How DID the first Raiden do so well?

[Skyknight]

Looking at the threads for the PC release of Raiden III and the upcoming XBox1 publication of Raiden V (...they're not forgoing an arcade release, are they?), I noticed one or two people pointing out that the first game was a Toaplan ripoff. Admittedly, I hadn't played Alcon or most other Toaplan shmups when I first played R1, even if I *did* recognize the first part of "Lightning War" as very similar to "Against the Attack" from Sky Shark. Still, bringing actual knowledge of Toaplan's oeuvre to the table, the caught elements are obvious. Borrowed musical phrases from Tatsujin, Hellfire, and Sky Shark; Alcon-style trajectories for the homing missiles; tanks and patrol boats that get destroyed in two phases (turret, then body); side-wobbling; and so on, it seems.

So, the question is, if it was so un-original, how DID it outdo its Toaplan predecessors the way it did? Level design? Difficulty scaling? I'm not sure if having TWO weapon variables at once (vulcan/laser and incendiary/homing missiles) had been done before in Alcon or elsewhere, so that might be an actual innovation. Still, this is a mystery worth exploring...

[chempop]

It’s better than just about anything that came before it. Simple yet incredibly refined, a masterpiece from start to finish.
That’s my thoughts on the matter.

Also, nice to see another member from MA, have you seen my Western MA thread in the shmupmeets sub-forum?

[Bonus!]

IMO, Raiden I polished the STG formula just really, really well. Graphics and sound were very good, and the gameplay tight. I think it also has a much 'cleaner' look than other games of its era. All of this certainly made this game very appealing to a Western crowd. The Raiden series is still marketable in the West, unlike many other shmups.

[Blackbird]

It just does all the basics extremely well. Detailed sprite graphics, great sound, reasonable difficulty curve, and solid gameplay all in one game. It probably helped a lot that Raiden is one of the most ported shooting games of all time; it was on practically every platform you could think of back in the day.

[EmperorIng]

Having finally got to play Raiden earlier this year, I can definitely see how it succeeded where other games, even its inspiration, Twin Cobra, did not.

It presents a purely refined experience. Unlike Twin Cobra, it has two weapons that are (arguably) balanced for survival, as opposed to Twin Cobra's 4 weapons (but three of them being useless). The game's pace is quick and relentless in a way that most Toaplan/Toaplan clones would not be for another few years. Raiden epitomized the pick-up-and-play aspect that makes shmups appealing.

Add to that an impeccable soundtrack and a good sense of gritty style and graphical prowess, and you have a game that definitely could be a hit. I think it's possible that Raiden's no-nonsense approach and high-playability made it refreshing at the time, when you had some games indulging a bit too much in gimmicks, trying to be an R-Type clone, or a weak Toaplan clone.

It must be said that Raiden II outclasses Raiden in every possible way, even if I still rather like Raiden.

Raiden is one of the most ported shooting games of all time; it was on practically every platform you could think of back in the day.

Oh yeah, this shouldn't be overlooked. Of course, the game would not have been ported so much if it wasn't such a hit, but having everyone from PCs to SNESs to Geneses get a crack at the game did a good deal towards solidifying its popularity.

Blackoak has a good interview with Seibu Kaihatsu on his website shmuplations; they talk about Raiden and Raiden II fairly extensively. I'd recommend that for further reading.

[Jeneki]

I remember reading a magazine review for PS1 Raiden Project that started out something like "You just can't launch a console without Raiden showing up". Even Jaguar got a spin of Raiden action.

[NuclearPotato]

Having gotten to play the Jaguar port at a friends house recently, I feel like that port was really underrated. It was a lot closer to the arcade version then any of the other home ports up until the Raiden Project came out, and had a kick-ass remix of the soundtrack (that was turned off by default, because Jaguar).

[IseeThings]

Right game, right places, right time...

As others have said, the game has many good qualities, one of my favourite sound effects, lots of little graphical finishes etc. and a good difficulty balance - a ship you really feel in control of, not too big, not too small, weapons and enemies that deal/take roughly the amount of damage you'd consider reasonable, a good pace...

It also managed to hit the market in 1990, the year before SF2 so got noticed more than if it had been released after it (once SF2 came out every operator was looking for the next SF2)

It also (apparently) ended up bootlegged so heavily that Seibu locked down Raiden 2 .. well .. you know how. Many of the Raiden boards out there are said to be repro boards, even ones that look original. This I'm guessing gave it great penetration in global markets and established it as a household name (in a similar way to what happened with SF2 a year later really or what happens when YouTube videos 'go viral' these days) As a result there was a high demand for home ports.

