Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[Fudoh]

something like that, yes. Still WAY cheaper than shipping back the monitor. How are the control units on ebay.com ? $35 ?

[Taiyaki]

something like that, yes. Still WAY cheaper than shipping back the monitor. How are the control units on ebay.com ? $35 ?

More like 40-50 at the moment. That's what I'll do. Thanks.

[Ed Oscuro]

I would look as far as possible inside the unit for busted stuff. It does rather seem that the sockets for the cable are at least somewhat good, though I wonder if all the connections are okay and unbroken. Would be easy for some solder joint to crack in shipping.

[Taiyaki]

I would look as far as possible inside the unit for busted stuff. It does rather seem that the sockets for the cable are at least somewhat good, though I wonder if all the connections are okay and unbroken. Would be easy for some solder joint to crack in shipping.

That sounds like a great idea. I'll open both the monitor and controller up and see if I can spot anything unusual. If it's just a solder joint crack even I can fix it (hopefully).

[Ed Oscuro]

Excellent - while you're in there, also cast an eye towards the various passive components on the PCBs to see if anything looks unusual, like bulging or damaged capacitors, blackened resistors or diodes, and so on. Possibly a real repair tech could tell you exactly what's going on and it might be something that's not easy to fix...but if you can rule that out, that much the better.

[Taiyaki]

Thanks. That sounds like a good idea I will do that.

I went through the controller in it's entirety this afternoon. I didn't spot anything unusual although it was rather knotted up (the wires I mean). I was trying to figure out which ones went from the non functioning buttons but the very last pieces of circuit board attached to the buttons don't come out or at least I couldn't figure out how, and I didn't want to break it. Meanwhile I placed an order for a new controller as the seller is willing to refund for that. So I'll find out soon whether that was the problem.

Tomorrow I'll go through the monitor itself examine and clean it with some compressed air.

By the way when hooking a system up through the default 4x bnc rgb on the BVM, does it run on whatever channel is currently active? Does it run on channel 1? Or does it run on a seperate channel? I might try hooking something up if I can test it out without the controller.

[Fudoh]

Each channel can be configured for different inputs and/or color formats, so there's no way of telling. Standard setting should be YPbPr and not RGBs.

[niall]

So it looks like I might have the opportunity to buy a BVM-20F1A (Australian version - southern hemisphere tube, yep that's a real thing).

It's a tad expensive compared to finding them in the USA or UK - looks like it'll set me back about AUD$500 + shipping.

I kind of already know the answer, I'll probably get it - though I'd hoped to spend much less like $250-400 maximum, but it does sound like one of the last ones decommissioned here in Australia, and it sounds like it probably has quite low hours on it too.

I'm a bit addicted to CRTs now, and while the KV-2900 is nice I just have to have a PVM and/or BVM at some point - this may be my last chance at getting a decent one. Just can't to back to a non-Trinitron tube now - as nice as I've gotten this 32" Loewe it's no reference set, and that's really what I need now - a reference to calibrate the others off (signal generator built-in) but also to know what the height of CRT technology achieved .. and how each different technology differed, how 240p/480p looks on all of it etc.

Comments? It has to go on a Credit Card, totally unplanned for event but I think I have to take the opportunity. What do you guys think?

[Taiyaki]

All I'd say is be sure it's shipped in a tank packaging.

[Ed Oscuro]

Comments? It has to go on a Credit Card, totally unplanned for event but I think I have to take the opportunity. What do you guys think?

Yes, it's a good idea to buy tubes made for your hemisphere. Probably there is some adjustment you could make to set up a Northern Hemisphere CRT for your area - some sets reportedly have this in a menu. If unlucky, it might have required moving magnets inside.

It might be more expensive to buy it locally, but buying from overseas wouldn't have saved any money after the shipping turned out to be outlandish, and the item arrived broken.

[Taiyaki]

Opened up the tv today. I found nothing wrong with it (didn't see any bulging on capacitors, no leaks and no cracks), but I'm no expert. It was very dusty so I used a dust cloth and some compressed air around parts.

I tried connecting something up on the 4 scart lines with sync (the default module?) and got no picture despite being locked on channel 1. Is that bad news?
I didn't try with terminators on the video outs though.

