Ibara emulated (read first!)

[orange]

Seems like I will not be recieving any roms from Guru.

Bcass informed me I was entitled to a copy of the dump according to guru's site / rules, so sent a polite mail asking for them as I sent the board,

he says that after dumping the recent boards, and some complaints or something that occured on Mameworld.. no one can be trusted with any Cave ROMs until such time as they can be emulated without Cave objecting.

uh how about no one can be trusted with any roms then because if he isn't a fucking idiot he'll see that he can't set down a broad rule and then decide on a case-by-case basis how he wants to apply it

[Ex-Cyber]

uh how about no one can be trusted with any roms then because if he isn't a fucking idiot he'll see that he can't set down a broad rule and then decide on a case-by-case basis how he wants to apply it

It sounds like the problem is that they've been asked/warned with respect to Cave games specifically:

> So I can loan my DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou.

Yeah, except that we have an email on file from Cave promising to smash us gaijin if we ever emulate Dai-Ou-Jou.

[orange]

that doesn't really take away any merit from what i'm getting at

[Keade]

he says that after dumping the recent boards, and some complaints or something that occured on Mameworld.. no one can be trusted with any Cave ROMs until such time as they can be emulated without Cave objecting.

I wonder how we are supposed to know when that will be (upcoming ports aside)
Cave certainly won't get in touch with the MAME team, telling them, "you can work on it now, it's okay".

[Ex-Cyber]

he says that after dumping the recent boards, and some complaints or something that occured on Mameworld.. no one can be trusted with any Cave ROMs until such time as they can be emulated without Cave objecting.

I wonder how we are supposed to know when that will be (upcoming ports aside)
Cave certainly won't get in touch with the MAME team, telling them, "you can work on it now, it's okay".

I don't know what happened behind the scenes, but Arika asked them to pull the patch adding TGM2 back in 2005 and it quietly showed up again a few years later.

[gameoverDude]

uh how about no one can be trusted with any roms then because if he isn't a fucking idiot he'll see that he can't set down a broad rule and then decide on a case-by-case basis how he wants to apply it

It sounds like the problem is that they've been asked/warned with respect to Cave games specifically:

> So I can loan my DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou.

Yeah, except that we have an email on file from Cave promising to smash us gaijin if we ever emulate Dai-Ou-Jou.

I wouldn't send Guru a board after hearing pixelcorps' story, but I'd donate money toward one instead. If I did donate a board and wasn't given the ROM to fix it with in case it failed, I'd feel a little cheated. I would not share my copy of the ROM if I were given one. Personally I don't think we'll see DOJ/Espgaluda 1/Ketsui in MAME until 2015-2016. By then Cave may care a lot less if at all.

Hopefully Tetris TGM2 is in for good this time. This is like what happened with Fighting Layer - gone awhile and then back in. It may be too early for TGM3 however.

[orange]

tgm3 runs on xp embedded so you wouldn't need something shitty like mame

[Ed Oscuro]

he says that after dumping the recent boards, and some complaints or something that occured on Mameworld.. no one can be trusted with any Cave ROMs until such time as they can be emulated without Cave objecting.

Probably the same shit that happened in this thread.

Anyway, again it sounds like legal worries and Guru not wanting to be known as the source of a leak. It's not likely that the ROMs are going up in smoke as long as he has them, so I wouldn't worry about it. Ironically, though, the board owner is the only person who is entitled to a backup, not him. I wouldn't point that out since he's just as likely to say "fine, deleted it off my drive"

[pixelcorps]

so where did the ibara roms come from?

[GaijinPunch]

I'd like to see a "Toaplan Ultimate Collection" on console. I wonder who owns the rights to those games these days?

Stay tuned for the answer.

[orange]

he says that after dumping the recent boards, and some complaints or something that occured on Mameworld.. no one can be trusted with any Cave ROMs until such time as they can be emulated without Cave objecting.

Probably the same shit that happened in this thread.

Anyway, again it sounds like legal worries and Guru not wanting to be known as the source of a leak. It's not likely that the ROMs are going up in smoke as long as he has them, so I wouldn't worry about it. Ironically, though, the board owner is the only person who is entitled to a backup, not him. I wouldn't point that out since he's just as likely to say "fine, deleted it off my drive"

ok so is guru literally the only person who will dump shit if you send him a pcb or something that just seems foolish

[Udderdude]

he says that after dumping the recent boards, and some complaints or something that occured on Mameworld.. no one can be trusted with any Cave ROMs until such time as they can be emulated without Cave objecting.

