A few beginner questions

[Bixler]

Hello -- I'm interested in getting into shmups. Just have a few small questions --

What are some good beginner shmups that you would recommend for PC? That's the only platform that is available to me, along with the 3DS and Sega Genesis. I have some experience with Jamestown (bought it recently), and I am having the time of my life. I have heard the Touhou games are popular.

I have heard that arcade sticks are the way to go for shmups players. Are some arcade sticks better than others? Are there any obvious recommendations for a beginner that won't break the bank? I have heard that the Qanba Q4 is a thing of beauty, but that is out of my price range unfortunately (for a while, anyway). Would it be awful to start off with a keyboard and just save up for a Qanba Q4 for a few months? Or would it be better if I started off with an arcade stick instead?

That's all for now, thank you!

[Ghegs]

Welcome aboard!

What are some good beginner shmups that you would recommend for PC? That's the only platform that is available to me, along with the 3DS and Sega Genesis. I have some experience with Jamestown (bought it recently), and I am having the time of my life. I have heard the Touhou games are popular.

Steam also has Satazius, Ether Vapor Remaster and readily Ikaruga available. Personally, I loved Satazius, it's a great hori, and on the easier difficulty settings quite beginner-friendly.

Would it be awful to start off with a keyboard and just save up for a Qanba Q4 for a few months? Or would it be better if I started off with an arcade stick instead?

What's important is that you play with a controller that you're comfortable with. We have great players who use a stick, we have great players who use a pad, and even great players who use a keyboard. It's really up to you what you want to use, none of them will magically make you great at the games, that comes from playing and practicing.

[chum]

Get the Touhou games and MAME

[Blackbird]

I would strongly recommend getting Crimzon Clover. It's only ten bucks and it's absolutely fantastic. There is a demo of the doujin version available if you want to try it out before you buy.

Hydorah is pretty fun and has great tunes. It's essentually a Salamander homage, but the gameplay is pretty solid and not too punishing. The game can be had for free, although it would be polite to make a small donation.

ChoRenSha68k, Kaikan, and Blue Wish Resurrection Plus are all superb doujin shmups that are available for free.

Astebreed is fantastic as well. It plays a little differently from most shmups in that there are a lot of melee attacks. The production values for this game are absolutely unreal.

[Stevens]

For PC games I have a wired 360 pad. I prefer the d-pad, but it can be suspect depending on the game (looking at you Jamestown). The analog is good enough in those situations though even if it isn't my preferred method.

It is also possibly the least expensive option after free as one will set you back around $20.

I stand corrected, Saturn USB pads a bit cheaper. However I can't speak for their quality. I would bet there are a few people here using legit Saturn controllers through a USB convertor.

Anyone?

[LordHypnos]

For PC games I have a wired 360 pad. I prefer the d-pad, but it can be suspect depending on the game (looking at you Jamestown). The analog is good enough in those situations though even if it isn't my preferred method.

It is also possibly the least expensive option after free as one will set you back around $20.

I stand corrected, Saturn USB pads a bit cheaper. However I can't speak for their quality. The originals were awesome though.

Anyone?

The one I had (Retrolinc brand) worked really nicely at first, but the d-pad eventually broke. I guess it's not as solidly built of a d-pad as the Saturn pad that I use for DC (Total Control 3 adapter) and PC as well, now (via mayflash adapter).

The Sega branded ones might be better though. i know a lot of people got excited when Sega rereleased them temporarily. Can't speak for their quality, but they fetch a very high price second hand (so not really a cheap option).

[Doctor Butler]

For PC games I have a wired 360 pad. I prefer the d-pad, but it can be suspect depending on the game (looking at you Jamestown). The analog is good enough in those situations though even if it isn't my preferred method.

Yikes! I'd recommend getting a standard PS3 pad for anyone who wants to use pad on PC. http://www.motioninjoy.com/

Motion in Joy will also allow you to use any PS3/360 stick on PC.

[Blackbird]

I stand corrected, Saturn USB pads a bit cheaper. However I can't speak for their quality. I would bet there are a few people here using legit Saturn controllers through a USB convertor

I have a Sega-branded USB Saturn controller. It's probably a bootleg, but if it is, I can't tell the difference between this bootleg and a real Saturn controller in regards to tactile/button feedback. I've had it for a couple years and it's worked flawlessly. As far as I'm concerned it's a great gamepad to play shmups with on the PC, if you prefer gamepads to other controllers. Got two of them for 20 bucks I think.

[Erppo]

The basic answer to "what controller should I use" is use whatever you want. There is no magic device that would let you learn faster or suddenly get better results than what you're already used to. Since all shmups use pure digital input, it doesn't matter at all how you give that input, as long as you can comfortably do everything you need.

