the Burnout series, a discussion

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:40 pm

Discuss:

http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/fadeaway.htm

Personally, I haven't got much to add, because I think it's one of the most well-reasoned, accurate, and downright RIGHT pieces of video game writing I have ever read. Would be interested to hear what everyone else thinks though...

He also give Raiden 3 his game of the year, makes me all excited for the PAL release.

sffan · Post by **sffan** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:00 pm

I loved Burnout 1 & 2, both of which I own. But when I rented 3, I hated it. I never bothered with 4.

This review makes me realize I'm not the only one who thinks the series peaked at 2.

benstylus · Post by **benstylus** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:39 pm

When I first played Burnout, I thought it was a pretty decent racing game.

After playing Burnout 2, I just couldn't go back to the original Burnout... comparatively it just wasn't very good. They both offered nearly identical gameplay, but Burnout 2 was just that much more and that much better in every respect.

And I was eagerly anticipating Burnout 3. Then EA bought Criterion. Having a long-time boycott against giving EA my money (for more and more reasons every year), I swore I would never purchase the game.

My little brother, on the other hand, had no such boycott and he purchased it on day one. He brought it over to my apartment one day to show it to me, and after about 30 minutes I was itching to put Burnout 2 back in.

The only thing about Burnout 3 that I actually enjoyed was the Road Rage mode... and even that gets old pretty quickly.

I have no desire to even try Burnout 4.

At this point, I don't care whether it's EA or Criterion that wrecked the Burnout franchise... but I don't think I'll ever be buying another one.

My other favorite racing franchise seemed to be all but dead in the US, but then I saw a trailer for an Xbox 360 release, so perhaps there is still hope.

If not, then that's one more reason for getting a Japanese 360 over an American one.

df0notfound · Post by **df0notfound** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:35 pm

Didn't mention how the F1 car grand prix threw the entire games mechanics out of the window and made it infuriatingly difficult. I have a high tolerance for difficult games, if they're difficult for a reason but that level goes in the same pile as the space station tails level in SA2 which was buggy game ruining shit (well would have been if SA2 wasnt already the worst game ever by a major studio)

Post by **Ghegs** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:49 pm

I pretty much agree with the article. The only Burnout games I've played are 2 and 3. 2 was like crack, I think I completed all but the final race with all golds. I had my favourite track or two which I practiced A LOT, until I could Boost Combo through them against oncoming traffic. Great times.

Then I borrowed Burnout 3 from my brother, yelled "HOLY CRAP I CAN'T SEE" within the first 15 minutes and returned it promptly.

Vexorg · Post by **Vexorg** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:01 pm

Burnout 3 is the last EA title that I've purchased (and probably will remain so, since it was released just before the NFL exclusive that is the primary reason I won't buy EA games.) It's got a few interesting things in it (we used to play multiplayer crash mode a lot) but it got old fast.

On the other hand, I'm looking forward to Full Auto on the 360 when it comes out in a couple of months. It's a weapons combat racer, but it looks like it should do a good job of giving Burnout a run for its money. And if you haven't seen them yet, the promo videos for it at http://www.segalabs.com are pretty cool too if you like watching stuff blow up.

Bingo · Post by **Bingo** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:07 pm

I'll have to agree as well, although I still enjoyed B3 to some extent. The fact that I never felt the urge to even look at B4 speaks volumes though. For whatever enjoyment I found in B3 I knew it was headed the wrong way. They did more than add and refine, the core gameplay was changing. And it was that core gameplay, that simplictiy that was the main draw. It's no longer a perfectly orchestrated high speed race'n'boost. Boost comes way too easy, you race not to outrace but to outcrash at the opportune moment, which is greatly helped by the rubberband AI. When you drive 'in the zone' in the first two that skill is duly rewarded. In B3 you end up fighting to the finish line no matter what.

The problem is that they put in all the gimmicks and then had to justify their inclusion in the gameplay. Good ideas, but Burnout was never supposed to be another race fighter. Now it is. And it's no longer that rush. You can't race in the zone and make use of the super-ultra-crash-boost system at the same time. The ideas are mutually exclusive. B2 was the best, I kept racing the same tracks just to see if I could infini-boost my way through.