Probably the same shit that happened in this thread.

Anyway, again it sounds like legal worries and Guru not wanting to be known as the source of a leak. It's not likely that the ROMs are going up in smoke as long as he has them, so I wouldn't worry about it. Ironically, though, the board owner is the only person who is entitled to a backup, not him. I wouldn't point that out since he's just as likely to say "fine, deleted it off my drive"

ok so is guru literally the only person who will dump shit if you send him a pcb or something that just seems foolish

Sure you could find someone else willing to do it, for a metric shit-ton of money.

[orange]

well damn

[Evrain]

well damn

To be honest, I was expecting that answer - remember what I wrote in the first post? He would've been damn naive not to think the FBA team is MUCH less compelled to emulate the thing, let alone the fact data on PGM is public, so any knowledgeable programmer could have a shot at it, and quite possibly succeed. Somewhat sad, as someone pointed out since boards are sent there to be DUMPED, not to be hoarded indefinitely, although I fully udnerstand that with the currenst state of things, it would be suicidal to emulate. Neverthless, it's breaking of his own rules. Very ironic, given how he wanted to crack the NVRAM "encoding" of DOJ BL boards.
The problem, after discussing with people much more skilled than me, are the MASKROMS, which are a pain to desolder and dump: there are indeed other people out there who can do it, for money or just to get it done in place of Guru (I recall other dumpers), but again, it's CAVE we're talking about: if he knows what's going to happen (because it is going to happen, I'm afraid), he will refuse. Also, he might be referring again to the Crazy Otto board, which was dumped and then hoarded by the pcb owner, just like marble madness, but seeing how mamedev is quite picky with CAVE itself, I'd go with the "if we dump it, you'll emulate it, so even if you paid for a board we are going to tell you when that board can be dumped".

Neverthless, perhaps that Ketsui board should be shipped back to pixelcorps? It's useless to be kept there, if nothing is going to be done with it.

[gray117]

Guru has some 'rules' ... perhaps he had best refer to them as targets/ ambitions.... Because you can bet it's the businesses and lawyers that actually make the real rules.

I think we're at a very awkward point where we're starting to see the first signs of a collision between 'professional' emulation (or porting, and even 'porting') and the amateur scene. [Something narrowly avoided with cps-3 (?)]

Mame has 'gotten away with it' in terms of what it does simply because it has largely flown beneath the radar and on the grey side of several interpretations of the law. Plus I'm sure in some ways it helps as a form of marketing - keeping names and titles alive - albeit only a slight heart beat; all-in-all most companies have been fairly content to let the preservation side occur even if there is an extent of infringement - it hasn't really effected their current interests.

However, clearly whilst past precedance is a good indicator, times are changing. In the past - apart from the odd compilations to test the water - there was no real market, and no real distribution method, for cheap old games. Mame [and other emulations in general] will/are coming under more and more pressure as old properties are becoming profitable/re-mined - as a result insurers will insist the property should be protected. Nintendo has fairly successfully discouraged the visibility of their own properties on emualtion distrubution for this very reason; which has not elimainated the infringement, but at least restricted to an acceptable level in [terms of old roms - of course they still face great problems with 'current' generation piracy].

It's not suprising that this amateur [I don't mean bad - but its not like its a professional activity] effort does have some cracks in its plans/guidlines/ambitions/rules/communication ...

Hell, there are professional outfits with whole departments who fail to give their clients decent turnarounds and responses... Let alone pressured induviduals.

As microsoft launches it's new arcade service [name escapes me], perhaps with the pressure we're starting to see poeple like the Guru under, perhaps these are the signs of the start of a progression similar to the napstar -> itunes evolution ... As business catches up to innovators and attempts to wrestle away the market...

[Evrain]

Nintendo truly is an amazing example of how certain games are at times used, reused, recycled perhaps (and after 6 years taking care of them as a reviewer and journalist, I know - think the entire Pokèmon ordeal, or the sudden revival of Sin & Punishment, or again that shameful Contra Rebirth), but behind such ambitions there is always a certain will to reach the widest amount of users available, something that is gradually becoming more and more common given how most consoles are region-free, and those who are not either abide to corporate/local laws (Microsoft) or utter stupidity (Nintendo).

