Is the Genre Seeing an Increase in Popularity?

[LordHypnos]

For me, the main appeal of shmups is their bare bones simplicity.

This is also a big part of it for me. I've basically always felt this way about video games, too, so it's interesting that it took me this long to discover shmups, but it makes sense, since they're not exactly part of the mainstream, like for example platformers are.

[Doctor Butler]

We shouldn't pander to mainstream audiences. Instead, we need to teach them to elevate themselves to the games' level.

Instead of watering down the difficulty, tacking on cutscenes, and perks, and RPG-elements, and other console-born drivel, we need a game, that is superficially appealing to casual audiences, be it graphically, thematically, etc. But retains the soul of an Arcade-classic; score-mechanics, brief in length, infinite in replay-value. In other words, a real-game.

But, there needs to be an in-depth tutorial, a shmup 101 that explains, not only the games' rules, but the fundamentals of the genre, and why it endears our community so much. We don't want a game that's "accessible", we want a game that changes the audiences attitudes and pre-concieved notions for the better, and explains to them, in detail why these games have a cult following, and why they should love them too.

And if that's not enough, then, hell, I don't fucking know, lost-cause, or some shit, lol.

My point is, while some won't be receptive, some will; we just have to reach them.

[BulletMagnet]

But, there needs to be an in-depth tutorial, a shmup 101 that explains, not only the games' rules, but the fundamentals of the genre, and why it endears our community so much.

A little ways back, at Racketboy's behest I, with this forum's help, attempted something along those lines - I'm also currently chipping away at a "shmups for beginners" followup (the discussion thread for that one is here). It's not exactly grand in scale, but offhand I'm not sure how many larger viable formats exist for material like ours.

[mastermx]

For me, the main appeal of shmups is their bare bones simplicity.

This is also a big part of it for me. I've basically always felt this way about video games, too, so it's interesting that it took me this long to discover shmups, but it makes sense, since they're not exactly part of the mainstream, like for example platformers are.

Simplicity is a big plus. Shmups are awesome because I never have to look at guides to tell me where to go next when I get stuck. As much as I love dark souls, there are moments where the world is so big, that it's tough to figure out how to progress.

[PurpleTheGuy]

That would be quite nice, if the shmup genre did increase in popularity. Of course, I don't want to see the shmup genre "dumbed" down gameplay-wise, no way, I love the challenge the genre offers, and there's nothing like it, especially Bullet Hell shmups of all kinds! That's part of the thrill, especially when you start 1cc-ing these sorts of games, then move to the harder difficulties and/or start learning how to score big on these games! Indeed, let's not take that away, and turn it into some "mainstream" whatever. I simply would like to see more people actually play the shmup games, so I don't feel like the only one to where it seems I'm talking to myself sometimes, and that I could actually have some friendly competition.

It really sucks, when it seems like I'm the only one who actually plays these types of games where I live at, and there's more-or-less nobody who really plays shmup games, let alone know what the word "shmup" or "shoot'em ups" are (Most think of Halo and Call of Duty when they hear this). I've tried to get a few of my friends to know what these games are, and they've expressed their interest, yet, even after a few months have passed, they have yet to actually make the move to play the shmup games I've recommended, like Touhou, Akai Katana, Deathsmiles, DoDonPachi, Espgaluda, Strikers 1945, Shikigami no Shiro, among a great many others I've rattled on to them about. I've even spread word about Caladrius Blaze coming out for the PS3 to them later on this year, all of that, and more. They just come up with half-baked excuses, and then they don't come to the shows I arrange at the arcade place on some Thursdays, where they could have learned more about the shmup genre, and the various games within the shmup genre. I'm not quite sure they will really go to play shmup games, even after what I had said, plenty of times. Sad, but true. And even more disparing, most of everyone who sees the replays I put up at the arcade sometimes freak at the sight of it, and wonder what in the heck is going on, all while not being able to fathom the shmup games when I try to talk to them about it, and I'm not anywhere near the best.

