Automated scoreboards (split from CC:WI thread)

[Icarus]

Everyone in this forum is going to buy this regardless of what's in the description anyway.

And maybe only three people will post scores for it, like usual.

[Illyrian]

Everyone in this forum is going to buy this regardless of what's in the description anyway.

And maybe only three people will post scores for it, like usual.

This is shmupsfarm, you were expecting something different?

[Icarus]

Everyone in this forum is going to buy this regardless of what's in the description anyway.

And maybe only three people will post scores for it, like usual.

This is shmupsfarm, you were expecting something different?

Nope, although I would have liked to have been pleasantly surprised. :3

[Patashu]

Everyone in this forum is going to buy this regardless of what's in the description anyway.

And maybe only three people will post scores for it, like usual.

Well I'm not going to post scores because I'll be playing for survival so my scores will be ass by default.

[Cagar]

I'm being stupidly optimistic about this release. I believe that we will have huge farm sxore-competition.

Spoiler

Squire grooktook's post-quality is so great these days.

[-S.L-]

Everyone in this forum is going to buy this regardless of what's in the description anyway.

And maybe only three people will post scores for it, like usual.

if it was updated more often, maybe people would post more.

the fact that it's a little bit abandoned does not encourage people to play for score or to post their best.

this is the problem of this forum, on the french board we have the best system ever, but that's off topic.

[Despatche]

What a bunch of lies! Just because SFKhoa doesn't update your score the day you submit it doesn't mean it's abandoned. Never mind just how few scores actually come in on a day-to-day basis, for any game. The truth is that people do not like to learn games; nearly everyone is like Patashu up there. The only time you can actually get people to play a game is when the tourneys happen.

Also "Crimzon Clover puts a much-needed polish on the classic Shoot 'Em Up genre" is the most fucking retarded thing I've read in a while.

This goes beyond the "casuals", even. People in this forum had the exact same sentiments the day the demo dropped, sentiments which then spread elsewhere. Cagar was and is in no way alone in his opinion.

[Patashu]

What a bunch of lies! Just because SFKhoa doesn't update your score the day you submit it doesn't mean it's abandoned. Never mind just how few scores actually come in on a day-to-day basis, for any game. The truth is that people do not like to learn games; nearly everyone is like Patashu up there. The only time you can actually get people to play a game is when the tourneys happen.

I learn games! I just learn them for survival not scoring. Because I am 2noob right now.

[-S.L-]

What a bunch of lies! Just because SFKhoa doesn't update your score the day you submit it doesn't mean it's abandoned. Never mind just how few scores actually come in on a day-to-day basis, for any game. The truth is that people do not like to learn games; nearly everyone is like Patashu up there. The only time you can actually get people to play a game is when the tourneys happen.

I'm not lying, it's just fact, and it doesn't concern only me or crimzon clover or SFKhoa or whatever. It is the way it is. Some score board are well updated, some are complete waste of (time) scores.

Again, an automatic system would give life again to all high score topic here, with competition, and that is what this is all about after all, or even for casual gamer, they still like to have their archivements saved somewhere. What's wrong with that ?

Somehow, Icarus was just very right in his last posts here. After the hype and few scores, maybe SFKhoa will be overwhelming with too much maintenance (and I don't even blame him at all, not even a second for that), and the score thread will go down back to the underground...

Automatic score posting system gave another healthy life to our forum. Even DEL is using it !


this image is updated in real time on the forum whenever someone puts a score here http://hiscores.shmup.com/games



Anyway !

Good luck everyone on the new opus.

[Bananamatic]

why the hell did you combine the shot types
now there is no reason to not play Z

[-S.L-]

Because we are french and we don't give a Type F...

This was just an example. Never mind.

[Bananamatic]

i'm pretty sure we're still doing it manual because automatizing it would remove the community aspect or something(and not many people play for score anyways so it's easy to maintain)

it's just a fact, not many people give a shit about serious scoring and no amount of automatic scoreboards would change that
also I'm pretty sure the steam version will come with leaderboards either way

[-S.L-]

i'm pretty sure we're still doing it manual because automatizing it would remove the community aspect or something(and not many people play for score anyways so it's easy to maintain)

it's just a fact, not many people give a shit about serious scoring and no amount of automatic scoreboards would change that
also I'm pretty sure the steam version will come with leaderboards either way

mate, your thought was exactly the thought of everyone on our forum. "oh yeah but this will kill the spontaneous thing going on in our high score thread, it will be dull" etc...

in fact , it just did the complete opposite, everybody started to play again, for scoring or not, but PLAYING. Sharing stuff, strategy, healthy and fun competition etc... Now that's something cool on a ...video game forum. No?

