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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:46 am 


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Straight into my monitor via VGA, Dell S2740L


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:09 am 


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There you go then.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:00 am 


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Holy crap that's a fast transition! 1 second maybe? I wouldn't even call that a problem and have no problem living with that. That's about as close to CRT as you can get.

The problem is I don't play on a monitor and play using a HDTV. How much slower is it on a TV?
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:10 am 


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completely depends on your TV model and if needs to resync or not. Using a VGA to component transcoder on a 42" Sony it's maybe a second longer.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:11 am 


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Maybe it is also game-dependant ?
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:15 am 


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I doubt that, but it might be slightly different for each source system (e.g. PS1 compared to SNES). I last tried with a SNES.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:07 pm 


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Never tried on a bigger TV


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:40 pm 


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austin532 wrote:
The problem is I don't play on a monitor and play using a HDTV. How much slower is it on a TV?


The XRGB-3 has TERRIBLE compatibility with TV's, you'd be lucky if it works at all. It's designed for computer monitors. If you read through this thread there's a whole host of compatibility and image issues. I use a three device chain (X-Select D4, XRGB-3, Gefen VGA to DVI Scaler plus) to get functionality close to what you get straight out of the box with the Mini. And I seriously doubt you'll find a used XRGB-3 for less than $250. If you're itching for another scaler by all means, go ahead. Otherwise, it just makes sense use a PS2 with GSM to force 240p. The PS2 has actual PS1 hardware and GSM settings carry over into PS1 mode. If you play a ton of games on other systems that switch between 480i and 240p I guess it makes sense to get one.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:16 pm 


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By sticking it through the Gefen scaler too, you're ending up with more lag than the XRGB Mini has.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:00 pm 


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Yup, when chaining another processor to the XRGB-3 it's very much a "pick your poison" type scenario; the Gefen adds lag and the occasional screen tearing (which requires you to power cycle it), the DVDO edge adds ringing and the Optoma HD3000 can't interpolate the XRGB's 720x480 which makes it look off.

I can't stand ringing and I'm not real picky about lag, so I'm sticking with the Gefen. I do wonder how other processors such as the VP30, 50, PMS Crystalio II and Lumagen Vision HDQ perform. But the price on some of those is a real turn off. Much easier to just buy a Mini... :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:05 pm 


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I find the whole ringing thing to be exaggerated on the DVDO/ABT scalers, except when doing 240p natively. There are definitely problems with noise and colour bleeding though, but on the whole it's a very nice combo.

Optoma HD3000 + XRGB3 also can't do PAL, if anyone was interested in that.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:46 pm 


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My own experience with 'combos' so far;

XRGB 2 & 3 + VP30 = quite good picture quality, excellent compatibility, ringing is not an issue at all (absolutely never noticed any w/ scanlines on)
VP30 alone w/480i content -> ABT102 card produces close to zero ringing, but motion isn't great

XRGB 2 & 3 + EDGE = have yet to try (need to build the proper cables, will do it soon)
EDGE (non-green) alone w/ 480i content -> sharper thanks to the details enhancer, noticeable ringing though, much better motion handling

I plan try with a VP50pro someday, if I find one at a decent price...
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:49 pm 


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I wasn't impressed with the 50Pro, Fudoh likes his but to me it seemed a step backwards from the Edge despite having so many more features. The transitions also take longer on the 50pro than the Edge.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:24 pm 


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Why are you guys using combos?


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:33 pm 


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The DVDOs add things like overscan, zoom, pan, digital + analogue output, better handling of interlaced content, and many more other features standalone XRGBs don't have.
And the icing: you get all this and still keep the lag very low (about 7-8ms in total).
Combos are simply the superior solution, the thing is to choose which one you want, and it's hard to make your mind until you have actually tried most (which is a big investment, but the resell value is high).
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:47 pm 


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Quote:
Optoma HD3000 + XRGB3 also can't do PAL, if anyone was interested in that.

as long as the XRGB-3 is connected in VGA. By adding a component transcoder in between, the Optoma handles both PAL and NTSC from the XRGB *and* the Optoma even properly resolves the XRGB's 720x480p output on top. Impressive combo, although a little bit slower than a DVDO/XRGB combination.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:35 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
as long as the XRGB-3 is connected in VGA. By adding a component transcoder in between, the Optoma handles both PAL and NTSC from the XRGB *and* the Optoma even properly resolves the XRGB's 720x480p output on top.


I just set this up; XRGB-3 > X-Select > Optoma and the quality's fantastic! I had to enable v-sync and set the resolution to 640x480 to get a picture though. One thing I forgot to mention, the Gefens scaling is uneven due to not being 100% compatible with the XRGB's signal. You won't notice this with in-game graphics, but you will easily see it in the XRGB's adjustment menus. The Optoma has a visually similar, but worse issue with not recognizing the XRGB's 720x480 over VGA.

The chain Fudoh mentioned has completely even scaling and a more solid feel. The only problem's while the Optoma has H and V scaling, for some reason image adjustment's disabled with component input, so you can't get a perfectly scaled AND centered picture without black bars. Adding an Extron RGB interface to the chain with H and V adjustments will take care of that, though.

