldn't have been terribly pushy about it. Nor, it seems, was it an instant hit to begin with; at least in Japan, it was actually a sleeper.

Although one element did catch my eye in that interview--Seibu decided to make absolutely sure all the weapons were viable, without any extraneous Awesome-Yet-Impractical things (I believe someone mentioned Twin Cobra only having one weapon worth the candle? I'm guessing it wasn't the four-way...). So I wonder if their desire to avoid needless experimentation with mechanics left them free to concentrate more on level design...

(And yes, in the interview, it turns out Twin Cobra really was Seibu's main research source for making a shmup that would at least break even.)

[EmperorIng]

Agreed. Raiden's virtue is cutting away the fat. No fake weapon variety or gimmicks to drag things down. Bosses are better than in other verts. The game feels fine-tuned.

Again, I don't think Raiden is the top-level shmup (it was improved upon in every way by its sequel), but playing other games contemporaneous first, and then Raiden afterward makes me appreciate how no-nonsense it is, in a way that its competitors are not.

EDIT: I should mention that I am talking about/playing the game with checkpoints off. I think this was the default in the US? Anyhow, it is the only way to play (later games in the series ditch checkpoints as well). Twin Cobra is better than Kyuukyoku Tiger for that reason as well.

EDIT: Just played a bit of Raiden based off this topic. Bosses are not a "bit" better, they're leagues better. Toaplan bosses pre-90s are glorified mid-bosses. Raiden's are visually interesting and have multiple attack waves. This is improvement and progression. Raiden's stages in general feel more interesting with more unique enemies (in addition to the heli and tank spam) to mark each level.

[Blackbird]

I do think sound was a significant factor in it's success. In my opinion, Raiden had a much better soundtrack than many games that came before it. Just considering pre-1990 shmups, the only ones that are really in the same league are the Konami games, Dragon Saber, early Technosoft, and maybe a few others? It's a pretty short list. The sound effects are pretty nice, too. You get a nice deep bass rumble when you drop a bomb, and the shot sfx are mostly unobtrusive.

If I had to pick just one track to represent all of shmupdom, it would probably be Gallantry.

[Furry Fox Jet Pilot]

I do think sound was a significant factor in it's success. In my opinion, Raiden had a much better soundtrack than many games that came before it. Just considering pre-1990 shmups, the only ones that are really in the same league are the Konami games, Dragon Saber, early Technosoft, and maybe a few others? It's a pretty short list. The sound effects are pretty nice, too. You get a nice deep bass rumble when you drop a bomb, and the shot sfx are mostly unobtrusive.

If I had to pick just one track to represent all of shmupdom, it would probably be Gallantry.

No truer words were ever spoken! The only other games from 1990 that had soundtracks anywhere near the quality of Raiden were Gun Frontier and Ashura Blaster.

[emphatic]

So, the answer is really long boss fights? I guess Seibu like their bosses so much that they used the exact same bosses for Raiden II, Raiden III etc.

[EmperorIng]

Raiden 1's bossfights are long? Definitely not compared to Toaplan bosses especially in their early games, which drag on and on with one attack pattern, maybe two if they felt generous. Raiden 1's bosses are faster-paced and have better (read: more interesting) patterns, and generally better visual design than "Tank with a spinny thing on it" (Raiden reserves those home-runs for regular enemies).

And hey, that spider tank thing is pretty awesome.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Early Toaplan bosses generally time out. Not that I'm daft enough to test them all because usually you either have the firepower to bring them down or you die.

As for music, Raiden stage 2 is directly lifted from Flying Shark stage 2.

Raiden is great and better than a lot of shmups from around that time. Just not Flying Shark/Twin Cobra/Truxton.

[Kollision]

Both Flying Shark and Fire Shark are overrated.
Twin Cobra is on par with Raiden, but I agree with the guy who said only 1/3 or 1/4 of Twin Cobra's weapons are actually useful.

[trap15]

Both Flying Shark and Fire Shark are overrated.

Words more deserving of fighting were ne'er spoken.

[Kollision]

come out and play

[antron]

Both Flying Shark and Fire Shark are overrated.
Twin Cobra is on par with Raiden, but I agree with the guy who said only 1/3 or 1/4 of Twin Cobra's weapons are actually useful.