EDIT: I remembered Fudoh saying each channel can be set up, so I guess maybe the unit has the main lines set up on a different channel perhaps. Am I going to have to go through all 90 channels to find it? lol

[niall]

So I've hand-calibrated the 29" Trinitron KV-2900 and next to it the 32" Loewe Calida (no 100Hz on RGB!!!) - got colour temperature and RGB levels about right, brightness and contrast about right - everything looking as consistent between them as I could. Without a colorimeter, and pots on the front, there's only so much you can do - this took quite a few hours over a few days to get them feeling about right. To my eyes, they're now at a level where we can compare them:



A Trinitron aperture grille, to my eyes, gives a more consistent scanline - but the Loewe I believe used some variation on the standard slot-mask like most other CRTs before Sony's patents expired:



So, with that in mind, let's take an objective look. Obviously my iPhone is not up to the job, but locking focus did make a huge difference - good enough for now, until I can investigate a better camera. I've been thinking about checking out this new GoPro Hero4 that does 4K and 120fps 1080p - mounted with a hood (to prevent reflections on the screen) this could be a great way to capture the 'essence' of a CRT, the physical presence that you just can't get without being there. Maybe 4K will be up to the challenge, but I'm guessing 8-10K is probably a sweet spot as far as capturing all of the variation that these analogue beasts can produce. I'd love to setup a permanent capture rig, and use the Crosspoint to view on another display while I play - could be a fun project, do some live streaming like the guys at http://www.twitch.tv/STGWeekly!

So anyway, onto the comparison shots. Again, apologies my iPhone is simply not up to the task - but you get the general idea:

First up here's Ryu from SFII-Turbo on the Super Famicom - colours are off due to the camera/60hz I guess, but you can see the level of detail that these Trinitrons give every scanline - it's just breath-taking:



The far right shot is quite blurry, but it compensates for the convergence issues on this set - so I think it gives a good general indication of what a tightly converged RGB signal on a good Trinitron feels like in person. Even up close, the Trinitron just continues to amaze me - I never had one as a kid, used an RF signal into an old National (Australian brand) piece of junk, so getting back into retro gaming and CRTs the last few months has been amazing - I never saw this much detail on these games, so it's like I'm playing them for the first time!

Onto the Trinitron vs. Loewe comparison - this is a bit unfair, as the minimum distance from the screen for the 32" Loewe is quite a bit further back than the Trinitron, but you can see just how different the signals are up close. Further back - I'm actually very, very pleased by the Loewe as it's not going through their horrible 100Hz processing, overall convergence is great, and calibration via the Service Menu is pretty quick and easy as I'm so familiar with these sets:



Hopefully some more comparison shots later in the thread, with better equipment and conditions, but I just wanted to share some of the physical presence that these things give - I just don't get the same feeling from an LCD panel, I'm not sure I'll ever really pursue it until we hit 60fps 4K ...

Cheers!

[LEGENOARYNINLIA]

Even up close, the Trinitron just continues to amaze me - I never had one as a kid, used an RF signal into an old National (Australian brand) piece of junk, so getting back into retro gaming and CRTs the last few months has been amazing - I never saw this much detail on these games, so it's like I'm playing them for the first time!

National = Panasonic

[Ed Oscuro]

Go Pro devices are made for wide-angle coverage, not suitable for capturing a TV unless you put it right in front, and then you might still get some problems with distortion from the wide angle.

Very few people have the ability to play back 4K video, and it will eat hard drive space like crazy.

[niall]

National = Panasonic

Ah yeah that rings a bell - did they merge marketing at some point or something? I did like the wood veneer, but when I see earlier generation Trinitrons I end up admiring Sony's craftsmanship on even more levels - and opening their chassis' just Wow. Loewe were known for design, and there's a modern elegance and efficiency which I admire there (space efficiency with all the digital components for example), but seeing the Trinitron internals evolve up through consumer 80s/90s to PVM and BVMs it seems evolutionary - truly driving the entire industry right until the last! Reading about demand bringing the pro factory back online .. Now I understand Why.

Go Pro devices are made for wide-angle coverage, not suitable for capturing a TV unless you put it right in front, and then you might still get some problems with distortion from the wide angle.