I remember that I was confused myself initially since I was using keyboard to play my first shmups and some idiots said that you'd need a gamepad or a stick to play them properly. I thought that I might be missing something or not playing to my full potential but I'm happy that for some reason I stuck to it and noticed how wrong those people were. (Now I use both a stick and keyboard and I'm pretty much equally good with both)

[blackoak]

Probably more important than the controller is the display you use. The two main things to be concerned about are input lag and viewing angle/distance. The shmup genre developed out of arcades which were superior in both regards: 0 lag CRTs and a pretty ideal sitting/viewing angle with candy cabinets.

Neither is too hard to replicate without a cab, and if you play at your desk with a small, low-lag LCD, you'll probably be fine. But I know a lot of people who primarily game on their large HDTVs, and I've found that setup to be difficult to work with. Bigger screens usually translate to worse lag, and it's kind of difficult to sit close enough in your typical living room/den setup.

These things can really make a huge difference in how you experience the genre, even as a beginner. Lag turns games that allow for significant leeway through improvisational dodging into games of memorization, since reaction/execution time goes way down. And sitting at the wrong angle/distance makes micrododges very, very difficult (or something that has to be memorized, again).

[Cagar]

The basic answer to "what controller should I use" is use whatever you want. There is no magic device that would let you learn faster or suddenly get better results than what you're already used to. Since all shmups use pure digital input, it doesn't matter at all how you give that input, as long as you can comfortably do everything you need.

I disagree.

Go for an arcade stick.

[trap15]

Persuasive argument.

[chempop]

Blackoak speaks the truth, especially about plopping your ass directly in front of the TV, it's really important to be sitting the proper distance from the display depending on the size of the screen. I'd say anything in the 19-27" range you should be sitting close, anything larger maybe give yourself some room.

As for stick versus pad, a bad pad (say Dreamcast) is going to hold you back from getting anywhere. Trust me, I spent years failing on a DC pad until I realized that nearly all my deaths were due to inconsistent directional input. Even a half decent stick won't have this problem, and a good stick is probably worth learning on if you want to get serious about enjoying the genre the way it was intended. My view is that an arcade game is best experienced with arcade controls, save up for a decent stick and you won't be disappointed.

As for games, MAME is a great way to try things, just don't ask for where to get roms here since it's against the lawlz. If you enjoy collecting, genesis actually has tons of great non-arcade releases, some of which are still pretty affordable.

Check out the Xenocide files on the main shmups.com page, watch some youtube replays or reviews and see what's out there

[Bananamatic]

just play on a keyboard if you're going to play only on the pc, it's by far the best low cost control method

problems start when you're going to play some of the console ports, pads tend to suck 99% of time and the good ones are either expensive or sold out by now, so i'd just go for a stick
just play with whatever you're comfortable with...as long as it responds to your commands and it doesn't hit accidental diagonals and stuff, then it's objectively a bad controller

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I have heard that arcade sticks are the way to go for shmups players. Are some arcade sticks better than others? Are there any obvious recommendations for a beginner that won't break the bank? I have heard that the Qanba Q4 is a thing of beauty, but that is out of my price range unfortunately (for a while, anyway). Would it be awful to start off with a keyboard and just save up for a Qanba Q4 for a few months?

Plenty of people have done perfectly fine with keyboards for PC shmups. Whatever you use, the important thing is practice so you are comfortable with it.

[Weak Boson]

Definitely check out Satazius and Crimson Clover.

As for controllers I'd agree that it's just what YOU are best at using. (Didn't gus use the 360 dpad to counterstop all Futari Ultra?)

But if your heart is still wavering I would suggest trying a stick if you can find one for an agreeable price. I sure love mine. Look out for MadCatz sticks like these. I ended up paying £40 for mine but I've seen prices fluctuate from £20-£60 - on the lower end of the spectrum this is a great deal because, apart from it being a fairly solid controller in its own right, it's also easy to upgrade to your own specification - and doing that shouldn't be more expensive than buying a stick with real sanwa/seimitsu parts in the first place.

[Blinge]

a bad pad (say Dreamcast)

Wat?? really? I'm totally in love with the Dreamcast pad, the D-pad especially..

[BobbyNewmarkiii]

I really don't get using a keyboard to play shmups. Wasd or directional buttons mean you have to move your middle finger to change forward / reverse, which takes too long / gets tiring, and it's too easy to leave your index or fourth fingers on the left / right buttons, which f***'s you up. It could be that I'm doing it wrong, but when an arcade stick is so straightforward, affordable (depending on circumstances of course) and clearly the way it's meant to be played (TM), I don't see that it is a economy worth taking to not invest.

[nasty_wolverine]

BWR+
CRS68k
Kaikan

all free, all great, all PC.

[Bananamatic]

I really don't get using a keyboard to play shmups. Wasd or directional buttons mean you have to move your middle finger to change forward / reverse

it works the same way you play an FPS

[BobbyNewmarkiii]

Yeah, but I find I don't need so much precision or fast changes of direction on the movement keys for an FPS - i get all the precision work from the mouse. Take that away and I find it a really clunky control scheme, for shmups especially. Arcade stick though is perfect.