My only concern at this point is noise, now that the X-Select is no longer filtering the component signal before the XRGB. It might be fine between the XRGB's low pass filter and the Optoma's noise reduction. I'll do some testing with the noisy PS2 sometime today and report back. :)


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:20 pm 


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the Gefens scaling is uneven due to not being 100% compatible with the XRGB's signal

it should be 100% perfect if you use the AUTO setting. This should result in a clock (or phase?) adjustment of 106 - something you cannot do manually. The AR will be a little too wide though.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:25 pm 


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Yeah I found the Gefen to be perfect in that regard too.

Quote:
Why are you guys using combos?


My TV won't work with the XRGB3 any other way than to combo it in some fashion.

Never thought to try the Optoma with a transcoder, I should update the Wiki with that too. Still I'm perfectly happy with the Edge combo.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:48 pm 


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Fudoh and BuckoA51 are right about the Gefen. I reset both devices and the scaling was completely even and solid with both the Wii and PS2 in 240p. I've been switching back and forth between playing 240p games and 480i widescreen hacked PS2 games in B1, the latter which has sync issues where the image shifts off center -- I've been inverting H and V sync, changing resolutions and messing around with any setting that causes the Gefen to resync in hopes of somehow solving it. You can invert H or V and the scaling remains fine, but once you do both it's uneven. Changing settings on the Gefen (which I've also been doing) may also affect it.

For the XRGB's linedoubled 720x480p output the Optoma's noticeably sharper, but not necessarily better looking than the Gefen. I thought the X-Select might be filtering the noise out the XRGB signal but unfortunately that wasn't correct. Light backgrounds show lots of noise. For component signals ideally, you'd want a transcoder both before AND after the XRGB-3 for the Optoma.

With the new set up (XRGB > X-Select > Optoma) switching between 480i and 240p with Espgaluda was just as quick as the video brownvim posted, so there's that.

The Gefen may not have adjustable H and V image scaling, but it does have H and V adjustment and a 'Panscan Fill' option for 4:3 which, in conjunction with the 'Fill/Overscan' setting on most TV's, you can get very nice results with. For 16:9 games there's 'Fill' and 'Overscan' which both work very well. With dedicated H and V scaling the Optoma obviously edges it out, although it does have image adjustment for component input, but only when set to 16:9, the option disappears when set to 4:3!


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:20 pm 


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Quote:
With the new set up (XRGB > X-Select > Optoma) switching between 480i and 240p with Espgaluda was just as quick as the video brownvim posted, so there's that.


Shoot now I regret selling my Optoma :)

I think someone said elsewhere that the transition time can be minimised on the DVDO + XRGB3 combo by turning off output frame lock too, but I've not played any games recently that do the whole switching thing.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:22 pm 


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Quote:
can be minimised on the DVDO + XRGB3 combo by turning off output frame lock too

but I wouldn't really call this a valid option. For most sources you introduce choppy scrolling at the same time...


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:24 pm 


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^
I confirm it sucks this way.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:45 pm 


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BuckoA51 wrote:
Shoot now I regret selling my Optoma :)


lol, who would've thought that transcoding to component would fix the interpolation issue? It's somewhere between not good and unimpressive over VGA. The Optoma has been my overpriced Original Xbox scaler until now. If the Xbox didn't look so damn good on it, I would've sold it long ago. Why did you try this Fudoh and what did you expect?


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:01 am 


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Meant for PM :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:04 am 


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Quote:
Why did you try this Fudoh and what did you expect?

I've been eliminating VGA wherever possible for quite some time now. When I had the XRGB-3 running on my VGA-less Sony W6 last year, I tried the Optoma/XRGB combo as well. It was really a no brainer, worked as planned with the results I was expecting.

While HDMI ports in general support both resolutions (VESA 640x480 and SMTPE 720x480), VGA to HDMI converters unfortunately have the signals reported as VESA to the TV, so you're back to the usual problem. VGA to component and an additional component to HDMI conversion works fine though, but it's likely to much to ask for most users.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:17 am 


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How does an XRGB (2/3) + transcoder to component with a bit of overscan on the W6 fares in comparison ?

Actually I am going to try this in a few days when I'll get the AA 9A60 but I am still wondering about other solutions.

I've always looked for a good way to upscale the XRGBs, clean and overscanned, while keeping the super-low lag.
The DVDOs do well but if a there's a better way...
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:24 am 


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How does an XRGB (2/3) + transcoder to component with a bit of overscan on the W6 fares in comparison ?

excellent. The Sony's scaling is considerably better than the DVDO's scaling. The Optoma might be a tad better, but not worth the extra cost and effort - especially since the Optoma never got a fully working firmware release.

The medium overscan setting on the Sony is a pretty good match for 224p sources. You might be losing a line or two, but overall nice.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:29 am 


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Good, good,... can't wait to try ! :D
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-3
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:32 am 


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Is there a generally recommended transcoder for that? I suspect some cheaper ones may degrade quality.


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