CAVE has always been, as far as I can tell from my experience or lack thereof, the swan of danmaku (as in the cream of the crop), however it's amazing how it spectacularly fails at proper marketing, no wonder its subsidiaries help keep the entire raft afloat (Beads Mania and such); moreover, since bullet hells are admittedly a niche, expanding the audience is critical. Knowing they are receding from plans of PC releases (mind you, CAVE is purportedly switching to PC based hardware, which means easy conversion + Steam, and we all know what happened and still happens with Beatmania IIDX*, so they should account piracy of some form if they wish to enter mainstream like that) and even from region free is a blow in the guts of those that via MAME discovered this world (ESPrade be blessed), went to the appropriate lengths to buy Ketsui DS, and now discover party's over. From a commercial standpoint and assuming no relevant economic factors are to be accounted, this is nonsensical and even more damaging than the monkey that came up with the Wii's original security system.

Back to the matter at hand, however, I agree with MAME's need not to meddle too much in dangerous territory, as it's the only significative effort in documenting arcade hardware and the benefits that come with it (resurrecting dead boards, think CPS2); however, its rules do fluctuate way too fast, and way too tied to insiders' wishes. As pixelcorps pointed out, if Ketsui is too new, and CAVE roms so dangerous, why emulating Ibara? it's nonsensical and treading on a thin string, seeing how SH3 = 3rd gen = dai Fukkatsu if it was to be dumped. Quoting an italian MAME forum member "it should not have been done", so I think it's illogic to disregard a hardware that would need some attention (again, PGM code is basically what ElSemi did and little more, the driver has been abandoned). I'm a little surprised though that he withdrew his own word on the matter, but he can do that, since he is one of the very few that can dump PCBs. Did he mention that "CAVE rule" back then, pixelcorps?

Anyway, guess we'll have to wait for 2016 to find out, unless another dumper pops out and tears CAVE PGM boards apart (would be funny, think SuperModel or ZiNc).


* for those who don't know, these games have been copied, cracked, someone whipped up a VB.net (!!!!!!!! Shame on them!) interface for config and poof, hacked. I frown upon this, but it's a sign of how things are quickly moving towards a situation where it will not be a matter of PCB's anymore, or ports can be virtually easier and cheaper to produce.

[Ed Oscuro]

the Crazy Otto board, which was dumped and then hoarded by the pcb owner, just like marble madness,

Wai-wai-wait a second, that's not being fair to the board owner (member of the original team IIRC). He made a simple mistake in going public and was worried about Namco smashing him (I don't think there was a real problem but you never know, his choice to err on the safe side). In any case the ROMs are safe now.

Add me as another voice in favor of MAME not getting destroyed just for the sake of sticking it to companies. Sure, emulation is legal in the states, but that doesn't stop anybody from filing lawsuits (plus CAVE is certainly going to try to hunt down whoever is responsible for ROM leaks).

[Evrain]

the Crazy Otto board, which was dumped and then hoarded by the pcb owner, just like marble madness,

Wai-wai-wait a second, that's not being fair to the board owner (member of the original team IIRC). He made a simple mistake in going public and was worried about Namco smashing him (I don't think there was a real problem but you never know, his choice to err on the safe side). In any case the ROMs are safe now.

Add me as another voice in favor of MAME not getting destroyed just for the sake of sticking it to companies. Sure, emulation is legal in the states, but that doesn't stop anybody from filing lawsuits (plus CAVE is certainly going to try to hunt down whoever is responsible for ROM leaks).

I have always been pro-MAME, as long as there wasn't any trouble "poisoning" the scene. It's funny to see how things always turn out like this when cave is involved
As for Crazy Otto, I do agree with what you said, just wrote too fast and forgot a few data on the matter: emulation has always lived, and died, from such trouble unfortunately, happens when you walk on a grey line.
And, out of boredom I dropped the proms to IQ_132, I'm curious to hear his answer (confirmed also a few facts about the PGM hardware post 2001, like the similar 68k encryption, how Guru is not the only trustworthy one that can dump the board ARM7 aside, and so on).

[Evrain]

Won't be helpful at all seeing the turn of events, but for posterity, here it is (from IQ_132 of course, not me ):