We have now more than 4000 scores abe everyday it's growing like crazy, and we dont cover yet all the games thaty exist.

Yes there will be leaderboard on the World Ignition. If even a couple of people DO care about serious scoring, then they should be considered a little bit more too. Otherwise you can just close the High Score section of this board and just speak about Cave VS Raizing, Mame VS PCB all your life. High scores are as important than any other section here or anywhere.

peace

[emphatic]

Because we are french and we don't give a Type F...

Well played, sir.

[Despatche]

Nice job on completely ignoring the actual potential issue you brought up! Your real problem is a complete non-problem and not at all how you describe it.

People actively dislike the concept of scoring. You hear about it all the time, all over this forum and all over the internet in general. Scoring is for "weirdos", they say, never mind that this genre is supposed to be for "weirdos" to begin with.

You would have to be legitimately clinically retarded for whether a board is automated or not to actually have an effect on whether you submit something, because that's how little it actually matters to anyone who's putting some actual thought into anything they do (which is required for scoring and caring about scoring). Automating the boards didn't change anything for shmup.com, as the people of shmup.com were always like that, which makes your site a giant exception to everything.

No, what we need to do is to change the mindsets of people completely, and that is almost always a giant circlejerk that one would need to use force to really "fight". Good fucking luck.

[zakk]

An automated scoreboard on this forum usually involves you having to correct a bunch of entries because people are stupid and can't follow simple formatting instructions.

[chum]

I think automatic is better provided the layout is as follows:

Replays are either required or not having a replay greys your entry so people can feel free to disregard it.
Different shot types = different categories

[-S.L-]

Not much of optimism here. I give up.

[Some-Mist]

Not much of optimism here. I give up.

I'm super excited

it will actually be the first PC shmup I'll own since I typically don't play these kinds of games on my comp.

[Kollision]

Not much of optimism here. I give up.

I'm super excited

it will actually be the first PC shmup I'll own since I typically don't play these kinds of games on my comp.

Same here, kinda.
I registered on Steam two months ago and downloaded Satazius but never played it.

[endoKarb]

I wholeheartedly agree with -S.L-

The way score are tracked in this forum/community is stupid and unlikely to change. I basically put all my scores on Restart Syndrome nowadays, despite the clumsy interface.

I think automatic is better provided the layout is as follows:

Replays are either required or not having a replay greys your entry so people can feel free to disregard it.

How is this not a problem with forum posts?
A better solution would be to have a "report score" button to point out fishy entries.

Different shot types = different categories

Shot types leaderboard are silly, cause nobody care about being the 3rd best player with the 4th worst ship and such. General leaderboard + arcadia-style best score with each ship type leaderboard is the solution.

Anyway, Crimzon Clover. Pretty good game, huh?
I wonder how different the NeSICA version feels compared to the original.

[Cagar]

Nice job on completely ignoring the actual potential issue you brought up! Your real problem is a complete non-problem and not at all how you describe it.

People actively dislike the concept of scoring. You hear about it all the time, all over this forum and all over the internet in general. Scoring is for "weirdos", they say, never mind that this genre is supposed to be for "weirdos" to begin with.

You would have to be legitimately clinically retarded for whether a board is automated or not to actually have an effect on whether you submit something, because that's how little it actually matters to anyone who's putting some actual thought into anything they do (which is required for scoring and caring about scoring). Automating the boards didn't change anything for shmup.com, as the people of shmup.com were always like that, which makes your site a giant exception to everything.

No, what we need to do is to change the mindsets of people completely, and that is almost always a giant circlejerk that one would need to use force to really "fight". Good fucking luck.

So you disagree with this:
People might be more inclined to post scores and get in the competition if the system is automated and fast.

EDIT:
nvm, I guess you do.

You would have to be legitimately clinically retarded for whether a board is automated or not to actually have an effect on whether you submit something

I would love to hear more about what makes you think so.

Why aren't people using restart syndrome?