There's also a topic about checkpointed games here, and Raiden strikes an interesting balance on that front - The original (Japan?) release is fully checkpointed, but the other releases only checkpoint you on continues, leaving it with a level of skill requirement. It also has 2 player support which bypasses the checkpointing (as long as you rejoin quickly enough) This almost encourages you to play with a friend as there is an advantage to doing so and a social aspect always makes games more popular.

[IseeThings]

Having gotten to play the Jaguar port at a friends house recently, I feel like that port was really underrated. It was a lot closer to the arcade version then any of the other home ports up until the Raiden Project came out, and had a kick-ass remix of the soundtrack (that was turned off by default, because Jaguar).

I have to disagree, the Jagaur port looks like Raiden, but really doesn't play like Raiden at all, it's like somebody watched a video of the game and tried to make something similar, but at no point does it actually feel like you're playing Raiden, all the game mechanics feel off, controls feel wrong, pretty much like everything on the Jaguar really.

The FM Towns port on the other hand is practically arcade perfect.

[Pretas]

I have to disagree, the Jagaur port looks like Raiden, but really doesn't play like Raiden at all, it's like somebody watched a video of the game and tried to make something similar, but at no point does it actually feel like you're playing Raiden, all the game mechanics feel off, controls feel wrong...

Perhaps the same could be said of all Western-developed 1980s/90s home computer ports of Japanese arcade games.

[IseeThings]

I have to disagree, the Jagaur port looks like Raiden, but really doesn't play like Raiden at all, it's like somebody watched a video of the game and tried to make something similar, but at no point does it actually feel like you're playing Raiden, all the game mechanics feel off, controls feel wrong...

Perhaps the same could be said of all Western-developed 1980s/90s home computer ports of Japanese arcade games.

I can't really disagree there.

In some senses it's what makes them so interesting. With the Japanese ports you tended to see developers try and stick to the original look and feel of the game as closely as possible, almost religiously, whereas many of the western releases you could say were 'inspired' by the originals, but were clearly developed without access to the original resources. Sometimes this worked well, other times the end result was an abomination, but it's always interesting to see how games were developed / ported based around constraints of the home platforms.

The internet, emulation, and the fact that most machines are capable of pretty much anything really changed all that, although you do see it to a degree with the mobile / handheld adaptations of games still..

[LordHypnos]

What would you say about the other Raiden Trads, though, compared to the Jag one. E.g the Genesis and SNES ports?

[IseeThings]

What would you say about the other Raiden Trads, though, compared to the Jag one. E.g the Genesis and SNES ports?

Always liked the Genesis one, it seems smooth and precise, not klunky like the Jag one.

I'm amazed to see the X68k didn't get a port.

[DEL]

SkyKnight wrote:

So, the question is, if it was so un-original, how DID it outdo its Toaplan predecessors the way it did? Level design? Difficulty scaling? I'm not sure if having TWO weapon variables at once (vulcan/laser and incendiary/homing missiles) had been done before in Alcon or elsewhere, so that might be an actual innovation. Still, this is a mystery worth exploring...

That is a very good question indeed.
It did nothing new. Was not as good as most of the Toaplan shooters that came before it.
Was mundane as hell.
So YES - Why?!?
None of the London players were particularly interested in it when it came out in the arcades.

The Capcom UK Manager came up to me in Casino Arcade and asked me: "What is it about this Raiden game that has made it so popular?"
I replied: "I don't know, it has nothing new and it doesn't interest me."

Capcom were obviously worried about the freak success of this mundane generic shooter called Raiden.

The answer is still not clear at all. Maybe it was pushed by some company with a lot of influence?

Its one of the video game mysteries that has me stumped to this day. The other mystery is how all the 1,000s of arcade cabs in the UK newsagents suddenly disappeared overnight in the mid 90s. ALL of them. Virtually no exceptions. None that I saw.

[Blinge]

Its one of the video game mysteries that has me stumped to this day. The other mystery is how all the 1,000s of arcade cabs in the UK newsagents suddenly disappeared overnight in the mid 90s. ALL of them. Virtually no exceptions. None that I saw.

They were in newsagents!?!?

...

actually, it might have been some government BS about kids bunking off school to play.

[Blackbird]

It's interesting to compare how the music differs between all the ports, as well. I've got a bit of nostalgia for the SNES Traiden Trad version, which gives it more of an "electro funk" take than other ports. I wish someone would upload the whole FM Towns Raiden soundtrack, though. There are only a few tracks on the internet, and the ones I've heard sounded arguably superior to the original arcade game. If the rest of it is as good as FM Towns Gallantry, then it might even be the overall best version of the soundtrack, actually.