I assume you mean the Red is worth using and maybe Blue?
On second thought Blue can be quite nice for popcorn filled screens.

[trap15]

Blue is by far the best in Kyuukyoku Tiger. Red is ok. Green and yellow are garbage.

[Despatche]

this thread is why i despise bandwagons. the best part is that i actually like raiden a lot.

So, the question is, if it was so un-original, how DID it outdo its Toaplan predecessors the way it did?

sadly, game design has absolutely nothing to do with this. raiden's entire success outside of japan is owed to strong marketing by fabtek, i think the story is that they built up a base of trust even before raiden or something

the comparison to threes/2048 is REALLY accurate and it happens to so many games

Hellfire, Twin Hawk, and Zero Wing totally blow Raiden out of the water. {[/sarcasm]}

hellfire and daisenpuu definitely do. zero wing is ok but it feels like they didn't bother to refine it much before releasing it

I've heard some ridiculous things, but come on, let's have some standards. Seibu, unlike most early Toaplan games, was able to have flying and ground enemies in the same game!

oh look, more silly bandwagoning. the only game that actually has one enemy type like that is daisenpuu, which was a big design choice along with all of its other crazy design choices. even out zone and fixeight have some aerial enemies, mostly bosses though

Capcom's US advertising flyer for Dimahoo actually namedrops Raiden, likely because it's the STG that operators were most familiar with and it would have been the easiest way of explaining to them what the game is like.

what had been referred to as toaplan-ryuu became raiden-ryuu. japan liked it because for them it was the second coming of twin cobra which was the second coming of xevious (read: they actually cared about the game)

Truxton has some groovy colors, but Raiden plays 1,000x better and doesn't inundate you with worthless speed up icons and random powerups.

this is not how tatsujin even remotely works

You'd have to be a real fanatic to play Toaplan games for score. And not in any complimentary sense.

says the guy swearing by raiden, a series that is as brutal to play for score as the most brutal of toaplan games (same! same! same!)

Although one element did catch my eye in that interview--Seibu decided to make absolutely sure all the weapons were viable, without any extraneous Awesome-Yet-Impractical things (I believe someone mentioned Twin Cobra only having one weapon worth the candle? I'm guessing it wasn't the four-way...). So I wonder if their desire to avoid needless experimentation with mechanics left them free to concentrate more on level design...

and they completely failed because the only usable weapons in the entire series are vulcan/nuclear. raiden iii is the only game that changes this and only due to a dumb bug that causes radar missiles to do more damage than nuclear (they're supposed to be between homing and nuclear)

I should mention that I am talking about/playing the game with checkpoints off. I think this was the default in the US? Anyhow, it is the only way to play (later games in the series ditch checkpoints as well). Twin Cobra is better than Kyuukyoku Tiger for that reason as well.

the way twin cobra and raiden do no checkpoints makes them much worse, not better

In my opinion, Raiden had a much better soundtrack than many games that came before it.

pretty much every other game around that time had better and more complete soundtracks. even games with incomplete soundtracks like act-fancer still have better actual music, and i like raiden music

Raiden 1's bosses are faster-paced and have better (read: more interesting) patterns, and generally better visual design than "Tank with a spinny thing on it" (Raiden reserves those home-runs for regular enemies).

the entire point of surviving raiden is that you quickkill bosses so those patterns don't absolutely destroy you time and time again. it's like every boss is gradius iii boss 3 in disguise

this is all kinda like those people who swear that fc ninja ryukenden is really hard and that md shadow dancer is really easy, when in reality it's exactly the opposite

[trap15]

^ well said

[EmperorIng]

I disagree.

hellfire and daisenpuu definitely do.

No. Hellfire's tortuously long levels and uninspired shooting do not overtake Raiden. Daisenpuu is plain, very plain. Like an update of Tiger Heli. Daisenpuu may be better than what came before it, but Toaplan had a ways to go before their games got far better.

oh look, more silly bandwagoning. the only game that actually has one enemy type like that is daisenpuu, which was a big design choice along with all of its other crazy design choices. even out zone and fixeight have some aerial enemies, mostly bosses though

I didn't know one of early Toaplan's laudable features was enemy variety. Neither is Raiden's, but I don't want to spoil my joke.

this is not how tatsujin even remotely works

Tatsujin remotely works as is, so this is accurate.

says the guy swearing by raiden, a series that is as brutal to play for score as the most brutal of toaplan games (same! same! same!)