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:14 pm

I picked out Burnout 3 for Christmas becuase I read mostly good things about it and I heard it was the best in the series. Now I'm hearing nothing but bashing and complaints at the shmups forum? The way the game is talked about here and in the article, it sounds like an unplayable mess. However, everything I read on the game elsewhere suggests otherwise. I'll be really pissed if I ended up with a dud. Is everyone is agreement that Burnout 3 is a piece of trash? From what I saw of the game in videos and read about it in reviews, it sounds like a very good game.

Post by **Ghegs** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:23 pm

BrianC wrote:I picked out Burnout 3 for Christmas becuase I read mostly good things about it and I heard it was the best in the series. Now I'm hearing nothing but bashing and complaints at the shmups forum? The way the game is talked about here and in the article, it sounds like an unplayable mess. However, everything I read on the game elsewhere suggests otherwise.

And this is why you need to play games yourself in order to form a real opinion. One person's trash is another's treasure and all that. My brother, for example, liked the game, though he as well mentioned it's very hard to see where you're going in some tracks.

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:34 pm

Ghegs wrote:
BrianC wrote:I picked out Burnout 3 for Christmas becuase I read mostly good things about it and I heard it was the best in the series. Now I'm hearing nothing but bashing and complaints at the shmups forum? The way the game is talked about here and in the article, it sounds like an unplayable mess. However, everything I read on the game elsewhere suggests otherwise.
And this is why you need to play games yourself in order to form a real opinion. One person's trash is another's treasure and all that. My brother, for example, liked the game, though he as well mentioned it's very hard to see where you're going in some tracks.

Ok. I was going to do that anyway. I admit that the tracks to look cluttered, but I liked the videos I saw and what I have seen of Burnout Revenge, so I'll still give it a try. Telling from the videos, it looks like you can see much more with different camera angles. However, this does make me wish I got Burnout 2 for the old GameCube instead (I'm not happy that Criterion ditched the GameCube, even after leaving Acclaim).

PFG 9000 · Post by **PFG 9000** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:00 pm

This topic confuses me too. I own the first two Burnout games on PS2, but haven't played any of the others. I've heard universally excellent things about Burnout 3 up until reading this thread. Yet here it's thoroughly bashed.

It's very odd; you'd think at least a few people here would have good things to say about it.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:38 pm

I thought Burnout 3 was really fun. Problems were:

-the junction crashing challenges (or whatever) got redundant very fast
-the last few challenges I couldn't complete were very annoying (F1 racer? that's when the 90 degree angles become a problem)
-no replay value after 1 week

The article seemed like a lot of crying, and Raiden 3 wasn't even the best shooter of the year.

TWITCHDOCTOR · Post by **TWITCHDOCTOR** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:50 pm

You guys mean Burnout 3 "Takedown"? Its the only Burnout game I own, although I have played some of the others. They are good, I just never got around to picking em up.

Anyway, TakeDown is cool and very fast paced! The game can get a little repititous after a while if you overdose on it...then again, what game wouldn't?

subcons · Post by **subcons** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:54 am

I'll be honest, I didn't read that whole thing. I skimmed it and agreed with some point and not so much with others.

Bottom line, I enjoyed Burnout 3 thoroughly on Xbox and played it constantly for about a week or two. I really didn't feel the need to completely beat the game and the online sucked a wang so I put it towards Metal Slug 4/5. So hey, at least it went toward a good cause.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:05 am

Sounds to me like part 3 and 4 have limited appeal after a few hours.

Its fun at first, its technically good to look at.. but hours in your feeling like the next objective is just too stupid... I think most people wane in interest on the last 2 after a while.