[trap15]

I believe that actually had an album release: http://vgmdb.com/album/336

[cave hermit]

Regarding how Raiden overshadowed Toaplan games, there's a good chance that Raiden simply got noticed by chance. You guys know about that 2048 game that became pretty popular a little while back? It was a shameless clone (even the dev admits that openly) of the game "Threes!" which was in development for a far longer time and came out before 2048. The majority of people have only heard about 2048, and if they hear about Threes! think that it's a rip off.

[EmperorIng]

Was not as good as most of the Toaplan shooters that came before it.
Was mundane as hell.

Hellfire, Twin Hawk, and Zero Wing totally blow Raiden out of the water. And you're calling Raiden mundane against Toaplan?

I've heard some ridiculous things, but come on, let's have some standards. Seibu, unlike most early Toaplan games, was able to have flying and ground enemies in the same game!

@Raiden Trad
The Snes version sucks big time. Don't play it.

[Jeneki]

I remember SNES Raiden Trad. As soon as you destroy a boss, you can no longer control your ship. So if there just so happens to be a bullet heading your way when you get the killing blow, sucks to be you, no way to dodge it. Stage 6 is space only, no moon section, and a repeat of the stage 2 boss. And ugh that framerate. Sorry, can't recommend that version at all.

[Pretas]

Capcom were obviously worried about the freak success of this mundane generic shooter called Raiden.

Capcom's US advertising flyer for Dimahoo actually namedrops Raiden, likely because it's the STG that operators were most familiar with and it would have been the easiest way of explaining to them what the game is like.

[DEL]

EmperorIng wrote:

I've heard some ridiculous things, but come on, let's have some standards. Seibu, unlike most early Toaplan games, was able to have flying and ground enemies in the same game!

What like Truxton/Tatsujin with its ground and air enemies?!
You fail.

[trap15]

Or even Flying Shark/Hishouzame.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Don't remember seeing Raiden in UK arcades, only Raiden II. Flying Shark and Twin Cobra, on the other hand, were more common. And better games.

I'm guessing it was much more popular in the US, because you actually got Mega Drive and SNES ports. Europe didn't.

[EmperorIng]

I didn't say all. I'm pointing out how ridiculous it is to call Raiden "mundane" when measured against Toaplan, who were for most of their history the kings of dry, impersonal military-themed shooters. Raiden has far more style than Twin Cobra, Flying Shark, Twin Hawk, and arguably Fire Shark. Truxton has some groovy colors, but Raiden plays 1,000x better and doesn't inundate you with worthless speed up icons and random powerups.

[chum]

worthless speed up icons

do you even score

[EmperorIng]

You'd have to be a real fanatic to play Toaplan games for score. And not in any complimentary sense.

[Lilium]

ROFL. Absolutely flawless.

[emphatic]

It did nothing new. Was not as good as most of the Toaplan shooters that came before it.
Was mundane as hell.
So YES - Why?!?
None of the London players were particularly interested in it when it came out in the arcades.

My first go at Raiden left me unimpressed, and I played EVERYTHING that was good back then, as my home town had all of the golden era games. Probably bootlegs the lot of them, as I never played Raiden II in the arcades until I went to Germany, found and played DX in a huge arcade. Having played Slap Fight, Twin Cobra, Image Fight, Flying Shark, Sonic Boom and even XX Mission (christ!) before, Raiden never clicked with me. Maybe it was the difficulty? It just didn't feel fair to most of the seasoned players I used to hang with, and we did sink lots of time into the good games. It's not bad, but there were just too many better games around at the time.

Maybe it was pushed by some company with a lot of influence?

Yes, it's a mystery all right.

Its one of the video game mysteries that has me stumped to this day. The other mystery is how all the 1,000s of arcade cabs in the UK newsagents suddenly disappeared overnight in the mid 90s. ALL of them. Virtually no exceptions. None that I saw.

In Sweden, a pretty big operator got busted with using 2-in-1 JAMMA switchers that turned JAMMA games into gambling machines and lost a lot of business due to credibility. Maybe something similar happened in the UK?

[Furry Fox Jet Pilot]

It's a mystery to some of you why it did so well, but I'm glad it started a legacy that doesn't look like it's going to die out anytime soon. Say what you want about the first Raiden compared to other games, but once 1994 came around, Raiden DX rendered all other games mentioned in this thread completely obsolete.