Whoever said I'd play Raiden for score? Score is merely an indicative for me of clearing games like this. There are no meaningful scoring mechanics in any of these games. It's just "how long can you survive." Trying to conflate stupid bonus items as some form of scoring system is a fool's errand. You play a Cave game "for score." You play a Takumi game "for score." Raiden? Toaplan? You just try to not die. Raiden is a better "try not to die" game than Toaplan games.

the way twin cobra and raiden do no checkpoints makes them much worse, not better

Outside of rare instances, checkpoints suck. This is definitely the case in both games. Pure torture that adds nothing to the experience other than more frustration. The only company that ever made checkpoints bearable was Konami; it only handicapped Toaplan's games and their many many imitators.

the entire point of surviving raiden is that you quickkill bosses so those patterns don't absolutely destroy you time and time again. it's like every boss is gradius iii boss 3 in disguise

And during that quick-kill time, they still are vastly more interesting than any toaplan boss contemporaneous of Raiden or before it. The bosses are just better.

[jepjepjep]

"Which game is better" is entirely subjective. I don't think it makes sense to claim superiority in such a strong manner. I'm personally in the Toaplan camp if I had to choose but I think Raiden/RII are great too. I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that the Toaplan music wasn't good. I think it's some of the best chiptune music. Hishouzama, Kyokyuku Tiger, Tatsujin, Same!Same!Same! & Outzone all have incredible soundtracks.

As far as the checkpoints, that's part of the game design. Here's part of a great interview with Uemura of Toaplan, thanks to Gaijinpunch for the translation:

VHS: Now that you mention it, most overseas games have continues which allow you to pick up right where you left off: Raiden, for example.

Uemura: The shooting game I envisioned is over when you don't return to a checkpoint after a miss because you are no longer creating a pattern.

VHS: There's also the notion that if you die somewhere that should be the end.

Uemura: There's always a recovery pattern in the games I make. Even if your weapons go to zero, you can always recover.

Didn't the Japanese versions of Raiden have checkpoints anyway? I honestly can't see how you could like Raiden and not like Kyokyuku Tiger or vice versa. They're so similar and both are really high quality.

Daisenpuu is plain, very plain. Like an update of Tiger Heli. Daisenpuu may be better than what came before it, but Toaplan had a ways to go before their games got far better.

I respectfully disagree with this. I think their best stuff came before. Top four Toaplan for me is Truxton, Kyukyoku Tiger, Sky Shark & Outzone. Batsugun is excellent too, but plays so differently it's almost like it's own thing. Those early games had such a good "flow" to the gameplay. The way that the waves of enemies come in and the music, just really great stuff! Same!Same!Same! is completely awesome too, it just has such a steep learning curve, it's like Twin Cobra on steroids.

[Mills]

No great mystery about the popularity of RAIDEN, it was simply the MOST accessible shump title of it's time.
I first noticed this game in almost every local Off-Licence shop, Library, Fish & Chip shop, in-one-town weeks before I saw it appeared in the Arcades. Also the local non-arcade sites where this game could be played were offering cash prizes from £20-£50 on the first person to 1CC on one game, which meant that you had the school kids jumping on it.
Whatever SEIBU KAIHATSU had done in distributing this game everywhere when more expensive dedicated jamma title from likes of TOAPLAN where only within reach of being played at dedicated arcade sites, it clearly helped RAIDEN gain popularity of accessible play.

[Despatche]

"disagree", huh?

No. Hellfire's tortuously long levels and uninspired shooting do not overtake Raiden. Daisenpuu is plain, very plain. Like an update of Tiger Heli. Daisenpuu may be better than what came before it, but Toaplan had a ways to go before their games got far better.

"torturously long levels and uninspired shooting" is the perfect description for raiden (protip: i like raiden a lot)

tiger-heli? holy shit it's like you've never heard of hi sho zame. anyway daisenpuu is generally considered one of toaplan's worst games (a lie itself) and many of those same people believe that toaplan got generally worse as time went on (more so up for debate)

I didn't know one of early Toaplan's laudable features was enemy variety. Neither is Raiden's, but I don't want to spoil my joke.

