Just me or is Daifukkatsu poorly balanced for survival?

[Aleksei]

Play Ketsuipachi, much more fun, no autobomb.

[casualcoder]

All of the more recent Cave games starting with Deathsmiles have a very unbalanced survival curve, usually making it easy to get to the last stage/boss with no-miss, only to abruptly ramp up the difficulty. I don't know what the survival bonuses are for all of these games but it's pretty meager in most cases which means survival is not really a reward and the games are built with a stronger emphasis on score and risk/reward which is where the challenge is shifted to instead.

EDIT: I just realized people may jump on me for saying "all" considering SDOJ and Pink Sweets could be considered on the list. I haven't even played SDOJ yet but, yeah, lets just say its the trend with Cave's recent development style.

[broken harbour]

Geez I must suck lemons at this game, I find DFK insanely difficult starting at stage 3.

At no point did I consider the game 'easy'.

[casualcoder]

Maybe 'easy' is a misapplied term. Its certainly a lot easier than past games of DDP/Ketsui

[Furry Fox Jet Pilot]

I find this game to be the easiest out of all the Donpachi games. The fact that even I can make it to Stage 5 without losing a life must really be saying something. I have to agree though, that the game is a piece of cake up until Stage 5, where those damn spinning laser wheels always get me killed. Very odd difficulty spike indeed.

[kathy]

If there were just a couple of them I think they would have been a nice touch to the game. As everyone already knows they went overboard though and made a real mess of it. Stage 5 is also too long and 1 is too short IMO...

Despite those things DFK is in my top five favorite games

[To Far Away Times]

A bit "meh" compared to most of CAVE's lineup


What I'd do to fix it:

• Remove auto bomb
• Fix the generally sloppy production (stage one doesn't feel finished, stage 5 drags on too long)
• Remove the robot lolis. I never asked for this.
• Easier and completely different stage 5
• Revise bullet patterns to be more "organized"/"iconic" like previous DDP games rather than a random bunch of shit

[Formless God]

stage one doesn't feel finished
Easier and completely different stage 5
"iconic" like previous DDP games
rather than a random bunch of shit

If you already have/are planning a career in shooting game development, I sincerely suggest that you reconsider it.
As for the autobomb issue, it's called "play a type that doesn't have autobombs".

[To Far Away Times]

stage one doesn't feel finished
Easier and completely different stage 5
"iconic" like previous DDP games
rather than a random bunch of shit

If you already have/are planning a career in shooting game development, I sincerely suggest that you reconsider it.
As for the autobomb issue, it's called "play a type that doesn't have autobombs".

I don't make STGs but my complaints are hardly unique. DFK is a bit of a mess. Feel free to attempt a rebuttal with some thought put into it. But a drive by post like the one you just made isn't going to help your cause.

[Skykid]

A bit "meh" compared to most of CAVE's lineup


What I'd do to fix it:

• Remove auto bomb
• Fix the generally sloppy production (stage one doesn't feel finished, stage 5 drags on too long)
• Remove the robot lolis. I never asked for this.
• Easier and completely different stage 5
• Revise bullet patterns to be more "organized"/"iconic" like previous DDP games rather than a random bunch of shit

Although I don't disagree with your overall feeling about the game, some of your list just indicates you haven't played it enough.

Stage 5 isn't hard at all, esp. by Cave standards. It's just the laser wheels that need serious practice and hyper timing, or else they strip away your life stock.

Stage one is pretty finely honed IMO, feels good to go Ura route and full chain it, while eking points along the way. If anything I'd say stage two's boss cannon trick, requiring delicate patience and precision for a game breaking score is more sloppy.

The bullets certainly aren't a random bunch of shit, you're just supposed to Hyper where needs be and in the latter half of the stage learn the patterns (which aren't anywhere near as intense when not hypering.)

Autobombs in general, loli mechs and a fractured overall game design are fair comment though.

[nasty_wolverine]

Autobombs in general,

as someone said before, use a type that doesnt have autobomb (power in vanilla, just turn autobomb off in BL)

and a fractured overall game design are fair comment though.

not really, the games very easy for just survival and brutal for scoring. i think thats pretty good balance. anyone who says that the game is too easy is not playing for score (true for both vanilla and BL)

loli mechs

I never understood how people have problems with this game, when there is deathsmiles, pink sweets, mmp and the dress system in SDOJ.

tbh, i wouldnt say this is a great game on the same tiers as DDP or DOJ, but its a pretty damn good game which i am more than happy to have spent money on.