Part 2 was the last game I played until the end, thought it was great! Well apart from the ranking system on the last set of 8 or whatever it was. If you come first on the first 3 or 4 races you can kiss your ass goodbye on the next few races.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:31 am

I picked out Burnout 3 for Christmas becuase I read mostly good things about it and I heard it was the best in the series. Now I'm hearing nothing but bashing and complaints at the shmups forum? The way the game is talked about here and in the article, it sounds like an unplayable mess. However, everything I read on the game elsewhere suggests otherwise. I'll be really pissed if I ended up with a dud. Is everyone is agreement that Burnout 3 is a piece of trash? From what I saw of the game in videos and read about it in reviews, it sounds like a very good game.

It isn't trash, far from, and it's probably very enjoyable if it's your first Burnout game. It's real problem is the way it messed with the mechanics of the first two. Burnout 2 was a pure, skill-based RACING game. Controls were spot on, cars felt right in the context of an arcade racer, and as others have mentioned, once you'd found a favorite track on 2, it was possible to practise it to the extent that you could race your way through all three laps without letting your boost meter drop from full; a sign of how the track could be mastered with a little patience.

Burnout 3 messed with it's ideas to an extent that the controls were WORSE - some cars feel stupidly twitchy, the F-1 car is a joke, and the powerslides no longer feel natural enough to pull of with confidence. The 'improved' visuals made the game much harder to play properly and reduced the civilial traffic element to complete randomness at times, the boost meter is almost redundant, and the purity completely diluted. 3 is just too random to allow the mastery of it that's possible over 2, even with the help of 'rail' barriers that steer your vehicle through half of the corners in the game for you.

It's not unplayable, but go pick up Burnout 2 for cube and see which you prefer. I'd be surprised if it wasn't 2 in the long run.

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:51 am

Any racers you recommend for PS2? Are the Moto GP games worth picking up?

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:56 am

Not played much PS2 stuff to be honest, the Xbox has always been where it's at for my racing needs. Between PGR2, Burnout 2, and Out Run 2, it has pretty much every base covered. Can't really go wrong with Burnout 2 on any format, and you've got a new version of Out Run 2 due, I'd be sure to get those.

Bingo · Post by **Bingo** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:24 pm

Marc's right on the money. The discussion was from an inside perspective. B3 isn't bad at all from a general gaming/racing perspective, it just started losing what made the first 2 special. It's still a blast for a while, but you probably won't feel the urge to master anything because the mechanics won't let you. It's made to be a fight and crash fest, so the only thing you can ace is chaos, not control. Now the chaos isn't that perfectly constructed and once you get the hang of some of the play mechanics you can do ridiculously well, diminishing further motivation. You could say it offers much more on the surface, but once you get into it you find out that most of it doesn't matter when you know what to do. B2s play mechanics rely on less gimmicks but end up offering more long term motivation because the simplicity leaves play open to almost infinite improvement.

FatCobra · Post by **FatCobra** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:13 pm

Revenge sucked horribly, IMHO. It didn't have any "quickie" modes like Crash Mode or Road Rage. Just the Crash World Tour. Ugh.

3 I thought was pretty good, but I didn't like the controls. In my racers, cars have to be precise and handle good. (Some realistic physics doesn't hurt either, but that's only because I was spoiled by Gran Turismo). Of course, Nintendo racers offer all of this (except MarioKart Double Dash, the karts handled horribly).

Sounds like 2 is the best game, from that article and the general opinions on this forum, probably because that's the last game before the series got EA-ified.

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:28 pm

Marc wrote:Not played much PS2 stuff to be honest, the Xbox has always been where it's at for my racing needs. Between PGR2, Burnout 2, and Out Run 2, it has pretty much every base covered. Can't really go wrong with Burnout 2 on any format, and you've got a new version of Out Run 2 due, I'd be sure to get those.

Yeah, the problem is I picked out Burnout 3 becuase I heard it was extremely good and I wanted a racer for PS2. I don't have Xbox, so that isn't an option ATM. I heard that Burnout 2 is better on Cube, so I want to go with that one. Also I have F-Zero GX for GCN, which is definatly one of the definitive racers for that system. I want to try an get the definitive racer for PS2, but I have no idea what it is. I'm more of a fan of arcade style racers than sims. Ridge Racer V sounds a big rehash that isn't as good as RR4 (I played a bit of the arcade RRV and I was not impressed) and I heard mostly disappointing things about Wipeout Fusion.