Code: Select all

static const unsigned char ketsui_tab[256] = { // IGS0004 RD1021015
	0x49, 0x47, 0x53, 0x30, 0x30, 0x30, 0x34, 0x52, 0x44, 0x31, 0x30, 0x32, 0x31, 0x30, 0x31, 0x35,
 	0x7C, 0x49, 0x27, 0xA5, 0xFF, 0xF6, 0x98, 0x2D, 0x0F, 0x3D, 0x12, 0x23, 0xE2, 0x30, 0x50, 0xCF,
 	0xF1, 0x82, 0xF0, 0xCE, 0x48, 0x44, 0x5B, 0xF3, 0x0D, 0xDF, 0xF8, 0x5D, 0x50, 0x53, 0x91, 0xD9,
 	0x12, 0xAF, 0x05, 0x7A, 0x98, 0xD0, 0x2F, 0x76, 0xF1, 0x5D, 0x17, 0x44, 0xC5, 0x03, 0x58, 0xF4,
 	0x61, 0xEE, 0xD1, 0xCE, 0x00, 0x88, 0x90, 0x2E, 0x5C, 0x76, 0xFB, 0x9F, 0x75, 0xCF, 0x40, 0x37,
 	0xA1, 0x9F, 0x00, 0x32, 0xD5, 0x9C, 0x37, 0xD2, 0x32, 0x27, 0x6F, 0x76, 0xD3, 0x86, 0x25, 0xF9,
 	0xD6, 0x60, 0x7B, 0x4E, 0xA9, 0x7A, 0x20, 0x59, 0x96, 0xB1, 0x7D, 0x10, 0x92, 0x37, 0x22, 0xD2,
 	0x42, 0x12, 0x6F, 0x07, 0x4F, 0xD2, 0x87, 0xFA, 0xEB, 0x92, 0x71, 0xF3, 0xA4, 0x31, 0x91, 0x98,
 	0x68, 0xD2, 0x47, 0x86, 0xDA, 0x92, 0xE5, 0x2B, 0xD4, 0x89, 0xD7, 0xE7, 0x3D, 0x03, 0x0D, 0x63,
 	0x0C, 0x00, 0xAC, 0x31, 0x9D, 0xE9, 0xF6, 0xA5, 0x34, 0x95, 0x77, 0xF2, 0xCF, 0x7C, 0x72, 0x89,
 	0x31, 0x3A, 0x8B, 0xAE, 0x2B, 0x47, 0xB6, 0x5D, 0x2D, 0xF5, 0x5F, 0x5C, 0x0E, 0xAB, 0xDB, 0xA1, 
	0x18, 0x60, 0x0E, 0xE6, 0x58, 0x5B, 0x5E, 0x8B, 0x24, 0x29, 0xD8, 0xAC, 0xED, 0xDF, 0xA2, 0x83,
 	0x46, 0x91, 0xA1, 0xFF, 0x35, 0x13, 0x6A, 0xA5, 0xBA, 0xEF, 0x6E, 0xA8, 0x9E, 0xA6, 0x62, 0x44,
 	0x7E, 0x2C, 0xED, 0x60, 0x17, 0x9E, 0x96, 0x64, 0xD3, 0x46, 0xEC, 0x58, 0x95, 0xD1, 0xF7, 0x3E,
 	0xC2, 0xCF, 0xDF, 0xB0, 0x90, 0x6C, 0xDB, 0xBE, 0x93, 0x6D, 0x5D, 0x02, 0x85, 0x6E, 0x7C, 0x05,
 	0x55, 0x5A, 0xA1, 0xD7, 0x73, 0x2B, 0x76, 0xE9, 0x5B, 0xE4, 0x0C, 0x2E, 0x60, 0xCB, 0x4B, 0x72};

void pgm_decrypt_ketsui(){
	int i;
	unsigned short *src = (unsigned short *)rom;
	for (i = 0; i < len/2; i++)
	{
		unsigned short x = src[i];
		if ((i & 0x040480) != 0x000080) x ^= 0x0001;
		if ((i & 0x004008) == 0x004008) x ^= 0x0002;
		if ((i & 0x000030) == 0x000010) x ^= 0x0004;
		if ((i & 0x000042) != 0x000042) x ^= 0x0008;
		if ((i & 0x008100) == 0x008000) x ^= 0x0010;
		if ((i & 0x002004) != 0x000004) x ^= 0x0020;
		if ((i & 0x011800) != 0x010000) x ^= 0x0040;
		if ((i & 0x000820) == 0x000820) x ^= 0x0080;
		x ^= ketsui_tab[i & 0xff] << 8;
		src[i] = x;
	}}

At least, it's something. Untested, should work on both revisions of the prom. On a personal note, the guy is an excellent fella: polite, glad to help those willing to learn, skilled. If he could also desolder maskroms, it would be perfect

EDIT: I screwed up copying from a previous mail from IQ, edited with the correct table.