[Kollision]

PS2 analog FTW!

[cicada88]

get an arcade stick with Japanese parts

[Weak Boson]

Out of curiosity, does anyone using a a keyboard have a finger on each key? It's pretty comfortable for me to have my thumb on the down directional key. I always get the feeling that keyboards could be the most precise method, I just don't find them intuitive at all. There's some process in my mind that doesn't happen when I see a gap, I see how I have to go through it but I just can't tell my fingers what to do! I know that's just practice, but don't nobody need any extra hurdles in this business.

[professor ganson]

As for PC releases, I strongly recommend the Shikigami no Shiro series. All three games have PC releases. Awesome stuff.

[trap15]

Wat?? really? I'm totally in love with the Dreamcast pad, the D-pad especially..

What, how? That's absolutely the worst "popular" console controller of all time. The D-pad is near worthless too.

[Kollision]

I've used this "awful" d-pad for all the Dreamcast games I've beaten, and I had no problem at all with it.
And it was always the same controller, going strong for years.

Now the analog, that's indeed awful....

[WizardYuuka]

Get Zillion Beatz and an iidx controller. Literally all you need for maximum shmupping excitement.

[LordHypnos]

serious props to anyone who plays shmups using the DC d-pad. That's awesome. I can't quite handle it for something that requires that much precision. keyboards are fine as long as you don't have issues with, for example not being able to move right when z and x are both pressed. I had a keyboard like that. It had a few other issues, too, along those lines. The important part is just that something works and that it's responsive. Screen is probably a bigger concern. Noticeable lag is not okay, especially for beginners.

[PurpleTheGuy]

Yikes! I'd recommend getting a standard PS3 pad for anyone who wants to use pad on PC. http://www.motioninjoy.com/

Motion in Joy will also allow you to use any PS3/360 stick on PC.

Yeah, I pretty much use this (I use my DS3 pad, in-particular), when I play shmups on the PC, and it's been working out very well for me, since I first used this earlier this year!

Anyhow, to answer the OP (There's a lot of different answers here, and they're all good (They're more-or-less what I would have said, game-wise), and, eh, I guess I'll put up my own answer anyway, saying that (I'll do my best to answer every part of the OP's question!).

Some good ones to start off with for the PC (In my opinion) are Eden's Aegis, Blue Wish Resurrection Plus, GENETOS, the Exceed series, and, of course, the Touhou games, if you can get them ! Other PC games worth considering are Gundemonium Recollection,GunDeadliGne, Hitogata Happa, Trouble Witches, Kamui, RefleX, Pladzma, PatriotDark, Uwabami Breakers, Samidare, the Seihou games, Alternative Sphere, Kaikan, and Banshiryuu. MAME would also be a good thing to have, if you can also get that as well!

For the 3DS, the only ones I can think of right away that I would know about is Ketsui Death Label (region-free), and the Nanostray series. Outside of those two, I wouldn't know too much for the 3DS.

It's been a long time, since I last had a Sega Genesis (Last time I played one was when I was, like, 4 or so, yeah. I don't know where mine's went since), so I can't say much about that particular system.

For controller inputs, hmm, it depends. A good question to start off with would be "Which input do you find yourself most comfortable with?" Indeed, many great players use all kinds of inputs, whether gamepads, arcade sticks keyboards, and, perhaps, other gaming inputs out there, some even unconventional, so in actuality, there is no right answer in which one is the best to use.

For gamepads, I use my DS3 pad to play PC games with, and I do just fine with that, and it gets the job done quite well for what I like to be done. However, there are some others you can connect to your PC I've heard a lot about that are noteworthy, like the Saturn USB pads, for example, along with the Hori pads (I'm planning to get one for both the PS3 and the Xbox 360). That, and there are many other noteworthy gamepads out there, along with converters to boot, some already mentioned here, so I guess look around a bit.

For keyboards, it depends on which one you use (I'm assuming you are using your main computer, and not a laptop) but some do just fine with simple logitech keyboards. I've heard of mechanical keyboards being excellent for PC games if you're really into using keyboards, but they're a bit on the pricey side, so yeah. I guess you can start by trying your keyboard out, and seek what you think of it so far.

For arcade sticks, well, from what I know, all the good ones are pretty pricey, yeah. A friend of mine's managed to get an "MLG" LE TE arcade stick by Madcatz, and that was only because he got it off at 50% off. Even then, he still had to pay $100 (It's original price is around $200 or so). Good luck on the arcade sticks, I wouldn't know much about them. There's others on here that can tell you more than I could ever hope to say about arcade sticks, if you seek them out.

Best of luck on finding the best fit for you, experiment with each one a bit, and I hope that you get to go pretty far in the shmup genre! It isn't easy at first to start off, but eventually, if you play and practice long enough and find out what works best for you, gaming-input wise and practice-wise, you'll find it's all not as bad as they may seem at first glance.