Yep I'm more thinking along the lines of optical lenses and manual focus, in front of a good 4K 60Hz sensor - account for both the camera's distortion and the Trinitron's horizontal concavity. I'm more asking what could do it, than trying to answer the question myself, as I don't know what gear would work best but I'd love to find out!

Very few people have the ability to play back 4K video, and it will eat hard drive space like crazy.

It can be re-encoded down to 1080p in the short-term, keeping the higher quality for preservation/archival until the market is there. It's essentially the argument that no-one would ever transmit a DVD over The Internet, or a Blu-Ray, etc. Consider me forward thinking, I'm more thinking of the day when the last known working tubes become irreparably damaged, and we'll be the last (and for most of us the first) generation to experience this particular technological pinnacle. Archiving (or translating/emulating) the original analogue display output, in whatever modern capture tech exists during those last days of the Cathode Ray Tube, will probably become a hobby in itself for some of us

EDIT: I mean look at The Ryu comparison - the hard edges on vertical lines due to the grille vs edge bleed on both sides of equivalent lines on the Loewe. And the variability, the ramp up over time - the granularity on this Trinitron is breath-taking at the centre where I've optimised convergence.. ENGINEERS!

[Ed Oscuro]

Yep I'm more thinking along the lines of optical lenses and manual focus, in front of a good 4K 60Hz sensor - account for both the camera's distortion and the Trinitron's horizontal concavity. I'm more asking what could do it, than trying to answer the question myself, as I don't know what gear would work best but I'd love to find out!

4K video cameras for pro and SLR (i.e. C500, 1D C) - the type that accept different lenses - start at many thousands of dollars, though if you have the money it is easy to find good solutions there - even fixed-lens camcorders with 4K start at many thousands of dollars. Finding a good enough lens for 4K should be no problem, at least: The old TS-E 80mm from Canon should be only around $800 (and probably cheaper lenses would do fine as well for imaging a CRT, which isn't the world's most demanding application on lenses).

If money was no object, I would get something like a large format 4K SLR body with a good lens, naturally placed some distance away from the tube. But even with that, I would probably wait a while for 4K tech to become more common, if for nothing else to ensure that the video quality is good.

Unfortunately we still have to deal with the incompatibility between framerates (in three places: display, recording device, and playback device); even if you record at the framerate of the source (and hope that good multi-framerate tech is there in the future), I don't think you can genlock random old consoles to these cameras. You would probably need to look carefully at the frames coming out of a camera's HDMI input for signs of dimming on the screen due to the display and your camera not being synchronized. Not sure if you could keep that offscreen (i.e., missing the vblank period) if one source's timing reference has developed a bit of jitter (which might be possible with the old consoles). Perhaps this isn't impossible, but it would be challenging.

Personally I think it will be very cheap to do this in the future - no need to rush to do that now. What you're suggesting really would take a huge budget, though it's not impossible. I wouldn't even bother unless there was a superplay to complement it.

For now, I think it's a good idea to continue to focus our energies on preservation while the price points on that 4K (or whatever's just over the horizon) come down a ways. There have been huge developments in the last 10 years - that was a time when transmitting a DVD over the internet was still a novel thing, and YouTube didn't even exist. In ten years, I don't expect attrition of display devices owned by careful users to be that significant...though part of my plan is to do as much gaming as possible off of the tubes, to preserve them.

[Taiyaki]

Anyone know how to remove modules on a bvm? I tried turning the two knobs on top and buttom of a module and pulling but that doesn't seem to work.

Also do the digital modules with straight connections like the one for the control unit work with control units too?

Still trying to learn the ins and outs while waiting for the new BKM-10R.

[niall]

Unfortunately we still have to deal with the incompatibility between framerates (in three places: display, recording device, and playback device); even if you record at the framerate of the source (and hope that good multi-framerate tech is there in the future), I don't think you can genlock random old consoles to these cameras. You would probably need to look carefully at the frames coming out of a camera's HDMI input for signs of dimming on the screen due to the display and your camera not being synchronized. Not sure if you could keep that offscreen (i.e., missing the vblank period) if one source's timing reference has developed a bit of jitter (which might be possible with the old consoles). Perhaps this isn't impossible, but it would be challenging.