[Bananamatic]

Shot types leaderboard are silly, cause nobody care about being the 3rd best player with the 4th worst ship and such.

When ships are downright broken and superior in every way(and usually they are unlocks) it would be stupid to put their scores in the same table as the rest of the ships

Type Z Unlimited clear is easier than clearing Original with Type I. Same for type D in sdoj, it's just a hilariously overpowered unlock.

[chum]

How is this not a problem with forum posts?
A better solution would be to have a "report score" button to point out fishy entries.

The difference if automated all the boards would follow the same standard whereas in this board every thread has its own rules depending on who made the thread. I don't see how we could suddenly just force everyone to grey out every run without a replay

Shot types leaderboard are silly, cause nobody care about being the 3rd best player with the 4th worst ship and such. General leaderboard + arcadia-style best score with each ship type leaderboard is the solution.

I don't really understand what you mean by this. You say "arcadia-style best score with each ship type leaderboard is the solution" isn't that the same as saying different ships = different category?

Also, you may not care about being whatever best with whatever ship, but lots of other people do, because every ship will have a different potential it isn't fair to put them all together

[Cagar]

Shot types leaderboard are silly, cause nobody care about being the 3rd best player with the 4th worst ship and such.

When ships are downright broken and superior in every way(and usually they are unlocks) it would be stupid to put their scores in the same table as the rest of the ships

Type Z Unlimited clear is easier than clearing Original with Type I. Same for type D in sdoj, it's just a hilariously overpowered unlock.

I'm actually quite surprised that Type Z wasn't nerfed to be on par with the other ships in the nesica version.

[Icarus]

Why aren't people using restart syndrome?

As a high score listing, it's decent. As a place that encourages discussion and analysis, it fails on every level.

The problem here is two-fold: I agree with S.L in that an automated system would create faster updates, which gives people a sense that their progression is being acknowledged when they see their position moving up the board instantly. Back when I maintained score threads, I used to ensure that updates were done at least every two to three days, so that they remained active and constantly refreshed. Whether or not it worked is another matter, but old threads like my Batrider and Ibara score tables were moving quite regularly when I had them going. With slower threads, I don't often feel the need to post anything unless I have a score I want to post, which kind of goes against my personal preferences, as I like to post a score and talk about how the run went down - kind of like laying markers of progress. If there is active competition in a thread, I usually feel more compelled to post my progress, keeping things going.

However, I also agree with Despatche in that the problem on shmupsfarm is also a behavioural one. Too often do I see new release threads in Shmups Chat brimming with hype, with a large number of people talking about buying the game, but then when the score threads open up, you see the same five or six players posting scores actively. That's kind of what I meant by my original comment a few pages back. It's kind of depressing. Using excuses such as "I only play for survival as I'm a noob" doesn't fly with me either, considering you can get pretty decent scores just going the distance - and posting your score would give you a visible marker for progress, and would start some kind of discussion with other players that could lead to better play.

But whatevs. This problem is more deep-seated than expected, and would take a lot more effort to fix than anyone is likely to want to invest.

tl,dr: It looks like I have started an argument. :d

[endoKarb]

The difference if automated all the boards would follow the same standard whereas in this board every thread has its own rules depending on who made the thread. I don't see how we could suddenly just force everyone to grey out every run without a replay

I`m not sure I understand. I`ll try to explain myself again.
Most of the scores people post on leaderboards (automated or not) are legit. Nobody would bother faking a, I dunno, 18 mil EspGaluda score. And even if someone did, it wouldn`t hurt anybody.
For this reason, I don`t think there`s any point asking everyone for a replay.

The whole issue becomes really relevant with top scores. But those are few in number, and a simple button (on an hypotethical automated score) to report the fishy-looking ones would minimize the issue.

If you are in the top 3 of a game anyone can "challenge" your score, and if you don`t put a replay or at least a good pic, the score gets greyed out. Something like that.

I don't really understand what you mean by this. You say "arcadia-style best score with each ship type leaderboard is the solution" isn't that the same as saying different ships = different category?

Sorry, I didn`t explain myself very well. I meant you only really need to keep track of the single best score with each ship type, not all of them. Like in Arcadia.