...you honestly didn't know? you do realize this proves my point so hard, right? you need to sit down and actually play some games instead of worshiping raiden as the god it most certainly isn't. i sincerely doubt you've played ANY game listed in this thread so far besides raiden

Tatsujin remotely works as is, so this is accurate.

you absolutely need to play tatsujin above all else, and you need to play it correctly. the game is pretty darned well-designed; you're actually expected to change weapons sometimes!

Whoever said I'd play Raiden for score? Score is merely an indicative for me of clearing games like this. There are no meaningful scoring mechanics in any of these games. It's just "how long can you survive." Trying to conflate stupid bonus items as some form of scoring system is a fool's errand. You play a Cave game "for score." You play a Takumi game "for score." Raiden? Toaplan? You just try to not die. Raiden is a better "try not to die" game than Toaplan games.

you can complain about not having a complicated scoring system to deal with all you want, but there's a lot more to these kinds of statements than that

what is here is this desire to keep the concept of "scoring" away from "the game" as much as possible is kinda why scoring died in the first place. there's no benefit from it and it only hurts your enjoyment of any game so please stop doing it

Outside of rare instances, checkpoints suck. This is definitely the case in both games. Pure torture that adds nothing to the experience other than more frustration. The only company that ever made checkpoints bearable was Konami; it only handicapped Toaplan's games and their many many imitators.

funny how you praise konami, the company that made mother fucking gradius, the series responsible for the so-called checkpoint-based "gradius syndrome"

the reason why not having checkpoints sucks is because you can actually balance around them, and no i am not saying they always were balanced properly. such proper balance is as simple as balancing those specific setpieces properly, but you can't really balance around no checkpoints except for removing all penalty for dying or making the game hilariously easy no matter what

And during that quick-kill time, they still are vastly more interesting than any toaplan boss contemporaneous of Raiden or before it. The bosses are just better.

it's kinda hard for a boss to be better if it's killed so fast that it can't do anything, especially when (again) said boss will not really let you fight it another way

sir, you are a walking contradiction. putting the facts behind this "debate" aside, nearly everything you've said conflicts with itself

Didn't the Japanese versions of Raiden have checkpoints anyway? I honestly can't see how you could like Raiden and not like Kyokyuku Tiger or vice versa. They're so similar and both are really high quality.

it's... strange. it seems there are two versions floating around, and i think quite a few countries got both. i don't know how raiden ii works, but at the very least this is probably why raiden project allows you to toggle checkpoints

No great mystery about the popularity of RAIDEN, it was simply the MOST accessible shump title of it's time.

pretty much. the marketers putting the damned thing everywhere combining with the game's overall popularity caused a giant feedback loop that lead to what may as well be a cult

[Squire Grooktook]

and many of those same people believe that toaplan got generally worse as time went on (more so up for debate)

I like Dogyuun and V-Five a lot.

[trap15]

I think I consider those two their worst, though maybe swap V-V with Vimana. Those are definitely bottom 3, in my opinion.

Dogyuun has the constant issue of feeling underpowered. The tractor-beam mechanic is unsatisfying, annoying, and exploitable. The weapons all suck. Upsides are it's fucking gorgeous and has an amazing soundtrack.

V-V has the awful Slap Fight powerup system that doesn't work well. The scoring system makes me froth due to how extraordinarily all-or-nothing it is. It's super slow and boring, causing not-falling-asleep to be the hardest part about the first loop. Upsides are an amazing soundtrack and pretty cool set-pieces and graphics.

Vimana is just awful. Charge shot mechanic is annoying and weak, autofire utterly breaks everything. Music is great, as usual. Graphics are just ok though. Stage design is really boring and slow.

[Squire Grooktook]

Never really got the under-powered system with Dogyuun. I mostly stuck with blue laser, but it seemed to do a decent job with most everything in the game.

[Pretas]

Dogyuun has the constant issue of feeling underpowered.

It's because you're supposed to put in a second credit and dock with the 2P ship. Pretty crafty revenue boosting scheme.

V-V has the awful Slap Fight powerup system that doesn't work well.

It works fine, but Grind Stormer exists for the likes of you.