Software's my thing - filtering out affected frames sounds fairly trivial, and if you're talking 120fps or 240fps then you wouldn't be looking at total loss either: you could re-construct most if not all of the original frame, or worst-case look at feeding any new data retrieved into a 3 frame extrapolation or merge. Not hard to achieve a first pass - approaching optimal results can be left for later.

Personally I think it will be very cheap to do this in the future - no need to rush to do that now.

I agree, I'm more interested in putting the idea out there - as a long-term goal to aim towards. Ultimately, outliers aside, all we're really talking about here could be reduced down to defining a set of CRT phosphor/filter combination presets, in software. Observations and patterns will lead to reductions in complexity, and hints towards a computational solution of the problem - presenting an optimally converged image with perfect geometry etc. (or parameterised/randomised imperfection towards the edges). A Trinitron preset, with configuration options, a triad preset, offset shadow masks etc. I reckon 8-10K could be indistinguishable, through a curved optical lens.

In ten years, I don't expect attrition of display devices owned by careful users to be that significant...though part of my plan is to do as much gaming as possible off of the tubes, to preserve them.

Me too, but I'd like as many people as possible to be in a position to appreciate, and celebrate, the engineering that went into CRTs, at any point in the future. I think they're marvellous, and ultimately when the technology to accurately emulate their display qualities finally exists, I'd just want to be sure that we have a sufficient library of reference captures. I'm not just talking about a BVM-for-all here, but being able to replicate as many of these high-voltage analog designs, with all of their quirks and imperfections, as is possible. Most of all - it would be a lot of fun trying!

[Jademalo]

Just went to pick up my BVM-20F1E, got it back and checked the hours.
Hoooo mama

http://i.imgur.com/u1tuI0n.jpg - big image so there's a link

Damn this monitor is incredible, it looks absolutely stunning =p
The only issue I'm having is that it feels like the image is "shimmering" ever so slightly. I'll give it another pass but convergence seems good, sync from my Mega Drive seems nice and solid, and the colours look fantastic. The shimmering is a strange one, if you look at it closely its like the lines are vibrating slightly with a 240p signal. I don't know if theres any options hidden away in here to potentially correct that, or even what it exactly is. Heck, I might be looking into it too closely, lol. If anyone has any advice I'd appreciate it.

Other than that, the monitor is absolutely incredible. I'm obscenely happy that I've managed to pick one up, all I have to do now is wait on a 30p rca connector to hook up sound! Damn Easter Weekend!

[Taiyaki]

EDIT; oh ok, shimmering means shaky picture up and down a bit? I thought Fudoh said that shouldn't happen when something's hooked up though. Must be something in the settings you can tweak for that.

[Jademalo]

EDIT; oh ok, shimmering means shaky picture up and down a bit? I thought Fudoh said that shouldn't happen when something's hooked up though. Must be something in the settings you can tweak for that.

Yeah, it's only a movement of about a third of a line, but it's noticeable if you're close. It's kind of like a vibration, it's hard to explain. It's most visible on my mega drive, which is using clean sync from the console + RGB. That's mainly because the only other sources I have at present are interlaced and not very comparable

Edit: test patterns do the same

[Taiyaki]

GOOD news, the new BKM10R came in. My BVM works!

Thanks to Ed Oscuro, Fudoh and everyone else who wrote here giving me advice on the problem.

So anyway I tried the scart too and I didn't see any shimmering with the Sega Saturn. I don't have the Mega Drive cable you're talking about yet, is it the one from retro console accessories on ebay? MD1? I was going to buy one of those for my MD. For now I can just say Saturn scart doesn't appear to have any probs and I will try Snes and PS shortly since I have those cables too.

I do have a question though. How do you get the channels with double digits? When I press say 94, I get channel 9 and then 4. I managed a few times to get double channels pressing randomly but most of the time it won't work. Is there a way to go channel up and down like on a consumer tv?

[Ed Oscuro]

@ Taiyaki: Congrats!

if you're talking 120fps or 240fps then you wouldn't be looking at total loss either:

Again, we're a good ways away from 120fps being mainstream (less-than-many-thousands-of-$) in video cameras, especially in 4K cameras.