I know only two friends who do play shmups like I do, and a few more that plays only Touhou (I'm trying to get them to see other games besides Touhou, expand their horizons (While it' good that they sort of actually play Touhou, an improvement over just, well, like the music, artworks, merchandise, rattling about fandom nonsense , etc., all while not ever playing the games, they only play casually, and have no serious intent on getting better at Touhou, or shmups, for that matter). As much as I like Touhou and consider it among my favourite games, it ain't the only shmup out there, obviously. I remember quite a few that I used to play when I was little. Touhou was the one that eventually led me to a shmup revival within me, and now, I've, not long ago, after straightening some things out, decided I'd dedicate part of my being to get very good at shmups, increase my power level to new reaches I could've never imagined before, ever. I even play Touhou on gamepads these days, and it felt so much better, and it even augmented my own abilities in shmups in-general, like my power level went up or something. It translated well into other shmups, like Deathsmiles, Akai Katana, Espgaluda, etc. I mean, I'm only starting out compared to many of the folks here, but I already can feel like I'm improving. I can only imagine what the upcoming summer will be like, accomplishment-wise), but that's about it, so it's not all that bad, though there could be more.

Well, anyway, that's my ramble. Don't know if it makes much sense, but yeah. It is really nice to find forums, like Shmups forum and Maidens of the Kaleidoscope.

[Xyga]

I like when a shmup is made of multiple layers of gameplay and difficulty.
1cc, scoring, loops and TLB, advanced scoring, crypto-scoring, variations with different ships and routes, active rank, tricks, modes, etc...

To me a very good shmup is one that's enjoyable in every aspect, if it's too focused on just one like aesthetics or scoring it's bound to end up in the 'gathering dust few weeks after puchase' category, or 'you can only love or hate it' category.

Simplicity AND depht please ! It's an art. ^^

[Squire Grooktook]

One thing that I think is missing from the genre right now, and would do a great deal for popularity and awareness, is a truly well done co-op experience. Something like Jamestown but even more involved and with netplay

Like I've been playing Metal Slug 3 on Steam with a lot of friends lately, and you'd be surprised how playing the game co op can help get people who normally wouldn't be thinking about 1 credit clearing or no missing stages to start genuinely trying to improve over each playthrough. The game is really fun already, and co op adds a nice social aspect that gives people an excuse to play it over again with different friends, and after that it's only natural to start trying to play it better each time, resulting in the game becoming even more addictive and exciting (and than playing it even more, it's a vicious cycle). I'd like to see something like this for shmups, except maybe even better.

Like here are a few bullet points I'd like to see:

Spoiler

-Online co op with good netplay (and if netplay does have hiccups, make sure it's anything but input delay

-Easily available on pc from a well known game distributor (Steam, Desura, whatever. Mostly Steam)

-Art style/aesthetic neither generic (space ships in space) nor divisive (loli's in space) but something genuinely creative and endearing that most people should be able to see the appeal in (like Jamestown)

-Co op is genuinely involved and balanced, and not something tacked on like most Cave co op (again, like Jamestown). Maybe even go so far as to have Co Op be a separate arrange mode from single player with altered stage layouts and enemy patterns to take advantage of 2 players and encourage teamwork for scoring and survival.

-Deep scoring system to measure progress and performance. Online leaderboards too.

-Playable in short bursts. Like 20 minutes for a playthrough, and maybe a second loop or additional stages unlocked by performing well, thus keeping it short in the beginning but also giving something to work for.

-Multiple characters with different play styles, so people can have different team set ups and also replayability.

-Multiple difficulty options, so that both newcomers and veterans can be challenged.

-etc. more stuff I can't think of etc.

I think a truly great co op shmup would do a lot for getting people to appreciate or look kindly on the genre who wouldn't do so otherwise.

[Pretas]

-etc. more stuff I can't think of etc.

Special attacks that require coordination from both players, like the dual charge shots in Raiden Fighters.

[ACSeraph]

My friends all love them some Darius Burst AC even though they don't play shmups. That game is perfectly designed for multiplayer. I was able to 1cc the basic course with them actually. Where's mah port Taito!?

[LordHypnos]

Apart from playing GW2 a LONG ass time ago with my brother and not understanding what to do at all (I bet I was dying every couple seconds, or something), I don't have hands on experience, but it seems to me that the Giga Wing games would make some good coop action. You could use the shield to protect each other from the bullets. Might end up being too easy tho. Same goes for Mars Matrix, except that the controls take more getting used to on account of the way the shield works in that game.