[Bananamatic]

not really, the games very easy for just survival and brutal for scoring. i think thats pretty good balance. anyone who says that the game is too easy is not playing for score (true for both vanilla and BL)

2 loops
you cleared 1 loop

[Erppo]

If anything I'd say stage two's boss cannon trick, requiring delicate patience and precision for a game breaking score is more sloppy.

Really, what? The midboss is the only reason stage 2 isn't completely worthless (would that be better?) and even if you do it perfectly, the stage is still not worth all that much. How is that anywhere near "game breaking"?

---

Also are there seriously people who want a longer stage 1?

[Formless God]

Feel free to attempt a rebuttal with some thought put into it.

Gimping anything is stupid. The reasonable thing to do is making the other four stages harder.

I don't even know where to begin with the last two points. What are the random patterns in DFK? Why does DFK have to be "more like previous DDP games" when it doesn't even play under the same rules? And the word "iconic" just stinks. When designing a game, you go with whatever works with that particular game's rules and mechanics instead of wanting it to look like and play like other games for the sake of preserving the series' ~legacy~. It's secondary talk, sorry.

[Zerst]

Power style is the only remotely enjoyable way to play DFK, and it still sucks because you get no bombs at all and (at least it feels like) the invincibility window after death is shorter. So you no miss to stage 5 and then die 5 times in about two seconds during the laser wheels.

[Bananamatic]

Power style is the only remotely enjoyable way to play DFK, and it still sucks because you get no bombs at all and (at least it feels like) the invincibility window after death is shorter. So you no miss to stage 5 and then die 5 times in about two seconds during the laser wheels.

IIRC power style does get autobombs, you get one stocked when you pick up a bomb, plus faster hyper gain and much stronger cancelling shot(pretty much disregards rank on the 2nd loop)

Power style is easier to no miss no bomb with while Strong/Bomb are easier to simply clear with while making mistakes.
Strong/Bomb scoring is a load of shit though with the suiciding involved in the 2nd loop just to drop the rank.

[Skykid]

If anything I'd say stage two's boss cannon trick, requiring delicate patience and precision for a game breaking score is more sloppy.

Really, what? The midboss is the only reason stage 2 isn't completely worthless (would that be better?) and even if you do it perfectly, the stage is still not worth all that much. How is that anywhere near "game breaking"?

It's sloppy design having an unintentional scoring bug that you need to learn to exploit each time if you're playing for score. The same could be said of similar nonsense in other games too; Pink Sweets and SDOJ for instance.

Just because it exists, doesn't mean it should. Regardless, that's only one thing: Daifukkatsu is far from Cave's best honed work for numerous reasons.

[Erppo]

It's sloppy design having an unintentional scoring bug that you need to learn to exploit each time if you're playing for score.

Where did you come up with the idea that the hits from laser countering are unintentional? That doesn't really make sense, there are plenty of lasers in the game that are there clearly just for that purpose. The first tower in st4 even has increased health so it feels pretty clear that hypering it is supposed to be intentional.

Even IF you start with the assumption that it's unintentional, how woud it be bad? It's non-trivial and interesting to do, and it puts stage 2 more in line with the other stages in terms of payoff.

[Skykid]

I know hypering purple lasers is intentional, but I thought there was a stage 2 midboss trick that causes the score to leap massively?

I might be remembering the superplay wrong.

[Erppo]

It's so fun to see completely made up "facts" used as arguments. It appears I was just wasting my time writing these posts.

E: To be more clear, there's no way to get massive scores from stage 2, that stage simply isn't worth much. Even when done optimally it's less than 20 billion.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Considering getting to Omote is just a matter of grabbing all the bees (and you could fire off bombs to get the ones during the laser wheels safely), if you consider an Omote clear, maybe DFK looks more interesting to play for just survival? I do think it plays very differently depending on if you're going seriously for score or just a dirty clear though. That said, I've not gotten a 1-All yet, I probably should actually work on that; when I first got the game I had more fun aiming for Ura Novice (still can't quite get in that loop), and I kept missing the 1-All in arcade because Stage 5 would just mow through my resources, was not used at all to it. It's probably like Futari Stage 3 though, overrated in difficulty and probably much less evil to do consistently once you invest a bit of time learning it?

[CStarFlare]

You just need to be willing to use your resources in stage 5, rather than let the game take them. Manual bombs last much longer than autobombs, so you might be able to get through the laser wheels with 3 or 4 total instead of losing lives.