[Doctor Butler]

It's a mystery to some of you why it did so well, but I'm glad it started a legacy that doesn't look like it's going to die out anytime soon. Say what you want about the first Raiden compared to other games, but once 1994 came around, Raiden DX rendered all other games mentioned in this thread completely obsolete.

Nah, the Fighters series is Raiden's best.

[EmperorIng]

I am not speaking contradictions. You are just losing your shit. Example:

...you honestly didn't know? you do realize this proves my point so hard, right? you need to sit down and actually play some games instead of worshiping raiden as the god it most certainly isn't. i sincerely doubt you've played ANY game listed in this thread so far besides raiden

Here's where you project. I mentioned that Raiden II improves upon Raiden in every conceivable way. I've not made Raiden 1 out to be some shmup classic, even if I think it is a good, or very good game. If we are talking contemporaneous, I am arguing it's better than the games around it, and the games that inspired it. That's it, and nothing more. Apparently this quotidian statement is causing some real emotional trauma, especially when I joke about a lack of variety in Toaplan enemy designs. I thought people liked the straight-up military theme.

you absolutely need to play tatsujin above all else, and you need to play it correctly. the game is pretty darned well-designed; you're actually expected to change weapons sometimes!

Maybe if there was a hack that standardized item drops and removed checkpoints. As it stands, I cannot stand Tatsujin. For me the game feels sloppy. Too many speed-up icons and you are clumsily zipping about everywhere, and because if I recall, there's not a set sequence of item drops, you are left with a lot of worthless icons floating around that could spell your doom if you collect them. It has a good soundtrack and groovy graphics though.

The only big Toaplan game I haven't played is Hishouzame. I know it gets a lot of praise here but I've only ever watched videos and didn't seem appealing. At least in comparison to Fire Shark. It might be worth checking out.

what is here is this desire to keep the concept of "scoring" away from "the game" as much as possible is kinda why scoring died in the first place. there's no benefit from it and it only hurts your enjoyment of any game so please stop doing it

If a scoring system does not meaningfully interact with the game, then I do in fact ignore it. Random bonus icons is not a scoring system. Raiden Fighters Jet, Takumi games, even Raizing games have more meaningful scoring systems that force you to think outside of the box and come with their own quirks, strengths, and weaknesses. Toaplan and early Seibu games don't. They are not the focus and are thus not worth deep consideration.

funny how you praise konami, the company that made mother fucking gradius, the series responsible for the so-called checkpoint-based "gradius syndrome"

It's pretty faint praise, considering it only really worked for two, maybe three Konami games (and the rest of the time it was a chore). Even the best practitioners of checkpoints couldn't make it consistently enjoyable, but checkpoints in Gradius 1 and 2 are at least mostly well-thought-out, imo.

but you can't really balance around no checkpoints except for removing all penalty for dying or making the game hilariously easy no matter what

This statement is pure bull. Play any Psikyo game. Play any Takumi game. Play any Raiden Fighters game. They certainly did not remove the penalty for dying (in RF there aren't even extends), and are definitely not "hilariously easy." Shmups from the 90s on were more than capable of balancing the game without relying on an outdated mechanic that did more harm than good.

Didn't the Japanese versions of Raiden have checkpoints anyway? I honestly can't see how you could like Raiden and not like Kyokyuku Tiger or vice versa. They're so similar and both are really high quality

I like Twin Cobra actually. I like Raiden 1 more comparatively, since it takes Twin Cobra about 3 levels before it gets exciting, and it takes Raiden 1 only 2 levels to get there.

Dogyuun has the constant issue of feeling underpowered. The tractor-beam mechanic is unsatisfying, annoying, and exploitable. The weapons all suck. Upsides are it's fucking gorgeous and has an amazing soundtrack.

Dogyuun was a step in the right direction at least in terms of removing the obscenely long chain of getting powerups to be halfway decent at survival. That's an annoyance that a number of their games could have done without, imo.

I agree that it feels sloppy, but I enjoy the game. It shows some real creativity in the boss fights; I think Toaplan was really starting to get ambitious with boss design at this point. Even if their later games are not all of the same quality, Dogyuun, Tatsujin Oh, and Batsugun have some very fun and challenging bosses, both visually and mechanically.