[Doctor Butler]

Instead of a second loop, an "extra" stage, ala Touhou, accessible from the start-up menu. It makes the goal seem more attainable that way.

And co-op, with the Raiden "bulet-spray" thing. That rules.

[ACSeraph]

^I rather like this idea, as I never liked the concept of looping to begin with.

But as a separate hardcore mode with the true ending? That's much more enticing than have a 20 minute grind before every play session of the mode you actually want to play. The grind part of the equation is why I've never been interested in learning second loops.

[NTSC-J]

We shouldn't pander to mainstream audiences. Instead, we need to teach them to elevate themselves to the games' level.

Instead of watering down the difficulty, tacking on cutscenes, and perks, and RPG-elements, and other console-born drivel, we need a game, that is superficially appealing to casual audiences, be it graphically, thematically, etc. But retains the soul of an Arcade-classic; score-mechanics, brief in length, infinite in replay-value. In other words, a real-game.

But, there needs to be an in-depth tutorial, a shmup 101 that explains, not only the games' rules, but the fundamentals of the genre, and why it endears our community so much. We don't want a game that's "accessible", we want a game that changes the audiences attitudes and pre-concieved notions for the better, and explains to them, in detail why these games have a cult following, and why they should love them too.

And if that's not enough, then, hell, I don't fucking know, lost-cause, or some shit, lol.

My point is, while some won't be receptive, some will; we just have to reach them.

This is pretty much what I was going to post. I don't like the approach of changing the games to draw people in. The games are fine, there just needs to be more exposure so that people that would like this style of game find them.

But these games are simply not everyone's cup of Wyndia urine. It seems that a lot of people that play games do it to escape the misery of their day-to-day life. They want to relax, blow someone's head off, respawn, then watch a superhero movie. They don't want to be challenged in their free time, which is what these games do.

I'm mildly offended when I see some Western indie smartphone developer announce their new STG that offers a "twist" on the "shmups formula". I don't want a twist. I want a little ship moving out of the way of little bullets in such a way that I accumulate more digits on the top of the screen. If that doesn't sound like a good time to someone then there are other genres out there, but I like this one and I like the way it is.

[Squire Grooktook]

But these games are simply not everyone's cup of Wyndia urine.

Ha ha ha

I'm mildly offended when I see some Western indie smartphone developer announce their new STG that offers a "twist" on the "shmups formula". I don't want a twist. I want a little ship moving out of the way of little bullets in such a way that I accumulate more digits on the top of the screen. If that doesn't sound like a good time to someone then there are other genres out there, but I like this one and I like the way it is.

Yeah. Part of it imo is that claims like "shmups aren't innovative" or "shmups are all the same" is really complete bullshit for anyone who's really into the genre imo. All the well liked shmups out there by different developers are incredibly diverse and varied compared to eachother. Just in subtle ways that aren't immediately obvious to people who just see the genre as a bunch of retro pew pew games. It's the same with 2d fighters. If you're really into the genre, you know that each developer has a completely different play style and all these games can be fundamentally different experiences from eachother.

[Doctor Butler]

Everything

I can't agree enough with you.

Casual audiences are looking for superficial qualities; graphics, narrative, et al. in a game that's otherwise rather shallow, and almost ego-massaging in it's leniency. In other words, the opposite of a shooting-game. And it's ironic, because a majority of these modern AAA games are virtually indistinguishable. (Apparently, replacing pictures of "bullets" with pictures of "bees" in Bioshock is considered "innovative" in the fps genre.)

The toughest part is getting people to embrace gameplay again. And real gameplay; not skinner-box RPG elements that reward obsessive time-investment in exchange for reducing the challenge; you're supposed to get better at the game as the game gets harder, (this is called a learning curve) instead the game's become easier for you as you "progress", while your inability to play goes unchallenged.

I'm starting to think the Fighters and STGs are the only real games left...

[nasty_wolverine]

I'm starting to think the Fighters and STGs are the only real games left...

and arcade style racers... none of that career bullshit. choose car, choose track, RACE GODAMMIT!!!