Code: Select all

DoDonPachi:
Type A	748,414,350	ＳＯＦ－ＷＴＮ
Type B	704,638,650	ＫＴＬ－ＮＡＬ
Type C	722,157,820	ＳＳＰ－揚雲

simple and short, it gives you a good idea of the difference in score potential/difficulty of the various ship without taking much space.
If shmups were hugely popular (lol), full ship-type specific leaderboard would be a great idea. The way things are though, it just spreads the competition too much.

Hope that made sense.

[Kollision]

Why aren't people using restart syndrome?

Probably because the site isn't visually enticing?
Anyway, what happened to the supposed presentation overhaul some people were talking about a while ago in order to help CSF out?

[chum]

I`m not sure I understand. I`ll try to explain myself again.
Most of the scores people post on leaderboards (automated or not) are legit. Nobody would bother faking a, I dunno, 18 mil EspGaluda score. And even if someone did, it wouldn`t hurt anybody.
For this reason, I don`t think there`s any point asking everyone for a replay.

The whole issue becomes really relevant with top scores. But those are few in number, and a simple button (on an hypotethical automated score) to report the fishy-looking ones would minimize the issue.

If you are in the top 3 of a game anyone can "challenge" your score, and if you don`t put a replay or at least a good pic, the score gets greyed out. Something like that.

There are different ways you can deal with this but I think people have too many biases to do it well in such a "case-by-case" way. Someone's legit score could be unfairly marked while another not legit score could fail to ever get reported. Just greying every run without a replay works IMO because everyone is free to make up their own mind but at the same time it is made clear that certain runs can be watched and others there is no real proof for. Of course we can think it matters mainly for the top scores but I think that having the same standard for everyone no matter how high level they are is good

In Touhou land it's extremely rare for high level players to sometimes not share a top score (LYX is the only one that comes to mind) and also been part of the speed running community where it's pretty much a given that you need video proof for anything to be counted as real. In relation, non-touhou shmups is extremely backwards...

Just to make it clear I'm not suggesting that grey scores wouldn't count or anything like that. I'm not suggesting people must record everything they do. But a run that can be watched cannot be truly compared to "just a number".

Sorry, I didn`t explain myself very well. I meant you only really need to keep track of the single best score with each ship type, not all of them. Like in Arcadia.

Code: Select all

DoDonPachi:
Type A	748,414,350	ＳＯＦ－ＷＴＮ
Type B	704,638,650	ＫＴＬ－ＮＡＬ
Type C	722,157,820	ＳＳＰ－揚雲

simple and short, it gives you a good idea of the difference in score potential/difficulty of the various ship without taking much space.
If shmups were hugely popular (lol), full ship-type specific leaderboard would be a great idea. The way things are though, it just spreads the competition too much.

Hope that made sense.

I understand what you mean now, but I don't agree with it, hehe. My personal preference for the scoreboards is to have one main board for all ships, and a sub board for each ship.

[Despatche]

I don't think "automated scoreboards" are the problem, but I do think that they won't change the situation we have: people do not want to care about the concept of scoring to begin with. It's just that, over the years, I've come to like the system we have now; it's just more "fun" for some reason. That's really what it comes down to: other than this aesthetic detail, it would make no difference whether a board is automated or not, as one would still have to go through a lot of the same processes that they do now (the stuff that matters).

Seriously, unless someone's taking weeks to update, any minor encouragement from actually seeing the update on the board is almost non-existent... and such a person should really be focusing on improving that score instead.

simple and short, it gives you a good idea of the difference in score potential/difficulty of the various ship without taking much space.
If shmups were hugely popular (lol), full ship-type specific leaderboard would be a great idea. The way things are though, it just spreads the competition too much.

But there's no actual difference. It doesn't "spread the competition" because the competition is going to use whatever the rest of the competition tells them to. That's why types need to be separated in the first place! Types are inherently different, so there's no reason to go back and throw them all together, because such a board has absolutely nothing to possibly say no matter how many scores it has. Grouping types together is almost as bad as grouping difficulties together, and if you look hard enough you'll find that the latter is a thing even now.

Splitting the DDP types is not going to split the competition. What it is going to do is make things a lot more fair, and encourage people to play the game in the flatly different ways that were actually put in there by the developers.

On another note, a lot of threads had to get replaced recently because their maintainers Left The Internet, but the one person who's supposed to maintain the index pointing to them is extremely taxed by Life on a day-to-day basis, poor spadgy; that's an immediate problem. The sad thing is that even if this problem was fixed, it wouldn't change much either.