[Squire Grooktook]

and the Gradius 1 and 2 are at least mostly well-thought-out, imo.

Crystal Stage and last stage opening say hi.

Not to mention the boss rush takes eons with a pea shooter.

Otherwise they are fun though.

I agree that it feels sloppy, but I enjoy the game. It shows some real creativity in the boss fights; I think Toaplan was really starting to get ambitious with boss design at this point. Even if their later games are not all of the same quality, Dogyuun, Tatsujin Oh, and Batsugun have some very fun and challenging bosses, both visually and mechanically.

Agreed, the boss fights in Dogyuun are amazing. I also love zipping around with the speed up power. It's like the precursor to Abnormal Reco (best character ever).

[EmperorIng]

Ha ha, mostly! Crystal stage is a real bitch.

Dogyuun bosses are crazy. Boomerang mechs, gundam mechs, birds (well that's a midboss)... All fun stuff.

[Despatche]

Here's where you project. I mentioned that Raiden II improves upon Raiden in every conceivable way. I've not made Raiden 1 out to be some shmup classic, even if I think it is a good, or very good game. If we are talking contemporaneous, I am arguing it's better than the games around it, and the games that inspired it. That's it, and nothing more. Apparently this quotidian statement is causing some real emotional trauma, especially when I joke about a lack of variety in Toaplan enemy designs. I thought people liked the straight-up military theme.

you explicitly said "i had no idea toaplan had such enemy variety, and quite honestly neither does raiden; i just needed something for this stupid joke". you're now trying to act like the joke had any merit at all when you've discredited it yourself, never mind that it's the exact opposite of reality to begin with

the only "emotional trauma" is the pain i feel whenever i encounter someone who is perfectly willing to ignore reality and tries to get everyone else to do the same by spreading absolute lies. you don't even make sense internally; how in god's name can you keep arguing and arguing and arguing about how great raiden is and how much better than its ancestors it is when you apparently don't see it that way

Maybe if there was a hack that standardized item drops and removed checkpoints. As it stands, I cannot stand Tatsujin. For me the game feels sloppy. Too many speed-up icons and you are clumsily zipping about everywhere, and because if I recall, there's not a set sequence of item drops, you are left with a lot of worthless icons floating around that could spell your doom if you collect them. It has a good soundtrack and groovy graphics though.

oh look, you keep lying about this randomness thing. you have clearly never played tatsujin in your life. no, the items in tatsujin are not random. no, all items are actually useful in this game. no, checkpoints benefit any given game because they either keep you from actual chain deaths (when the game is hard) or keep you from sliding right through difficult sections (when the game is easy and when they start removing penalties)

The only big Toaplan game I haven't played is Hishouzame. I know it gets a lot of praise here but I've only ever watched videos and didn't seem appealing. At least in comparison to Fire Shark. It might be worth checking out.

fire shark is a game that actually does have dangerous powerups, and the game is actually balanced around you treating them like bullets

If a scoring system does not meaningfully interact with the game, then I do in fact ignore it. Random bonus icons is not a scoring system. Raiden Fighters Jet, Takumi games, even Raizing games have more meaningful scoring systems that force you to think outside of the box and come with their own quirks, strengths, and weaknesses. Toaplan and early Seibu games don't. They are not the focus and are thus not worth deep consideration.

no scoring system meaningfully interacts with the game, except for extends and experimental games that power you up based on score. congrats, you're right about one tiny thing (mars matrix) for some very wrong reasons! the entire point of a scoring system is that it's arbitrary and detached from the "theme" of a game, so that one can actually approach it as a game and not as a fucking experience (which is what killed shmups)

scoring systems being more complicated means absolutely nothing except there are more things you have to physically keep in mind; that's not philosophical, it's mathematic. if scoring in a particular game means simply shooting down enemies and surviving, then scoring is the same as survival and that's that. the only time you "get" to say something ridiculous like "not worth deep consideration" is when you can actually pull off such "simple" scoring" like a pro and you are compeled to make things more "complicated"

you aren't just simply lying through your teeth, you're also shitting all over the concept of semantics in your vain attempt to try and redefine the concept of "score". complicated is not the same thing as complex; having to memorize more does not make the game "deep"

(raiden fighters and takumi games are fantastic examples of simple systems. "even raizing", totally coincidentally, is a great example of a fairly complicated game)