[Pretas]

There's scarcely been a good arcade style racer in a long time that hasn't been infected with Burnout-itis, though. I think most of us are worn out on nitrous and demolition derbies at this point.

It's curious that there hasn't been a new Ridge Racer announced for the PS4 or Xbox One. Ever since the Playstation 1, it seems to have been Namco's calling to release at least one Ridge Racer game on nearly every new platform.

The toughest part is getting people to embrace gameplay again. And real gameplay; not skinner-box RPG elements that reward obsessive time-investment in exchange for reducing the challenge; you're supposed to get better at the game as the game gets harder, (this is called a learning curve) instead the game's become easier for you as you "progress", while your inability to play goes unchallenged.

Ginga Force takes a very good approach to this. You can grind for new weapons and ship parts, though you need to gradually unlock them in the shop by clearing stages, and there's no one loadout that's superior in every situation. Stronger sequential upgrades of weapons have the drawback of consuming energy faster. You can also "equip" a number of extra lives to have from the start, but you still have to beat each long stage in one go without continuing, and it requires forgoing other useful pieces of equipment. For purists and competitive players, the Score Attack mode disavows all of this and instead offers a fixed selection of three ships.

[Formless God]

I'm starting to think the Fighters and STGs are the only real games left...

Don't forget rhythm and puzzle.

[Squire Grooktook]

Casual audiences are looking for superficial qualities; graphics, narrative, et al. in a game that's otherwise rather shallow, and almost ego-massaging in it's leniency

That's true, not everyone is into these kinds of games. That being said, ideally if the genre were to get more exposure/convenience/etc. than it would help people who would be willing to get into the genre if they knew about it. And there will always be people like that out there. Shmups will always be niche, but that doesn't mean they have to be obscure IMO.

I'm starting to think the Fighters and STGs are the only real games left...

I'm not sure I can agree with this, myself. I mean, if you look back at the "golden age" of gaming back on snes or ps1 or whatever, the average game wasn't that much harder than the ones now. There were more arcade style games, but there were still a helluva lot of platformers/rpg's/adventure games that did not take dedication to complete. Overall, I don't think average difficulty level has dropped that much over time.

[Some-Mist]

seems like the self-introduction thread has been blowing up quite a bit, but I've also noticed that some of the old members in the members list don't post as much as they used to.

a steady influx of new players filling the holes that the older players are leaving in the community.

I think arcade gaming in general has been seeing an increase in popularity though - at least in my area. It's nuts how many of these retro beercades have been popping up around Chicago. Granted, their game selection is pretty trite with the exception of some of the pinballs... but it seems like there is some new interest in arcade gaming which would sort of go hand in hand with STGs.

I agree with the: "lets not change the genre/games and instead try to push the original formula to the newcomers". Maybe ikaruga won't be the start and end of the genre for many people as it has in the past.

[PurpleTheGuy]

Alright, well, after a few months of talking to some people about shmups, and seeing how all of that effort pretty much went to waste, by way of almost all of those same people merely saying, "I'll play it sometime, you know?", "I'll... Check it out.", etc., all while nothing good came of it (A few months pass, and they haven't tried any of the games I talked about), yeah, I can see why it's quite hard to get anybody into shmups in-general. A few months ago, I used to think that anybody can get into shmups, and now, well, I can see how hard it is. *sigh* It sucks, because those people I talked to seemed genuinely interested in the genre, and they even took notes, asked questions, took pictures of the game manuals I showed to them, all of that and more, but it seems they may have been lying about all of that, I feel. I have a strong sense of this I sure hope I will be proven wrong by them in the near future, but somehow, I'm not very optimistic about this.

The funny thing is, many of those same people, of whom I showed replays of many of the shmup games out there of all kinds by different players on YouTube, and even showing them some of my own playthroughs for a more personal and direct discussion on my part to them to where they could ask questions, believe that they could top all of those, all while saying that nervously, with the nervous laugh to end it off (ex. "I... um, think I can beat you," "That player was merely using some tricks. It's a trick, that's all!" (Of course, they didn't quite understand any of the games I showed them, they didn't really bother, even after I explained it to them)), lol. Well, I guess it's better than outright freaking out at the very sight of these sorts of games, as many have done.