Post by **nZero** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:47 pm

I don't really have any particular reasoning behind it, but every Burnout game I've played has gone from HOLY CRAP THIS ROCKS on the first day to having no desire to even turn on the system with the game disc inside after a week. Which is why I'm glad most of the series is budget-priced now.

Post by **system11** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:19 pm

Burnout 3. Rubbish. Design a game so that the best way to finish it is scraping the track walls so the one sided rubberband AI doesn't overtake you, and a single crash means you may aswell quit and retry. Now call it Burnout 3. Ugh. Shitty attempt at street racing (kudos for the nice graphics engine).

B3 sucked so much, I never had the desire to play another.

I have NFSMW for the 360. I feel like a dirty, cheap sellout for buying an EA product, but the demo got me hooked. Graphics have a few problems, but they finally found the missing 'x' factor and made a NFS game that's FUN! It's still no Midnight Club, but then MC doesn't have police chases that can last 25 minutes and not get boring.

Also someone mentioned Full Auto - played a demo of this (on the official 360 mag disc). Again framerate problems (why!?), but it looks like it's going to be incredibly good - the level of carnage is truly a sight to behold

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:05 am

The complaints in the review for Burnout 3 don't sound like game killing ones and, for the most part, from what I saw it videos, it looks like the game DOES give you a good view of the road, though things certainly do get very frentic. Rubber band AI does sound annoying, but I dealt with it in many other games and still had fun with them.

Why so much EA whining? They don't have some magic curse they put on games and it seems like they do give developers some freedom on the majority of the games not designed by EA. Yes, they did do some unfair things like getting the exclusive NFL lincense. They do make overrated games, but believe it or not, EA actually does put out some extremely good games.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:14 am

I don't really care who published the game, I'm just sad that Criterion felt the need to mess around with a winning formula so much. Haven't even bothered to check out Revenge, and coming from someone that, until Takedown, was one of the series' biggest fans that's pretty telling.

Bloodflowers, do try and check out 2 though. Less obvious AI, better controls, better visibility and track design, far fewer 'rail' barriers, and a boost meter that actually means something all contribute to a far more enjoyable game.

Post by **system11** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:59 pm

BrianC wrote: Why so much EA whining? They don't have some magic curse they put on games and it seems like they do give developers some freedom on the majority of the games not designed by EA. Yes, they did do some unfair things like getting the exclusive NFL lincense. They do make overrated games, but believe it or not, EA actually does put out some extremely good games.

You forgot to cover them mistreating their workforce, campaigning to raise game prices, trying to foster a monopoly, and other examples of general corporate scum sucking.

Marc: I liked B2.

Ord · Post by **Ord** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:05 pm

EA are also trying to put a stop to pre-owned games going on sale in shops like GAME & Gamestation.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:42 pm

I haven't played a Burnout yet. I basically wanted to get a racing game all this time, but it never felt the right time: wipeout, my favorite in the genre by far, sucked in its Fusion form, GT is too anal with licenses and such...

Burnout seemed just like the type of arcade fun I wanted from such a game, but oh well, I spent this whole year in San Andreas and there was plenty of racing action there.

So, thanks to Stuart for the article, I got what I wanted to know: that Point of Impact is Sonic 2 / Turrican 2 for its series.

Given that I own both PS2 and Cube, which one release do you recommend?

FatCobra · Post by **FatCobra** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:45 pm

Turrican wrote:Given that I own both PS2 and Cube, which one release do you recommend?

Depends on which controller you prefer more. I have heard that the Cube port is probably the better choice.

I may have to hunt down this game. Burnout 3 was good, but I had no urge to play it afterwards.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:48 pm

FatCobra wrote:
Turrican wrote:Given that I own both PS2 and Cube, which one release do you recommend?
Depends on which controller you prefer more.

That screams "PS2" so loud.