It's pretty faint praise, considering it only really worked for two, maybe three Konami games (and the rest of the time it was a chore). Even the best practitioners of checkpoints couldn't make it consistently enjoyable, but checkpoints in Gradius 1 and 2 are at least mostly well-thought-out, imo.

you are praising a company for something it has pretty much been against through its actions. you are missing the point so god damned hard

you're also shiting all over gradius 1, a truly well-designed game, simply by bringing it up as proof of this, as well by trying to lump it in with the poorly designed ii

but you can't really balance around no checkpoints except for removing all penalty for dying or making the game hilariously easy no matter what

This statement is pure bull. Play any Psikyo game. Play any Takumi game. Play any Raiden Fighters game. They certainly did not remove the penalty for dying (in RF there aren't even extends), and are definitely not "hilariously easy." Shmups from the 90s on were more than capable of balancing the game without relying on an outdated mechanic that did more harm than good.

they absolutely did remove the penality for dying, as dying tends to spell game overs in psikyo, and takumi games and raiden fighters don't have a reason to actually keep surviving (rf is almost raizing like)... oh, and takumi games and rf are fairly easy... oh, also dying completely ends runs as far as scoring goes, but you're trying so hard to get away from that

Dogyuun was a step in the right direction at least in terms of removing the obscenely long chain of getting powerups to be halfway decent at survival. That's an annoyance that a number of their games could have done without, imo.

please stop trying to talk about toaplan when you've already admited you don't actually play any of their games

every toaplan game ever requires no more than two powerups to be worth a damn, and it doesn't matter when the game makes sure you get them before everything goes to shit

I agree that it feels sloppy, but I enjoy the game. It shows some real creativity in the boss fights; I think Toaplan was really starting to get ambitious with boss design at this point. Even if their later games are not all of the same quality, Dogyuun, Tatsujin Oh, and Batsugun have some very fun and challenging bosses, both visually and mechanically.

oh hey, something to actually argue about. don't ever rep fucking batsugun for bosses. batsugun is a poorly designed piece of trash in many many many ways, which sadly is kinda fun and has good presentation so everyone adores it. i will admit that this puts it above something like secret of mana, but it's really hard not to do better than secret of fucking mana

I like Dogyuun and V-Five a lot.

sadly, you are an exception. dogyuun has a few problems, but it's not exactly insufferable; what it really needs is a patch to fix that silly crashing bug. v v is actually pretty good, trap just really doesn't like the slap fight meter for some odd reason

[EmperorIng]

You're acting insufferable. I touched on a nerve. The nerve is called video-games. Remind me to avoid them in your presence.

when you apparently don't see it that way

I said it's good, even very good. I don't know if I'd go as far as "classic," or Top 25 material, but it's a very enjoyable game. You can stop freaking out.

oh look, you keep lying about this randomness thing.

I'm probably confusing Tatsujun for Tatsujin Oh if this is the case. My bad. I still don't like Tatsujin, its checkpoints, or its power-ups though.

they absolutely did remove the penality for dying, as dying tends to spell game overs in psikyo, and takumi games and raiden fighters don't have a reason to actually keep surviving (rf is almost raizing like).

The reason to keep surviving is that the games are fun. It's almost like you are setting up some bizarre meta-game (e.g. continuous vitriolic diatribes) over the actual games themselves. When you use phrases like "sadly is kind of fun" you sound neurotic. If only the game totally sucked, then I would be happier!

[Squire Grooktook]

I wouldn't call Gradius II a well designed game, but calling it poorly designed doesn't give you the full story.

Gradius II actually has a ton of great moments. The level design is generally pretty damn solid, with some really awesome moments throughout. The problem is, the game was rushed like hell, and it shows. Stuff like the Crystal recovery and the last stage recoveries, really shows that not enough play testing was given to properly balance the game, as they're totally out of control. It has a few other issues as well (weapon balance, a few stages not up to snuff, etc.) but those are mostly minor, few, and irrelevant compared to the recovery issues. Still though, when the game shines, it really shines. Playing the volcano stage or recovering on the moai stage really makes you feel that this was a game made by people who understood how to make awesome action games. It's just a shame that time and budget cut down what could have been a near perfect game.