[EmperorIng]

Depends on which games you showed them. The word "trick" leads me to think you showed them Cave games.

[Doctor Butler]

Show them a game that looks easy, first. Raiden is harder than quite a few Bullet-Hells, but it visually appears to be more manageable (less bullets).

[PurpleTheGuy]

Depends on which games you showed them. The word "trick" leads me to think you showed them Cave games.

Well, sort-of (I showed one cave game to them, Deathsmiles), all I did was show them some of my own Touhou replays (A few Hard mode replays, and a few extra stages, all 1cc, of course), along with a replay of me 1cc-ing Deathsmiles (I picked rank 3 on all six stages, didn't pick the extra stage(s) for that particular replay, and then beat the final stage and boss), and those are what are generally considered to be on the easier side of shmups in-general, all of which I explained to them, not to mention I'm not nearly one of the best, and not where I want to be yet, with much to improve on before I get there, along with playing many more shmups, and getting good at them as well.

Nonetheless, they couldn't believe it, and one of those people I talked about actually thought I was "cheating" and using "tricks" at one point (The same accusation they made when I showed them replays of those better than I on YouTube), even after I explained the dodge mechanics, the scoring mechanics, the techniques, etc. It was pretty funny, since that was happening all while he also claimed he could beat me, which he said nervously after the replay, and I must say, he looked rather stunned, if I do say so myself.

Incidentally, the only shmup (It was from me that he first learned of the word "shmups") he (That one particular guy who thought I was "cheating" and using "tricks") recalls ever playing was Space Invaders, and that was it.

[EmperorIng]

I think the main point is that the games you showed him allow you to pretty much pass through the bullets visually, which looks like you are cheating - you're touching the bullets and not dying.

I think it would be different if you showed them a Raiden game, or G-Darius, or even Ikaruga, where the rules of the game are far clearer and dare-I-say intuitive.

[PurpleTheGuy]

Show them a game that looks easy, first. Raiden is harder than quite a few Bullet-Hells, but it visually appears to be more manageable (less bullets).

I think the main point is that the games you showed him allow you to pretty much pass through the bullets visually, which looks like you are cheating - you're touching the bullets and not dying.

I think it would be different if you showed them a Raiden game, or G-Darius, or even Ikaruga, where the rules of the game are far clearer and dare-I-say intuitive.

Yeah, that might just be the case. Perhaps maybe showing something that doesn't look overwhelming and Bullet Hell-ish, like Strikers 1945, or the aforementioned games Doctor Butler and EmperorIng suggested for beginners, could be a good idea. In those games (I can't really speak for Ikaruga, I haven't played that one yet, unfortunately. I should, very soon. I'm familiar with the former two, Raiden and G-Darius, to some extent) you can't quite graze so to speak, compared to, say, ZUN's games or Cave's games, etc., though I'm sure this is very debatable, but I guess what's being said here is that it's more like your hitbox is rather big compared to, well, you know, and you really don't want to get near any of the bullets in those ones.

I wonder... Perhaps Eschatos could also be an excellent game to introduce to the new people, though unfortunately, I don't currently have the game yet, and do really want to play it (Darn it. Well, it'll be soon enough. Hmm, let's see here... Muchi Muchi Pork & Pink Sweets or Eschatos/Ginga Force wonder pack...), and be what could be considered good at it before showing a replay off and talking about it. That would be quite the game to introduce, especially when I do work to get a 1cc in that one, once I get it, at least.

[LordHypnos]

Eschatos might be a good idea. It has some nice graphical effects going on, and has a few space invaders type spots in it, as well as sparser bullet patterns (IIRC) compared to 2hu or CAVE

[mastermx]

@Purpletheguy

I wouldn't show people touhou unless they were already into shmups. Ikaruga is an excellent introduction though it's mechanic is unique. But games like sonic wings, raiden and other big hit box games do good well with newbies. Also if you are gonna show cave, show dodonpachi or mushi, people will love the aesthetic and will love the idea of bullet hell, especially if you explain to them properly about the small hit box, and that no obstacle is insurmountable.

P. S. That guy that said he can beat you and accused you of cheating sounds like a troll. I wouldn't take him too seriously.