[NightSprinter]

Got a couple of questions regarding the topic. First off, as I own an NEC XM2960, and have already begun acquiring SCART cables (one with raw sync for the Saturn, and one that will need an LM1881 as an interim for the OG Xbox) would having a BNC adapter with the sync stripper be of detriment to raw sync cables?

Also, a few months ago I picked up a beautiful RCA Dimensia television (model RVM2730, chassis model CTC140AK) at a thrift store for a mere ten dollars. Needs minor cap replacements and possible flyback (the 15KHz squeal is a bit louder than I am accustomed to), but noticed it does have a SCART socket (or "EIA-MultiPort Stereo"). Powering on my Saturn with the cable connected just results in a quick flash of blue. I've read conflicting reports over various sites that it can or cannot support analog RGB, but the basic schematic stickers in the back cover for the CTC140 series specifically mentions both inputs for the RGB lines and a component for "RGB switching (when needed)". For how fantastic this CRT looks (and SOUNDS) for an NTSC set, would it be worth getting a local friend that works on CRTs to take a crack at it to get RGB inputs working again?

[Taiyaki]

@ Taiyaki: Congrats!

Thanks.

By the way, is it better to turn these units (PVM/BVM) off in the back or just the standby button in the front?

I also have another question, is the contrast and brightness inversed on PVM and BVM units like they were on consumer tv sets? As in actual brightness of the display is controlled by the contrast knob?

[Ed Oscuro]

By the way, is it better to turn these units (PVM/BVM) off in the back or just the standby button in the front?

Whatever turns it full off. I unplug mine when I'm done with it to protect it from random electrical surges.

[Fudoh]

I do have a question though. How do you get the channels with double digits? When I press say 94, I get channel 9 and then 4. I managed a few times to get double channels pressing randomly but most of the time it won't work. Is there a way to go channel up and down like on a consumer tv?

When you start with 1-9 you directly end up on that channel. For any other channel, start with a 0. Basically it's three-digit channels. So 94 is "0 9 4".

[Jademalo]

So anyway I tried the scart too and I didn't see any shimmering with the Sega Saturn. I don't have the Mega Drive cable you're talking about yet, is it the one from retro console accessories on ebay? MD1? I was going to buy one of those for my MD. For now I can just say Saturn scart doesn't appear to have any probs and I will try Snes and PS shortly since I have those cables too.

It's the one from retrogamingcables.co.uk for mega drive 2.
I'm not entirely sure what to do about this, because I'm not even sure where the issue is coming from, or if it's even an issue. I can only describe it as the lines not being entirely stable, the image seems to be synced fairly well.

[Traveller]

Hey all.

I've recently started to take an interest in getting a PVM or something, there is one near me that apparently has under 10,000 hours on it, the guy isn't 100% sure, but a BVM he got from the same place had around 7000 on it.

Anyway, I am quite a novice at any sort of calibration etc. How hard is it to make some minor adjustments if necessary? Also, any tips or advice for a newcomer?

Thanks.

[Taiyaki]

Thanks Ed and Fudoh for the tips. I got the channels working and will be turning it all off from now on.

Anyway, I am quite a novice at any sort of calibration etc. How hard is it to make some minor adjustments if necessary? Also, any tips or advice for a newcomer?

Thanks.

I'm a novice at calibrating as well, I think calibration is very hard but at least it's possible with these monitors. I spent an hour and still didn't get perfect calibration. There's supossed to be a color pattern on these monitors (often pages on ebay show them with that pattern on) but I can't find it on the channels from 91-99, they all show up as various grey patterns or cross/ dot hatches. I'm also not sure whether contrast is actually brightness and brightness contrast as it is on consumer sets, so I'm also stuck there.

It's the one from retrogamingcables.co.uk for mega drive 2.
I'm not entirely sure what to do about this, because I'm not even sure where the issue is coming from, or if it's even an issue. I can only describe it as the lines not being entirely stable, the image seems to be synced fairly well.

I don't think that's normal. I tried three consoles (snes, ps and sat) with scart cables and none of them had this problem (the image is completely solid and stable). It might be worth contacting retrogamingcables to let them know of this issue. By the way I notice there's a setting that asks for region in the setup menu, did you put pal (if you're using a pal system)?