But yes, the laser wheels are also learnable. The rest of the stage doesn't really stand out as being that hard, aside from being very long.

[Skykid]

It's so fun to see completely made up "facts" used as arguments. It appears I was just wasting my time writing these posts

I'd agree with that. And since you're nitpicking semantics rather than addressing the general theme that DFK is under par as an overall product, we're wasting time reading them too.

[Erppo]

I'd agree with that. And since you're nitpicking semantics rather than addressing the general theme that DFK is under par as an overall product, we're wasting time reading them too.

So it's "semantics" that the only example you used to back this up had nothing to do with reality?

[nasty_wolverine]

I'd agree with that. And since you're nitpicking semantics rather than addressing the general theme that DFK is under par as an overall product, we're wasting time reading them too.

I am interested to know what makes it so "under par", and what you are considering as "par".

[Weak Boson]

I quite like DFK. I was a bit bemused about how easy the 1-ALL was when I first got it: that's the kind of challenge you look forward to in a game like this and it wasn't there - or rather, I couldn't see it because I was playing it in the easiest possible way. And that's understandable right? Normally these games are hard enough at their easiest so I still expected to get destroyed.

Anyway since then I've tried playing power style for scoring and survival as well as getting into the loop with strong and had a lot of fun (not that I got very far with any of it but hey) and it's still pretty fun to play bomb style and shoot and dodge some stuff without having to calculate every place in the entire game in which I should deploy bombs to reduce risk optimally.

[Icarus]

The same could be said of similar nonsense in other games too; Pink Sweets and SDOJ for instance.

I have to disagree with this.
Firstly, there's nothing forcing you to play with the "scoring bugs" - using your example, overflow in Saidaioujou, infinite lives in Pink Sweets, etc - and the games are just as enjoyable without going anywhere near them.
The other thing is, if you're not at a level where you can confidently access and utilise these bugs in full scoring runs - and lets face it, some of these bugs are not trivial to access - then why worry about them at all?
Seems like people make a bigger deal out of this than necessary.

[KAI]

Pinksweets' bug is shit tho, "don't milk too much or you can trigger it by accident".

[Skykid]

I'd agree with that. And since you're nitpicking semantics rather than addressing the general theme that DFK is under par as an overall product, we're wasting time reading them too.

So it's "semantics" that the only example you used to back this up had nothing to do with reality?

Sentence doesn't make sense, but to reiterate: I already clarified that I must be incorrectly remembering the stage 2 midboss scoring trick and its weight. Why you keep harping on about this one thing is odd. Let me know when you find closure.

I'd agree with that. And since you're nitpicking semantics rather than addressing the general theme that DFK is under par as an overall product, we're wasting time reading them too.

I am interested to know what makes it so "under par", and what you are considering as "par".

Actually I like DFK vanilla a lot more than I did originally, but even after spending time learning to play it properly I still appreciate some of the criticism regarding it being abstruse and uneven is valid. It's far from a poor game, and the 'par' would of course be other Pachis - I just don't think the many ideas that went into its structuring were necessary, and it would have benefited from a simpler approach.

The same could be said of similar nonsense in other games too; Pink Sweets and SDOJ for instance.

I have to disagree with this.
Firstly, there's nothing forcing you to play with the "scoring bugs" - using your example, overflow in Saidaioujou, infinite lives in Pink Sweets, etc - and the games are just as enjoyable without going anywhere near them.
The other thing is, if you're not at a level where you can confidently access and utilise these bugs in full scoring runs - and lets face it, some of these bugs are not trivial to access - then why worry about them at all?
Seems like people make a bigger deal out of this than necessary.

You get me wrong, I'm only drawing parallels with games that feature unintentional exploitable coding errors. Yes they can be ignored and yes they're often extraordinarily difficult to trigger - and I don't love those games any less for them - but we can all appreciate that it's not necessarily the best way to separate high score tables.

[DanMagoo]

Raa people get so testy on this forum so quickly!

For my 2 pence/cents/yen worth as a novice to this scene, DFK seems to be built quite reasonably in order to accommodate all the different groups who might want to play it. It never ceases to amaze me that any group of humans would consent to paying PER CREDIT to learn these games but since some people do, it seems reasonable to me to implement a voluntary mechanic (bomb style) that allows them to explore further without scoring. Higher difficulty later on creates more arcade cash flow and helps the game gain the vital seal of approval from the hard core which will encourage eventual console sales. But not on Playstation, you understand...