[PurpleTheGuy]

@Purpletheguy

I wouldn't show people touhou unless they were already into shmups. Ikaruga is an excellent introduction though it's mechanic is unique. But games like sonic wings, raiden and other big hit box games do good well with newbies. Also if you are gonna show cave, show dodonpachi or mushi, people will love the aesthetic and will love the idea of bullet hell, especially if you explain to them properly about the small hit box, and that no obstacle is insurmountable.

P. S. That guy that said he can beat you and accused you of cheating sounds like a troll. I wouldn't take him too seriously.

Yeah, point taken. I guess I'll probably show more of the other shmups (Especially when I physically get them), and maybe, for the moment, less of Cave's games and ZUN's games, and Bullet Hells in-general. Perhaps they are a bit too intimidating for the new folk to swallow (I guess they don't call it a niche genre for no reason, I suppose), though, it probably won't stop me from talking about them anyway, but it's something I'll consider. On that topic, I really should also try to get over my anxiety to play in public, and not just show a replay or a recorded one of mine's, to where I could actually do a real live play at the arcade place, to give it an actual human face to these games to show that, yeah, these are humanly doable. I'm going to work and train pretty hard at getting my overall skill level up this summer, indeed, play catch-up for a couple lost years I should have had, and get to where I can get confident enough to play in public, and not risk embarrassing myself, and to an extension, you guys here at shmups forums and then at MotK, in-public out of my own nervousness and such.

Well, to be fair, he actually did say he was kidding around. It was clear he didn't understand what went on, and he seemed a bit nervous, though he didn't admit it. He still showed interest, at any rate, and asked a lot of questions. On the contrary, it actually excited me that he did say that, since it was the first time, for me at least, that someone actually physically issued a challenge against me in shmups around where I live, to where it actually surprised me , and the prospects of this were pretty cool for me! It was cool enough to explain some of the mechanics behind these games, and talk about them to other interested people! So, I saw no reason, at that time, to hold anything back.

Alas, two and a half months have passed, and that guy still hasn't played any of them, despite my recommendations on what to start out with, me explaining about shmups and what they are, and so forth. All he says is, "I'll... play them," "I'll... get to playing them, whenever," "I'll... check them out, man," etc. I do wonder if he is being truthful about being interested in shmups, or if he is actually lying to me about this, since I'm beginning to suspect the latter, and that is a bit annoying, especially since this is becoming apparent to me, even though this shouldn't really be bothering me. I did, after-all, believe, for a moment, that I just inspired a new shmup player, but the possible lying part is what really gets me, even after all that. Hopefully, he proves me wrong soon enough (I really hope he does), and actually does pick them up, but oh well. For the few others, of whom I introduced to the genre, though, there is a bit of hope and promise. I even did inspire a couple of the guys at the arcade place I go to into getting back into shmups, so progress was made, on my part.

[NTSC-J]

I do wonder if he is being truthful about being interested in shmups, or if he is actually lying to me about this, since I'm beginning to suspect the latter, and that is a bit annoying, especially since this is becoming apparent to me, even though this shouldn't really be bothering me. I did, after-all, believe, for a moment, that I just inspired a new shmup player, but the possible lying part is what really gets me, even after all that. Hopefully, he proves me wrong soon enough (I really hope he does), and actually does pick them up, but oh well.

It doesn't sound to me like he's lying. I think he probably feels sort of dumbfounded by these games and wants to seem like he knows his stuff to maintain some status ("Bro, do you hang glide? You hang glide, right?" "Huh? Oh, yea, sure man!"). He also may just not want to hurt your feelings since he can tell you really dig them but he thinks they're shit. You may have just been friendzoned, shmup-style.

But like I said before, most people are just not going to be into these games. They can watch how they're supposed to be played, try them out for themselves, but something just won't click for them. They're hard, they're short, they're like-super-nintendo-graphics-but-the-drawings-are-good-even-though-it's-like-really-old.

I admire your efforts, but it sounds like maybe you're a young guy hanging out with other young guys (the aforementioned cheating accuser sounds like he might still be in junior high?) and these guys are even less likely to go for these games after being conditioned with modern gameplay styles. I really think that if these games don't grab you after just a brief introduction of how to play them (not continuing, watching superplays) then it's a lost cause.