[bcass]

This decrypts the PROM? What's left to do then? Obtain dumps of the BIOS and the ARM code? When guru says he has dumped it, I'm assuming he is only referring to the PROM (which had already been dumped and is freely available) and the BIOS? Also, when a chip is decapped (the ARM chip in this case), does it become useless? If Cave are so sensitive about this, how come they haven't contacted the site that is currently hosting the PROMs?

[rtw]

This decrypts the PROM? What's left to do then? Obtain dumps of the BIOS and the ARM code? When guru says he has dumped it, I'm assuming he is only referring to the PROM (which had already been dumped and is freely available) and the BIOS? Also, when a chip is decapped (the ARM chip in this case), does it become useless.

The whole PGM consists of:

. Sound ROMs
. Graphic MASK ROMs
. ARM Bullet Processor (encrypted)
. Program code (encrypted) stored in an EPROM
. BIOS (Embedded in the program code ROM)

The only ROM dumped from Ketsui is the Program code, it is made available so that people can fix their PCB's to the new version.

[bcass]

So presumably, guru has dumped everything except the ARM code? And we now have the facility to decrypt the Program Code and the BIOS? Which would mean that the remaining tasks are to dump the Sound ROMs, the Graphic MASK ROMs and the ARM code?

[RetroRepair]

. Sound ROMs
. Graphic MASK ROMs
. ARM Bullet Processor (encrypted)
. Program code (encrypted) stored in an EPROM
. BIOS (Embedded in the program code ROM)

I knew it! So if say DOJ was dumped then added to the PGM driver then had the PROM decrypted we'd have the same situation as DDP2 where you'd get no bullets?

Makes a lot of sense why DDP2 isn't fully emulated then, since if it was it'd be fairly easy to figure out how to adapt the ARM code for the other PGM Cave games.

. BIOS (Embedded in the program code ROM)

What's that other EPROM marks as "BIOS" then? The PGM BIOS is on it's own mask rom?

[RetroRepair]

Out of interest, what's different on each Cave PGM board? Just the ROMs and encryption or the ARM code too?

[rtw]

Out of interest, what's different on each Cave PGM board? Just the ROMs and encryption or the ARM code too?

Espgaluda & Ketsui have got the BIOS merged in the program ROM or removed alltogether, it's hard to tell.

All the ROMs, encryption method and ARM code is different.

[RetroRepair]

Not too surprising. So does anyone know what maskroms are what on the Cave boards and their equivilent eproms? Specifically DOJ? I'm assuming they are 16 & 32mb.

[Evrain]

Sorry guys, copied from an "outdated" exchange the wrong decrypt table, edited the post above with the right one.
Anyway, IQ sure is a great guy, and in a week of exchanges a lot of interesting tidbits surfaced: for example, if you have a DDP2 cartridge somewhere in your room, find it, 'cause turns out it uses the IGS027 and not the 027A. Translation: external RAM for the ARM7 + ElSemi's trojan = full dump. I know, the game sucks, but it's one less to go and less hacks in the driver, god bless.
He also pointed out he is glad to find others capable of providing dumps to study and plug into the driver; the encryption for the PROM is, substantially, a matter of analyzing the dump and finding the correct values, the algo is the same (as rtw already pointed out), so we could at least see the main menu and who knows, Day of Judgment from the sound test. Oh yes... *Homer-like drooling* Anything 2001+ is substantially "plug and play" (note the quotation marks) in FBA.
Black boxing the ARM7 for CAVE games is suicidal, however we could get a few bits and hints having DDP2 ARM

A personal theory of mine is: since we know, with various hacks, how to at least make sure the ARM doesn't interfere with basic decryption, and knowing Ketsui and Galuda are on the same codebase, having a single dump and understanding the bullets' decryption routine could lead to bruteforcing our way around the bloody protection device (ironic, since once piracy subsides and preservation sets in a decryption device is your worst enemy).

Anyway, without the dump, it's just a decryption table. But it's a step forward.

[bcass]

So as far as the Ketsui board is concerned, we need to find someone who can dump the Sound ROMs and the Graphic MASK ROMs? It's probably best that this conversation continues in private between the people who own the board and anyone who has any ideas about who can dump the remainder of it. Maybe a private facebook group or something similar? Failing that, I'm an admin at another forum and could create a private section for those concerned.

[clp]

why be elitist ? keep the conversation here as its interesting , no need for "special" places .

[bcass]

Given the legal sensitivity of the matter, there's every need. Nothing elitist about it, just common sense. Progress could easily be made now, but doing it all in the open is going to jeopardise the project. It's also likely sailing close to the wind with regards to the rules on this forum since we're essentially talking about ways to pirate a game.